podcasting 2.0 for February 25 2022, episode 75 We're liquid
defying for love and making up new words as we do it. Hello
everybody, welcome to the official board meeting of
podcasting. 2.0 everything going on to podcast index.org, the
podcast namespace, and of course, everything that we talk
about in podcasting. Next up social and at the watercooler.
I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country on
Alabama the man who wraps up your recommendations my friend
on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, please say hello to
Mr. Dave Jones. liquid liquid quit find for love AV
invasion check if you've been invaded. I'm not I have not been
yet.
Hold on. Any Russians? No, no, I've not been invaded yet.
I'll clean here from Oakland.
Man, please don't get don't get me started. Don't get me
started. I'm not I just recommend everybody watch wag
the dog and you'll know my stance on this. Have you ever
seen that movie?
Crazy 48 hours and have not I've always heard it's one of those
things that perpetually in the in the social parlance, but I've
never seen it.
We should actually get that trending on Netflix because it's
Dustin Hoffman. It's it's a comedy. It's a funny movie. But
it explains so well. What I think we're living through right
now. Anyway. It's alright. Because that's why we're here to
save the world.
Yet one podcast at a time. That's right. While we run with
once one Yeah, one, one half as protocol or
anything but half as Dave. The the protocol protocols are
great, man, there's so much going on. And we have a great
guest on today's show. So we can bring him in pretty quickly. So
anything specifically we need to talk about right off the top
here at the board meeting. Some kind of buzz now what's going
on?
Well, I mean, I've been doing some stuff that hasn't been
super visible. Over the last couple of weeks, really. I mean,
there was a hell of had released that. And that took some time. I
was that's a great release. By the way. Thank you. Thank you
for doing all that for the export. The CSV export is
outstanding. Thanks for teaching me how to import that into
Excel. Oh, yeah. With with auto pivot tables. Oh,
it's a game changer.
Yeah, I mean, especially for someone who's made pivot tables,
like, can I select all this and then I got to select which
inputs and this is just like import from CSV? Okay.
Well, I feel like it's stable. Now. I feel like there's a lot
of there's, you know, bugs or a side effect of speed, mostly for
the most part. And, you know, the faster you push something
out the door, the less chance it gets to be tested.
Oh, so you do in this, you know, after hours, your lunch break. I
mean, this is not your your prime directive.
But that, but I feel like after I guess this is the third
release. Yeah, third release, I feel like we're Third time's a
charm in the field we got we're pretty stable. Now when it comes
to getting those payloads out reliably and not having any
loose or what what had happened was so Chris Fisher, of Jupiter
broadcasting and they do like Linux unplugged and Linux Action
News and coder radio. They they're heavy users of hell pad
now. And so he had emailed me and said, hey, you know, our
health had just stopped, just stopped updating. And this is,
this is the this is the standard bug now. Right? yellow pad just
died, you know, it just stopped.
Well, now, I've seen some of this can also just be Umbral.
Yeah, a lot of people running unrolls, and they do have their
issues.
Well, what was unique about this one is he said I'm looking at.
He said, I opened up to see so these are coders. These are
developers, which is amazing to work with. When you have other
coders giving you bug reports is beautiful, because they don't
just say like, Hey, it didn't work.
Oh, come on. I'm better than that. And no. No, they say, Hey,
I think you're getting trapped here on an escaped characters
character. That was a Unicode ID three centuries ago.
Yeah, they give you they give you all kinds of context.
Beautiful, beautiful, lovely, luscious context. And like he
said, a help had stopped dating, but I know we're getting boost
because I opened up the SQL lite database. Right. And I see new
entries and I was like, yeah, there we go. So it turned out
that what the issue was so I was I was stripping is a couple
things for safety. Within help me help as a JavaScript based,
you know, single page app. Is that what you want it what
you're what you have is a scenario where you have random
people on the internet sending you content, right? Yes. And you
have to play defense,
emojis. That was amazing. The emojis worked. I mean, that was
that by itself was such a crazy, crazy experience.
Yes, so the first, you know, prime prime directive number
one, when it comes to protecting your JavaScript from random user
generated content is, you know, tag tag stripping within HTML,
right? Okay, got it in, definitely want to cleanse that.
You don't want just anybody to be able to send you random HTML
tags, and then render them. So I handle that a couple of ways. I
built a strip tags function, excuse me, that would strip out
HTML tags in the message content in but what I was doing with
that was actually running it over the entire JSON block after
that was rendered since JSON. Is not is that is the greater than
less than characters are not special characters within JSON.
I'm like, okay, I can just run that on the JSON block. And
that'll that'll take care of it. That'll take care of, of
stripping tags out of everything. If somebody decided
to get geeky, get cute, and put a script tag. Na,
yay.
Great stuff. Yeah. But unfortunately, that's not in
retrospect. Clearly, that has an issue. So one of the the issue
that was happening was, somebody sent them a message. And they
had a little ASCII emoji in the message of the heart, which is
opened, which is less than sign. Three. So sideways heart.
That's Ah, right.
That never closes.
Oh, man. Okay, that's obscure or nice. In the the effect it had
was that that might have been me. I'm always doing hearts with
asking, Can
I do that, too? That didn't hit me in my brain is a problem. But
anyway, so that clearly is a problem, because you open the
tag and never close it. So it would wipe out the end of the
Jace, there was half a JSON block in there. So just totally
screw it up. Oh, anyway, went back and cleared that did proper
escape, you know, at field level escaping on all the tags and put
that implemented that as a trade.
So now is this is this now a GitHub project where people can
start contributing is someone you know, I mean, I don't want
to default to you. But I mean, is this now going to be
enhanced? I mean, a lot of people have great ideas.
Hopefully, some coders can do some stuff, because man.
Yeah, a couple of people have already forked it and stuff. And
we've already had a couple contributions to do that have
been merged in. Yeah. It's definitely an open project.
Anybody can. Anybody can stick me a stick whatever they want to
in there, as long as it makes some sense. Nice. No, yeah. No,
it's good release. And I think the CSV export, there's a couple
of bugs I found in that as a result of you sending me your
database, because you, your database is so big, it lives
what she said. I'm sorry, I had to do it.
Your database is so is so big. That it gave lots of opportunity
for
for crap. Yeah, fairy furniture for Well, what I you know, I
just wasn't prepared to start posting bug reports yet. But
there's definitely some apps do put things in different fields,
particularly if there's longer messages. Some things get like,
I think the podcast name sometimes gets switched around,
that could be in the export for some reason. Or it could be the
way some apps and I think pod friend might send something
weird sometimes. But I'll have to love to look deeper. I just
looked at the Excel sheet. And I remember like, Oh, this isn't
this isn't a wrong field.
Like recently with it with this new release? Yeah. Send me a
screenshot because that the CSV that sounds like if you have a
field appearing in a different place that sounds like it's
something with the parsing of ML to create this CSV job by hand.
So it's possible that a delimiters sneaking through and
places not getting escaped properly or some
right okay thing, but I mean, it's small thing. It's a very,
actually, I'm opening it up now. Let me just see if I can see it
offhand.
Yeah, if you can pinpoint it. I can probably tell pretty quick
what it is and fix it. Yeah.
It's pod four. Okay, pod friends interesting comics through
blogger, pod friend and then of course under the message you
don't know how funny that is to me under Message howdy Tina and
Adam and then under pot. Oh, that's what's changed instead of
the podcast saying curry in the keeper. It continues with the
rest of his message greetings from Eurotrash content. What I
have to do is voice greetings from Euro trash content. I wish
you fast recovery from Corona if you're bored, feel free to visit
my blog all comic strip blog.com Yo, and then under another
episode it continues otherwise just relax. Don't booze too
much. That's only slobs like me and Jean our identity
genetically alcohol resistant.
resistant.
So and then it moves in the pocket. Yeah, and then then it
moves Korean the keeper and Kerviel Cuf to different fields
in the to the column one do to other fields in the Excel. Okay,
so it sounds like a great shot. Okay, you know, dick pics are
illegal now in the UK. So I got to be careful what I send you.
Yes. Yeah, I can. It's funny. There must be some. I don't know
how that can happen. You know, I The funny thing about bugs is
you never know how they happen until you find them. Oh, there
it is.
I'll just send you the CSV file. You can take a look at it
yourself. Okay, yeah. Beautiful. That's probably probably the
easiest. Well, since we're talking about messaging.
Actually, before we bring in our guests, I just wanted to mention
one thing. I was listening to pod land as I do. I was boosting
pod land, I should say. I'm a I'm a hate booster. Oh, no, not
hate, but I'm always like, No, this is wrong. Here's 300,003
And three, three SATs that proves that you're wrong.
You can use that to the podcasters doing that to their
benefit. But
remember, we monetize trolls with podcasting. 2.0. This is
our monitor. Yes, yeah. We certainly monetized trolls. But
there was one discussion, which I just wanted to say something
about and get your input on. And I'd seen James is his proposal
for a replacement for the owner email tag in the RSS feed?
Yes. I'd like to talk about that as well. Yeah. Okay. I
have two things to say about it. One. Are you kidding me? I mean,
yeah, really, I mean, this is, I have had, I've had my name and
my email address in my feed for a for 15 years. And the only
thing that's, that doesn't even bother me is I get lots of
publicists and PR people, I get on their mailing list. And then
these lists are created and they're shared. And quite
honestly, I look at I look at it gets to it's usually podcasting
related. And a lot of it is like, Hey, I've went to his new
service. here's this, here's that. And now if I wanted to, I
could put a different email address in there. And so that,
you know, we go to a different box. If that was a big problem.
It is by far the easiest way to identify ownership. There's
issues with idiots who lose email access and but the same
can be said for a token. And also, I believe that the spec
cannot be fucked with what is the spec? That RSS 2.0?
Yeah, but emails not but that email is not a required tag,
or this you don't have to put it in you can not put anything in
at all, then find that leave it out, you get no spam. Yeah. And
then you and you can't then you can't certify or no claim your
feed off shit.
But as I vehemently disagree, okay, in that, here's, here's
why a bunch of reasons. Number one legal, because if you have
to validate an email, then you have to store it in some way.
And once you do that, then you are then you have to start
following things like GDPR and that kind of thing with personal
content. For legal reason. It's much cleaner if you can just
avoid ever dealing with an email address and only deal with some
sort of app. You know, handshake. I think that makes
that makes the the O auth. Or app handshake validation process
a lot easier to deal with. For people who don't want to have to
deal with regulation. That would be the first one that justified
the second one is that with This could be combined, this, this
can actually make, make it easier to do other things. Also,
if you have a pass through sort of handshakes situation. One of
the things that we've been talking about for a while is a
sort of an openness subscription mechanism where you can allow
people to claim to claim a subscription to a feed. And I
was looking through pod pass. Now, that's a spec that was
designed. It came at a radio public. And I'm not sure who the
actual, like creator of it was. But it was, let's see who who
was it. I think Mike Kane never recipt sent this to me
originally. In because we were talking about as Jake Shapiro
who's now at Apple, but he was at Radio public when he when
this came out. This is a protocol for how to do the same
sort of handshake thing where you can say, Okay, here's a
here's a subscription only podcast, there's this private
podcast that I want to subscribe to. I've actually already
subscribed to it. I subscribe to it on this other on this other
service.
Okay, stop. Yes, we can agree on this very easily. It's just an
addition and not a replacement. Yes. Okay. I'm good with that. I
love having my email address in my feed. I love getting the
problem here is not the spam. The problem is a competitor
spams spam to accompany spam to competitors. Clients targeted
them specifically, which is now considered, I guess, not
gentlemanly. But that's that's that's when it became a problem
not for the 1000s of spams I've received that no one ever
complained until it became a problem because people are doing
guerilla marketing with it. Correct.
From the standpoint Well, that's
what the story, the story the story started there. The story
started with, oh my god, I can't believe a caste spammed all of
bus sprouts customers and said You should leave Buzzsprout
Well, no, yes. No, that is that. That's, that's that's the story
though. That is the story. That's what that's but but if
you brought if you step back and broaden it out to like, in not
just that story, which was a douche move to do. But if you
step back and say, Okay, now what is like you call it a
problem? You said, it's not a problem, unless, you know, until
it becomes this guerilla marketing thing? Well, depends
on a defined problem, but can also be dental issues. This
check er, but
it's subject I hadn't thought about GDPR. But its objective.
What is it what a problem is, I'm all for an additional
namespace tag with authentication. I have no
problem with that. I just had a problem with the stories like
everyone's whining about this. And I love the guys at
Buzzsprout as much as I love everybody else. But it's like,
okay, it really wasn't a huge news item and issue until a cast
just just why don't we the new story is attention attention, a
cast or assholes. That's that's the new story. That's it, and
then everything else is bliss. So I just want to move it away
from the email and say, why don't we just create a better
way to authenticate because there's all these benefits?
Maybe that's all I care about?
Well, a cast said that they love open RSS. That's what they've
been saying for a while. And now we know what
Yeah, but when I'm saying is free email address, what I'm
saying is, is that every company spams me and, you know, Spotify
spans me and Google spans me and Amazon spams me. And I don't
mind because I might not have found out about this wonderful
opportunity. You know, it's pretty damn targeted.
What are you talking about in
emails? Emails based upon what's in my feed? You know, it's like,
hey, podcasts are like and I know exactly how they got my
email.
I understand where you're coming from because I understand where
you're coming from the big the big thing is that like, you
can't stop spam ever so just I mean, there's a little bit of
like, why even try involved here and you if you get utility out
of it? Why? I mean, why are you trying to fight you know, put
your finger in the dam,
but, but also if you really want to get my attention, send me a
booster gram.
No, yes, sir.
That's what eight cash should be doing.
Open up breeze. This is the booster speaking
of the US, shall we bring our guest into the boardroom right
now? Because he's been sitting patiently about on the
sidelines. It's very late where he lives. Oh, do
we have a guest? Yes, please, by all means.
We have a guest ladies and gentlemen that we've tried To
get him on before he's very elusive. We're not sure if he's
a founder, the co founder, the CEO, or he's actually all the
dev guys on the GitHub as well. Please say hello to Roy
scheinfeld from breeze.
Hey, hey, Dave.
Hey, Roy. I've been trying to get you on forever, dude.
Come on. That's not fair guys, you know?
No, of course. But who said we're fair? We're podcasters.
Right? Israel, Israel based. So breeze is unique amongst all of
the podcast apps, that and podcasting 2.0 apps, I'll say,
in the sense that y'all were a wallet first, and then add in
podcasting later, which is very different from what most of the
podcasting, people know apps have done. I guess, I want to
know, first of all, like, how, just how has it gone? How has
the you committed a lot of deaf time to this to put podcasting
into the breeze wallet? And I mean, have you gotten a decent
return on it?
Hold on a second. Before you before you answer that, Roy. I
don't even remember how we connected and how you started
doing it anymore. Do you mind Dave? We just we just get the
because do you remember Dave?
I see. I didn't know I think someone connected us, Adam. And
we got on the call. And I saw the light and started walking on
that podcasting. 2.0 That's how it happened.
Okay, what if it was Paul ever saying
But was it Paul? It might have been? I think it was Paul.
Maybe? Yeah, yeah, perhaps. Okay.
Sorry. Back to the question. How's it going?
Hey, I was doing good. By the way. I don't quote breezy today.
And I never called Brazil wallet even when it was just a wallet.
Yeah,
it's a point of sale application. Is that fair?
No, not really, it. I didn't call it the world even before we
had the point of sale.
It's a portable lightning node.
Technically, but for users, I hate the word wallet in the
context of lightning. I really hate the term wallet. It's so
technical. And so what I want to do with breeze and what we think
we all in the lightning ecosystem should do. We want to
get adoption, right and no one calls Venmo a wallet, no one
calls PayPal the wallet. People don't care about wallet, people
want X pay for stuff extra. So I see raised as a payment service.
So you can ask me why I added podcasting 2.0 to our payment
service, but not worldwide.
Okay. All right. I understand fully that that makes perfect
sense. Because if you now, you understand why you add
podcasting to it, because podcasting needs a payment
service. And so you think that was a perfect compliment.
Exactly. Exactly. So, so breezy is all about like creating peer
to peer economy. And that's why we started like the idea behind
breweries was to help a Bitcoin do this transformation from a
store of value to a medium of change. And what we tried to do
with bridge is to explore the ways people can interact in a
peer to peer manner with with the lightning economy. So we
started with like, a generic send receive payments, where
people can send payments and receive payments from their
friends. Then we added the point of sale interface, because
lightning enables everyone to become a merchant without having
a bank account. And then after our there our meeting with Adam,
after Adam was so charming, and we added we added first get
podcasting 2.0 I think a podcasting 2.0 is a is a is a is
an amazing use case for the lightning economy. And yeah, I
was
gonna ask you most want to be payment services. Unlike yours,
which is the payment service. They, they have a point of sale
app. And in fact, a lot of I think the the first applications
of any lightning app that I ever saw was point of sale and
roulette. Is point of sale being used a lot.
A it's being used in not a lot. I would say like a 10 to 20% of
our users use breeze as the point of sale, but there are the
most heavy users. So the people that are relying on breeze as a
point of sale are our most active users and our most
demanding users. And I think a lot of our traffic. Our traffic
is really associated with our point of sale interface.
I also see a lot of ln URL activity in your groups?
A Yeah, yeah. Because you're like thinking it's a great
addition to what a web Web Services has to offer. And
people are using it just a better user experience for
interacting with lightning.
Do you use your breeze for to listening to all your pods?
Podcasts?
connected to a secret?
You don't listen to podcast? Do you?
I don't know. I don't know.
Your reader. Okay. Yeah. Well,
you're also very good writer. Ben always looking forward to a
good ROI article, because I know I can just sit down with coffee
and read for, you know, 30 minutes because you have nice
long well thought out. Well thought out articles and one you
dropped yesterday is no exception.
Yeah, the liquid lightning in liquidity network?
Yeah, there's one thing in here you said that, that I
highlighted last night as I was reading through it. And he said,
When routing nodes optimize their local liquidity
allocation, everyone benefits from a better network,
collective benefits result from the decisions of self regarding
individuals. And you were saying this in sort of context of like
Adam Smith and the invisible hand of the market. But this,
this feels like the struggle right now. And I want to get
your thought on this. It feels like there's this sort of the
Lightning Network has grown really fast. And whenever you
have sort of hyper growth over a short period of time, it really,
people have to stop and breathe and figure out what is going on.
And I think what has happening now from my sense, is that
there's an sort of allocation, liquidity allocation discovery
process going on, where people are trying to figure out what
their channels need to look like, how much the to charge,
all these kinds of things. Is that is that kind of what you're
trying to say there?
Yes, yes, exactly. So you You're, you're calling me out.
Kind of the reason that I wrote the article is really because I,
I think we're seeing lately there's, there's a growing
number of percentage of failed payments. And it's not because
nodes are not connected, nodes are connected. But if there's a
payment, and then if there's a lightning payment, and the
payment has failed, meaning there's a route, but if the
payment didn't went through the route, it means liquidity was
mis allocated. And the reason the reason I wrote this article
is to show that we need to start thinking about lightning as
liquidity network. And people need to start thinking about
better ways to allocate their liquidity and the how is the
challenge. And also, that's another reason for re writing
this article, I want the I want a more better tooling to be in
place, and we don't have splicing layer, a peer swap, and
you can drill down to the tools to the specific clip you guys
want.
I need to ask a question about this, because I'm glad you
brought it up, Dave. So I'm kind of in charge of the podcast
index node. So I set it up. So I was early on and the idea we
always had was, we need to make these micro payments work. And,
and the majority of users who come into podcasting 2.0 And you
know, we're such early days, there's so many pioneers and
very brave people who are buying raspberry pies and setting up
nodes and loading Umbral onto old laptops and, and people are
really, really excited. And the biggest problem we of course,
hit when someone, you know, is finally synced to the blockchain
for 57 hours. And they're like, Okay, I know I've opened a
channel. And then of course, they have no inbound liquidity.
And what podcast index has done consistently is every Satoshi we
get, we save, and we turn into liquidity. And this has been
something Dave and I've been talking about also in the board
meeting for the past couple of weeks. You know, basically
someone buys a, you know, someone installs Umbral on on an
old laptop, and we're putting, you know, $100 of liquidity to
that person, which is, it turns out is not very efficient. And
the way I've been looking at making it more and this your
article is really good, and I really appreciate it because
what it told me was I'm on the right path of making our kind of
local issue work for us. Whereas I've always been concerned
about, you know, like, like the connections more as you said
more than the liquidity. And so I made some fundamental changes
as an experiment because we route a lot But we were not
making a lot of money. And I want to make sure the
microtransactions go through cleanly and easily. So, you
know, the, the interim changes I've made is I have, because we
also because we're connected, we do have some big channels, you
know, people will be like, Oh, we're just gonna, I'm gonna
rebalance through these fuckers over here. And then we have, you
know, all of these, you know, 250, sach, 1000 chats at
channels getting completely screwed, and people don't know
what to do. Exactly. So. So what I've done is I've taken away the
base fee of zero, to incentivize the micro payments, and I've
upped the, the, the percentage fee significantly, and that has
that seen what I saw, and I'm not sure it's only been a few
days, channels, almost autumn automagically started to be
better balanced. I don't know why, but it just seems like
probably 30% balanced, better ended by themselves. I didn't do
anything.
And cosy, the channels don't get depleted by the large
transactions.
Right. And, and we were definitely making more in fees,
which I, which I think is important. And now I have to
kind of figure out and maybe you can help, or we can just talk
about it. You know, do I need to categorize types of users and
their usage and calculate fees based upon them individual
channels? Or is that something I should do across the board? I
mean, it's, it's kind of scary, because I'm at any given moment,
like, will this fee that I'm changing here? Will it make a
payment fail a payment of you know, like 10 SATs? Will it
screw that up?
Yeah, I think I think one of the best practices practices is to
analyze the flows like what are the flows that you want to
controls? What are the flows that you are master must have in
your, in your mind and in like, set the right fees for the for
disclose? I think what you're doing is exactly right. But I
think let's let's take a step back, like rebalancing is bad.
No one should rebalance their channels using the existing
tools. That's that's the, that's the honest truth. Because when
you rebalance your channels inside the Lightning Network, it
means you're screwing up the liquidity
of everybody have lots of people. And but we get we get in
that loop a lot. And it's, and it's usually people with really
good intentions, who all of a sudden, they're sending, you
know, 5 million SATs through a ring of fire, which I'm okay
with all of that. And I think it's fun to do. But then one
thing screws up and then there's all these little nodes of like,
Whoa, where did it go?
Exactly, exactly. And I'm doing that as well, like with the
breeze node. But that's because of lack of better tools. Yeah, I
think I think I'm pointing out in the article, one of the tools
that I think needs to be in place is a pure swap. And appear
swap is a way to rebalance your channels by doing an off chain
to an on chain swap. And then you're not damaging the
liquidity of other channels, because there's no like circular
rebalancing going on. He's just, you're controlling a specific
channel, and you can say, I'm moving liquidity to the other
side of the channel. How do I do that by doing an on chain
transaction?
Right now that that's doable? Correct me if I'm wrong, but
that's doable? Really? Because? And I'm not sure if I'm talking
to people who may not understand lightning a whole lot, either is
if I'm not mistaken, then every lightning every lightning
transaction is a valid on chain transaction also. So that on
chain transaction can be you can, you could theoretically, if
the tooling and everything were correct, you could bump that you
could go go on chain, enough to do that liquidity swap
temporarily, without having to bring the whole channel down and
back up. Is that right?
No, not really, it's true that any lightning transaction is
also a Bitcoin transaction. But it also it only takes effect
when you close the channel. If you want to keep the channel
open, the way the way to do this off chain to launch in
transaction is by doing a swap that's that's one option and an
atomic swap. But in atomic swap, you're not closing the channel
in or you're not using the same lightning transaction as the on
chain transaction. What you're actually doing is sending a
lightning transaction you you do you're using a concept called
the hold invoice meaning you are not settling the lightning
transaction until the in another different completely different
on chain transaction is executed. Once you know this on
chain transaction is executed. You settle the Lightning
transaction. It's called in an atomic swap.
Right? So, yeah, you could also you could also just walk over to
someone's house, give them 50 bucks and say, shoot some SATs
my way.
Exactly. Okay, exactly. But you do that in a in a trustless
manner. Right? That's, that's the thing with with, with an
atomic swap, by the way, Breeze has a built in atomic swap
inside the app, when you receive on chain transaction in breeze,
it's actually in an on chain to off chain swap. And when you
send the funds outside the wallet to Ben on change, but
also on chain address, we're doing an off chain to the to on
chain swap, and everything is trustless. But you don't have to
trust breeze in that, in that. In that scenario, it's called
the submarine swaps. And F every node every node that the thing
is in the problem is that not nodes don't expose the service,
meaning they don't have an atomic swap service to expose to
other nodes. So no one can actually do that. And there's a
new new tool developed by block stream called gear swap, it's
basically an extension to your node, where you can set up
another service on top of your lightning node where you you
tell other nodes in the network, you can swap with me and when
you swap with them in you have a direct channel with them, it
actually moved the liquidity to the other side of the channel
and now other channels are part of this process is just taking
this liquidity and sending this liquidity on chain. So I think I
think we need to like that is a must. And another tool that is a
must in order to optimize liquidity is slicing. So slicing
is a way to take a channel and change its capacity without
closing it. So I can fix it or or decrease liquidity in an
existing channel without closing it. And reallocating liquidity
elsewhere.
So does that spin is that that involves having a new address
that right? On the entree side?
Yeah, yes.
Yeah. Okay. So is this I guess, from what I've seen of splicing,
I think, see, Lightning is the only one that has some version
of that at the moment. Is that right? No
one is version of splicing at the moment. A I think Casey
lightning our most active on developing it, they have like a
an initial version of it, they see lightning develop dual
funded channel. And dofollow channel is kind of a basic
version of spicing it but it requires more development in
order to add lightning threads by sync to see lightning, but I
think they will even hear it. I think they will be the first
limitation to
this. I'm hearing a lot about see lightning. And just so
everybody knows. Lightning labs doesn't control the Lightning
Network. Although you'd think they do. They think they do.
Well, they have Lightning as a handle in Twitter, right?
Well, that says so it's good for something. What are the main
differences? See, lightning is a different implementation. What
are the main differences? What is it? I mean, I've seen it now
show up. I think the new version of the raspy blitz has both ln D
and C lightning in it. What are the some of the main differences
or benefits of one over the other? And how would that maybe
affect podcasting?
So that's a great question. So I think the the there are three
four major limitations in lightning and the main
difference. There's a couple of differences between them. Mainly
the programming language C, lightning is written in C and
lnd. Go a the asking implementation is written in
Scala,
ACI And Q. That's the French guys. Yes.
And the end, there's a daily K guys, a was for writing in a
lender, a lightning lighter in rust. So I think that's the
major like implementations today. The lightning, I think
there are very, they're trying to be very efficient. So from a
performance standpoint, a rusty Russell who's developing is part
of the silicon development team. He was doing the networking
stuff back in the day on Linux. He's very knowledgeable about
performance, memory, all the stuff they're very memory
efficient, ever very networking efficient. And, and they're
they're putting a lot of emphasis on that. But they're
also I think, a trying to be as open and standard as much as
possible. So they're always they're always like a cutting
edge when it comes to specifications and
standardization, for example, they're trying to push a new
startup called Bolt 12. That will, that will be in addition
to both 11 where people will be able to send payments to other
without invoice without an invoice. That's the basic use
case of both well,
except that it won't be key send them won't rely upon the same
type of luck to get through.
Yes, exactly. So yeah, so a case and by the way, the l&d was the
first to implement, he said, and I'm glad they did, because they
unlocked all the use cases of podcasting. 2.0 is just one
example. But other use cases as well. A now there's an and they
replaced keys and add the decrease and with the ANP
implementation, but it didn't try to push it as part of the
lightning standard. Anything anything that will be successful
and well adopted, as there has to be inspiration has to be in
the standard thing has to be in the spec and see lightning are
trying to push it. Both will see lightning are the only one to
implement dual funded channels. See, Lightning has issues, I
think, luckily, there's a reason most of the nodes are running
lnd. And I think one of the main constraints in see lightning was
the fact that they didn't support multiple channels per
peer, meaning you can only open one channel per peer. So so
there's a reason and most of the nodes are running. l&d. It's not
just documentation, not just tooling, but it's also like, the
weird constraints that they see lightning had. I think they're
gonna prove that. I don't
know. But breezes breeze is based on lnd. Right?
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, Bri is based on l&d. The reason bridges
is based on melodies, because trees runs a node inside of your
mobile device. And in the C lightning implementation. I
don't know if you know that you probably know that, that. It's
like the Unix Linux architecture of the old running processes,
like a pass process. Yeah. So one process spawns another
process, and you don't have these multi process capabilities
in mobile. So we actually couldn't use C lightning as part
of our stack, because we had to turn a l&d into a library. So we
it was possible to take the lnd limitation and create a library
out of it. But it was impossible to do that for see lightning
because of this multi process architecture that they use.
It's really quite amazing what Brees is doing. I mean, you
know, aside from the from like a key Send Receive, which is not
possible on mobile for multiple reasons. I mean, it really is
fun to just drop down the command line. Sometimes it's
like, I check routes and everything a breeze really
becomes my toolbox. And just to see if everything and it feels
really good to have that kind of access to to your full node, but
it is kind of freakish. Now that's not your general use
case. I'm sure him is like, Hey, I can't wait to do a route check
in my breeze. That's something that that's without a doubt
there's it's kind of fun, not fun. It's interesting to watch.
You know, we resolve ideas and thoughts and disputes all in a
Mastadon setting. I'm not I think I don't know exactly how
this goes in the in the lightning development world. But
there's lots of rumblings and there's people's getting you
getting kind of nasty with each other and a little bit of a
flame flame war, I guess what? So what are the real problems?
And are they problems we need to be thinking of is there are
there solutions that are going to get better for for what we're
trying to do with with streaming with value for value streaming
payments. I'm saying that specifically because I see this
working for music and for books and many, many other things. And
yeah, and I guess we should probably move that into the
realm of messaging because that seems to be one of the big
disputes.
Yes. So I think you touched on a very important point I think
they kind of the externalization process. When we started, by the
way, we started in mid 2018. There was a standard, a standard
process, the whole process in place, it's still in place, but
it moved very quickly, very efficiently in 2018, and in
2019. And the process kind of altered in 2020, late 2020, more
2021. And still, it's still it's slow moving. And can you guess
the reason for that? endemic?
It's probably not pandemic, no, no, you don't get you don't get
to use COVID as an excuse.
I was never really Yes. And I'll tell you why. I think because
people are not being able to meet face to face. Yeah. And
hash their issues, face to face. I think it creates an issue. And
I think all the stuff that we're seeing now are is is a result of
miscommunication that and then there's like kind of a war. All
right now in the last couple of days in Twitter. There wasn't an
email from Alex postwar from l&d and and the rusty and the
Rusty's is calling out to Alex and l&d and the app sync folks
are also joined the party we'd calling out l&d And I think I
think I know all the teams that personally, and I think everyone
wants the best for lightning, maybe they have different
constraints and different structures to execute on that.
But I think we're talking about good people with a lot of
motivation to contribute and, and, and have an open standard
network. And I think that the reason that it isn't really a
doesn't really hasn't been working lately is because people
are not just not communicating, not working with each other.
yelling at each other on Twitter. That's pretty much the
bottom of the barrel.
Hmm, yeah. But maybe it's a good thing. But the only way is up
from here.
So what what is what is the core problem? I mean, so we because
well, the spec is moving forward, all 12.
Lightning, and lightning Labs is not embracing both 12 as fast as
I think everybody wants.
Okay, yeah. And by the way, if you look at the Alex's email,
Alex basically said, like, maybe we don't need the
standardization, and refreezing. But maybe we don't need
socialization process, because we can pull, push out features
that we want to push and focus on the things we want to push
because we own and we like users, right? 9090 plus percent
of the nodes are running on lnd. So why do we care?
Right, right, right, right.
Again, I'm rephrasing I don't remember the exact words, but I
think that's why people get upset. But if you continue to
read Alex's email, he raises in legitimate concerns around a
around both wealth. And I think that goes back to what you had
asked the Adam regarding messaging, because part of the
bowl will have specification, we need an ability to communicate
between peers. And so there are new types of messaging where
people can send the notes can send other notes and messages.
And Alex is worried. And frankly, I'm worried as well,
that that it these messages will be used as a generic messaging
infrastructure.
Yeah, I think a lot of this goes to me, this argument in the
lightning world, or this debate in the lightning world is very
similar to the to the debate within Bitcoin Core about
whether or not to increase block size, that they feel very
similar to me, because there there is, there's a legitimate
concern about you about lightning, because people trying
to stuff things into lightning messaging that really should not
be there. And because as soon as you open up a generic channel
for doing things like binary transfers over Lightning
Network, you mean hey, we're
gonna do podcasting over Lightning Network? Yeah. Can we
do an attachment?
Everybody the reason for that? becomes
COVID Davies, because I think no one wants that, by the way,
like, and there's no single implementation that wants to use
a lightning is a generic messaging platform, or a generic
messaging infrastructure. Not not see lightning, not the ASIC
not l&d and not educate, no one wants that there needs to be a
to some degree messaging capabilities in order to enable
payment features. So we need to execute that very carefully. And
we need to add that a to the, to the standard and to the
specification. But we need to make sure this tools in this new
utilities aren't being abused. A
is isn't. Isn't booster gramming by itself kind of abusing that
then?
No, I don't think so. I think booster grams is a great
addition to lightning because it uses something called TLV. Until
V is is an extension to a payment, you can't boost without
payment. Right? Correct. So I think he can utilize the core.
I'm liking the I'm reading. I'm reading the the email now by the
way, it's badass to post somebody's email in a VI
session. That with the numbers on the side. That's pretty cool.
That's that's nerdy right there. But I guess the some of the
dispute is about no cost peer to peer messaging.
Yeah,
again, I don't think there's a To be honest, I don't think
there's a real dispute because no one wants a liking to be used
as a generic messaging infrastructure. And no one wants
lightning to become the new Can I just
say something Roy, every single developer who has been at
podcasting 2.0, who has seen this work, and particularly with
heli pad, the first thing they all want to do is create a reply
button. And that's my intuition, too. It's like, oh, I want to
reply to these messages.
Why not? But you can if you pay for them. I'm fine for you that
because it means that the routing nodes have incentives.
Okay, people need to understand don't
we want that we want people I want people to hit boost me, I
want you to tell me that I suck and send me 10,000 SATs. That's
that's the whole point.
Exactly. Exactly. So that's the reason I like booster gram. And
by the way we what we did in braces to put was to REM is like
the default. The default boost a
very confused, very confusing, Mr. Roy. Okay, do you know how
many times I go to the breeze app and I hold down the button
and it goes because I'm thinking a message it's gonna pop up. You
could you bro, you broke my UX brother. I'm like, oh my god, I
just boosted 8000 SATs in one go.
That happens with early adopters that Oh
my God. Every other app that does it exactly the opposite
way.
I wouldn't worry too much about it because they eventually they
do what we do at the
end. Oh, man, did you hear that massage? Shit. Dave, that was
that was That was harsh man. Can you do about the vont?
I think with with with the apps like caliper, I think a booster
gram is really the way to communicate between between
listeners and podcasters. And I think this feature need to be
exposed to that out that was our way to expose it.
I love that you put it in there. Obviously I'm just I'm just
giving you a hard time.
What? Tell me this though, tell me. One question I have is what?
Why? Why did you limit or decide to limit the booster gram length
to 90 characters? Or was that just a just pick off the top of
your head? Or what was the thinking there?
Is the thinking is again it goes back to are we using Lightning
as the as the messaging platform. I don't want to spam
the network too much with too much data. So so I don't want to
like DDoS attacks and I want to protect a I wanted to protect
the day, the infrastructure and the platform. Is that what's
your what's the what's the what's the message? Like? I
listened to the bill at the beginning to the booster gram
that Adam received, I guess maybe we need to increase the
wish to grow.
It's a little short. It's a little short. And yes, yeah.
What what has seen what I've seen a lot is is that the
standard seems to be roughly about the size of a of a Twitter
to Mastadon message like between 250 to 500 characters roughly
okay. 250 is 250 is fine for me, honestly, because on the
receiving end of this stuff, if you give you give people a
bucket, they're going to fill it up. And I I agree with you in
the spirit. The spirit of a booster gram is short and I
really love keeping that short but I run now There's something
to be said for what you're doing there because I have literally
boost the grant twice to get my message in. So this not saying
that I'm against the idea of limiting that, because it does
kind of force you into doing it again.
So we did 90 characters, there's no question like, Hey, I'm sure
that we can handle it. And I'm not worried about it with 256.
Or I don't know how many characters and I would go and
check with the with l&d and check with, see lightning, what
do they think like if that's a good number to use? Because at
the end of the day, keep in mind, there is additional
information that we send as part of this payment. It's not just
the booster grant, right. It's also the timestamp, the podcast,
the name, the podcasting episode, like
comic comics, or job data, comics or Blogger just sends
entire books with his booster grams, and it screws up
everything.
It was the list of times it was
Yeah, but these these are really quality problems to have. And
I'm kind of enjoying I'm not I'm very much enjoying the
conversation. And it was there was a second part to John
Spurlock was also on pod land. And talking about because you
know, Roy, we're doing cross app comments. And there was actually
a remark made, they said, well, it's not really a good thing. We
already have messaging with booster grams. And you know,
comments may be confusing. And I thought to myself, no, it's two
separate things. It's really, but but I can also see a use
case where, like a super chat on YouTube booster gram show up in
the chat. You know, or maybe there's a way for you, for us to
say, okay, um, maybe, I don't know, maybe you could say, oh,
you have to you have to pay to post here, you know, kind of
like the the Sphinx model, which I don't know if that's
technically possible, but there's definitely integrations
there, although it's two separate things. Oh. Yeah. No.
Well, I was wondering what you are, if you have any thoughts on
it?
Oh, me? No. Well, no, I think they're, I think they're two
separate things. Like, I think like, if I don't know, Roy, if
you saw, he probably didn't we we did like a live test. We did
a test. Yeah,
I saw. I'm following them on Twitter. So.
Okay. Yeah. And so we we did that live last Sunday. And what
what Sir Spencer had done, and I don't think it was him. I think
it was a C dubs or something like that. They had created a, a
bot to except to watch the gRPC stream coming out of lnd. And
then as those boosts came into the node, people would boost to
the live stream through a podcast app. And then as that
those boosts came in, it would translate them into an IRC chat.
Message as sexy as hell.
So you end up with what literally it looks exactly like
a YouTube Super Chat, bot.
Little bot with little asterix, like I'm a bot and look at the
here's the message is beautiful.
Yeah. And to me, that's fun. The use case like that is
fundamentally different than something like a cross app
comment, which is meant to be sort of permanent, whereas the
other things are or where the live chat is, like more
ephemeral,
but just shooting from the just shooting from the hip here, just
as a nutty idea, since we're looking at Pew pew. Since we're
looking at activity pub. Oh, no, we're not I'm sorry. We are
actively using activity pub for the cross app comments. Is there
a way to tie in paint like a payment portion to that so it
may be totally unnecessary, but I'm just I always enjoyed the
the Sphinx idea of it cost you 10 sets to post a message. Is
there a way to tie in payments into activity pub? Just and
that's more of a lightning question, I guess, than a
podcasting. 2.0 question.
Yeah, I mean, anything with a gateway? You know, you just have
to have some sort of gateway to go in and out. And that's,
that's really where, you know, this is sort of let me let me
back into this because I want I do have a question to Roy that I
think, is kind of has kind of related to this, and it's
something that's been, you know, we've been trying to figure out
and I say what I mean by we is various people I've talked to in
the podcasting world. You know, we've been trying to in this
just kind of keeps coming up, trying to figure out a way to
make all this stuff work where it's legal, you know, legal, and
all the custodian people want to, you're dealing with funds
here you're dealing with with with financial things. And so
like, like braze can't accept keys and payments. So what we've
been left with is things like ln pay.
And custodial versus non custodial. Yeah, the custodial
versus non custodian. So like, I'm less interested in that sort
of idea, the custodial, non custodial, then just just
there's more, more direct question, which is, Can all of
these things be done long term in a way that doesn't require
like custodial liquidity. And what I mean is, like we, for
instance, what Adam described earlier, with the podcast index
node is in order a podcaster, comes online with an Umbral or a
recipe Blitz, and we open up 100,000 side channel to them to
give them some inbound liquidity. And that's fine,
except that it's is not efficient use of liquidity, and
that you end up with a single node that has 150 channels. But,
you know, the only way I can imagine to get around that is
through custodial level liquidity where you have
something like Ellen pay,
which has its own problems. During the live, we saw that it
had its own issues of overload.
Yeah. So you bet you need some central thing there that has,
you know, 10 million sets of liquidity. So I think we're
talking to
the right guy. I think the lightning service providers is
his job, although I don't know what he does.
I don't I don't do anything. Really?
I know. I still don't know what you do you just on the telegram
all day, as far as I'm concerned, you may not even work
for Brees would just be their PR guy.
Hey. So yeah, that's I think you're getting to the heart of
the issues with lightning today. By the way, that's the reason I
started breeze, I started breeze because I believe we can create
a noncustodial user experience that is on par with what
custodial solution has to offer. A so. So what I think needs to
happen is this notion of an LSP, enlightening service provider,
kind of the entity that connects and user to network, we need
more or less these. And we need we need competition of LSPs that
will bring the prices down. But for me, let's talk about user
experience. Okay, why why when when you use breeze, what's
what's the main difference between a breeze and a custodial
wallet? The main difference and the main caveat is you can't
receive an offline payment using breeze. And and that's because
it mobile nodes are mostly offline. That's that's the
that's the that's the real winner. Can
you explain what you mean by an offline payment?
Yeah, so So breeze runs in Node A spark. So let's let's talk
about custodial solutions. Okay, yeah, please, what, when you
have a wallet like a wallet of Satoshi, or let's say, a blue
wallet, and still there, they're switching to LD cake. But let's
talk about their existing offering. It's a it's a
custodial lightning solution, meaning they use one node or
multiple nodes, but they use their own nodes in order in
order to manage the funds and users are just entry in the in a
database somewhere right? So they they know how to split the
funds between different users based on their own accounting
and they can tap into your funds they can steal your funds they
can do with the with your funds, whatever they like a so you're
trusting them to manage your friends and they have total
control of your funds. And this is for me that that's not
Bitcoin or or worse
or worse, just explain it even even better. You might have
donated $50 to some protests that might have involved some
truckers and the Government of Canada goes and says hey, we
don't want that shit happening. And they go straight to your
your your blue wallet, guys or whatever and they say cut them
all off.
Of course and then they can seize the funds
right which is which is a real thing is my point is that's
happening right now in our world.
That's happening on exchanges and that will happen
noncustodial wallet, by the way. It's wrong to call custodial
wallets, wallets, it's more accounts when you talk
about it. So login, you got to log in. Exactly.
So So whenever you have an account, and the your funds in
the account can be seized, I am, I'm not even talking about the
privacy and right and this kind of issues, just like the
custodial party, the having control over your funds. So what
I, what I wish we thought we sought out to do in breeze is to
provide a noncustodial solution that will be on par in terms of
user experience in terms of when it comes to lightning payments.
So in bridge right now, when you receive funds, we actually open
the channel on the fly to end users. And we use the funds that
we receive in order to fund this channel. So unlike what you guys
are doing with podcasting 2.0 We thought we don't just give we
provide an additional amount of inbound liquidity. But the the
most of the liquidity actually comes from our users. And we're
using zero comms channels in order to provide them with the
ability to spend the funds immediately after receiving
right. I think that's the main difference. So liquidity
actually, in our use case comes from a user's app. And Phoenix
and moon are doing the same thing. And I think,
yeah, I was gonna say, so the kind of the liquidity providers
version 1.0 was like, the services where you can, you
know, pay 10%, or whatever, and you get a channel for a month,
that was kind of the early version of liquidity providers.
I think the early version of liquidity providers that, by the
way, we actually implemented braces that we open the 1
million Satoshi channel to end user for free. That was version
that's a bad, that's a bad business model.
Yeah, but we did that on purpose in order to learn to understand
the use cases and how people are using like, here's where
we're at now. Exactly. We're also figuring it out now, like,
Okay, how are people using it, but all of this could go away
for us is what I'm hearing you say?
So yeah, so what I'm saying is that, when you create channels
on the fly, you can reuse the liquidity in sent right to to
users, in order to open the channels. You don't say I like
Open the Channels upfront, you open the channel as a reaction
to receiving the funding the funds. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Is so
that that mitigates this kind of issue?
Right? Yes. Yes. Where you take a small percentage for opening
the channel, you take that of the initial funding. Okay. Yeah.
Well, that's great. That makes total sense. Yeah,
yeah. So we take a small processions, by the way maybe
when will we will route more in a different scale and maybe fees
will be higher, maybe we can we can do that for free. But for
now, in order to offset some of our expenses, we we do take a
small fee when you open it when we open the channel on the
flight and you don't have enough inbound liquidity.
And that that's that's what a zero comp channel is. I mean,
that it's a it's a pre it's opening a channel before the
payments settled on chain right.
So to two to two concepts two terms and which which serve
different turbo I guess it's a
turbo channel really.
One One is a channel it is creating channels on the fly.
This actually is the ability that you need in order to open a
channel in order to a as a response to receiving funds
that's one term I don't like the use is zero confront turbo
channels are the same. I don't like the marketing name of tuber
channels. So I use zero calm because it exposes the expose
the nature of the channel, zero cons channel means you trust
breeze, a until the channel is confirmed. So zero coins
channeled provides the ability to spend the funds immediately
after receiving them without waiting for on chain
confirmation. So you can install breeze receive payment and spend
this payment immediately without waiting for origin confirmation.
And this is a zero point channel. It's kind of different
from channel on the fly. Like so I think with this new
infrastructure, this is stuff that we worked on during 2020
and still improving. I think this mitigates really the no
with the inbound liquidity issue because you don't need in one
liquidity. The inbound liquidity is the inbound liquidity the
user that users provide and got it so you don't So you don't
need like a central entity and stuff like that you need to as
an LSP, you need to have enough liquidity in order to serve a
dynamically the users that are coming to your A to your node
and asking for channels to be to be created. But that's it, you
don't need like, we can talk about liquidity management after
but it's a complicated topic. The thing is the main issue that
that doesn't solve, unlike custodial solution, when you run
a node on your mobile device, to know that actually runs only
when the app is active, a meaning you can receive bands
only when the app is active. Now there are ways to work around
that. Like you can use a GSM and mobile notification in order to
wake the app and stuff like that. But it's really unreliable
with the current mobile operating systems. And it's not
solution that is inherit a two, two lightning, meaning it's not
self contained in lightning, what what what will happen if
you want to run in lightning application in your browser, or
in another device? So we need to have a way in earth, really to
be on par with custodial solution? We need to have a way
to receive payments, even if you're not running your node
actively.
Right. But that requires something in the cloud
listening, then I presume?
Yes, yes, that's definitely part of the solution. And maybe using
other nodes in order to delegate the receive functions to other
nodes in the network. Nodes that you know, that will be online,
maybe you use your own nodes in the cloud, like a watch our like
you have watched our notes that
this is very interesting. This is because this is where the
this is. This is where we the wallet metaphor has to go away.
Because I understand, what you're saying is you can have a
noncustodial solution, as long as your key is on your phone for
sending receiving doesn't really matter that much. Is that what
you're saying?
Yes, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I think we solutions
like a PLCs, there will be an option in lightning, to split
the keys and to have different keys for different actions. I
can imagine the future a user users will have a way to give
receive keys to other nodes, and then tell them like I'm
delegating the
right. Okay, oh, that's a cool idea.
And use this key in order to do that. And I can revoke this key
whenever I want. So the user can control the key. But if we will
have the ability to have to split the keys, the lightning
keys to two different applications. One is for sending
and the other for receiving, then a I can delegate the node
because I don't want other nodes to spend my funds that but I can
trust another node to receive funds on my behalf. The only
thing the only thing that I'm losing is kind of the trust,
there's a trust element that I trust this note to accept the
funds on my behalf. That's the only downside.
Well, that reminds me of something like it's a model very
similar to pop three. So nobody runs their own email server. But
we debt we sort of delegate the receive ability to receive email
on our behalf to some cloud server that we've chosen to
trust for that function. And then our email clients just go
and periodically pull those emails down the other that the
other server has has gotten for us on our behalf so we and we
said that you know when it comes to descending I'll you know I'll
I'll retain control of that myself you know, through an SMTP
channel or route to that through there SMTP host I'll just do
that on a one off. I'm not going to let this this email server
just send things randomly that you know as me I retain control
of that but on the receiving side, I will let them receive on
behalf of me.
Yes, because I think that's a great analogy.
I like them so that's something that we could do we could be a
mini LSP I guess in that case. CK I want to stay away from
that. I don't really want to do that quite honestly. Do what
anything I just want you to do it right. Can you just do
everything and fix it for us because I'm No, no,
no. But by the way, I think this is also about this specifically
what we're trying to do embrace. And I'm trying to onboard. And
luckily there are there are people that we're working on,
like the folks from spiral a we're working together right now
is to make the LSP functionality a standard. So I don't think
it's a single vendor play a breeze in breeze, by the way,
you can connect to other nodes in the network, I don't want to
be the sole LSP I want to be illiquidity market, I want to be
to have competition around the liquidity. I think we need
multiple LSPs I think multiple LSPs. And an open network in
that regard, creates competition competition, creates better
prices, and better and user experience. So so so my goal is
to ever an open client where a user can connect to multiple
LSPs and to choose the LSPs. They want to interact with a I
think that's the end goal.
And is this something that you also see being an important part
of a self custody LSP type deal at home on an Umbral?
I think that's that that's a key element. I think, without a way
to offload a cloud node to your own device, we're still at a
censorship position. I didn't care what was the Ambrose guys
are doing with their infrastructure they're building
and other folks like star nine? Yeah. It's a key element. It's
part of the package, the ability to offload something from a
cloud environment to your home environment. Yeah.
And I want to say I had a very, very nice experience with the
Bitcoin machines company, they, they basically put a Raspberry
Pi and preload Umbral in a box, it pretty little box that you I
have always wanted this, I go back to the cobalt cube, which I
think we've talked about on the show, I've always thought a home
server would be great. And people have tried this and tried
this. And for some reason, the minute they threw in a Bitcoin,
and even better threw in lightning, all of a sudden this
device is now it's complete. It has everything you want. And you
know it has next cloud in there. I really think this is something
big. And I just I don't know if you're familiar with tail scale,
to be heard of this. No tail scale is it's it's built on, I
think, the Wireshark protocol. But basically, you view, you
install it on all your machines, and you have a VPN with your
machines. And even if you have an Umbral node at home running
on tour, you haven't popped any ports open, you don't have to do
any of that you just installed to scale. And then it works. And
in fact, it's so cool. I put up a piehole on this on this new
Umbral. And you can then through tail scale route all your
traffic even on your phone through that piehole on your
home network. I mean, these are these are really, really cool
things that are happening.
Yeah, I definitely agree. Although, although I don't think
that's the key to mass adoption. And where I'm focusing is on
mass. Yeah, I don't think everyone will around.
And oh, no, oh, no, no, no, don't don't get me wrong. But I
think there's a significant segment that sees the benefit of
having all of their shit now at home. There is a segment and I
think it's important because those
are the segment. Right, but the moronic? Yes. And number node.
Yeah, of course, of course. It's a key. And it's a key element of
the of the of the solution. So if we'll have nodes running in
the cloud, we will have no, it's a must have to have a way to
take the information from the cloud nodes and run, run them in
your home environment. Think it's part yeah,
you can take it right away and put it in to just move it over.
It's cool. Yeah.
And that's part of the solution. Because if something gets
installed in the cloud, and if they I don't know which cloud
environment voltage or I don't know, the other nodes providers
are using if it's not good enough, take your node, trust
yourself, run it in your
own environment, right. Man The future's so bright.
Yeah, yeah. But it's again it's a marathon not a sprint. So I
understand the I understand it's, it can be frustrated,
frustrating due to its I'm going to interact with lightning and
they're still caveat and payments are still failing, but
are only Go ahead. Sorry.
I'm just saying the only way to resolve that is to keep building
and keep improving the existing tooling and keep working on the
on fixing things, fixing the problem, one problem after
another.
The biggest problem with the Bitcoin community and the
lightning community is the community itself. Unfortunately,
it's always like that. Something, something really
angered me this past week. You know, we have the Are you
familiar with pod? Ping Roy? Hmm. No, to pod ping is
basically a blockchain based messaging bus
for podcasts. Oh, you're talking about the hive? Yeah, yeah.
And I'll tell you, I'll tell you what made me mad is that we
there was a specific use case for something that podcasting
needs. And after many, many presentations, Dave and Dave,
and then Dave, you know, wouldn't once Dave was on board,
what do I need to talk about? I was like, okay, yeah, we were
convinced that this was the right way to do it. Now. It's
based on hive. And the hive blockchain seems to be a lot
more utility than shit coin. Although, I guess technically
it's a shit coin. What? What was so disappointing is, you know,
we're very excited about pod ping. It's visit future proofing
podcasting. To the degree that we know it's you know, that
blockchain is future proof. I see no way to do what pod ping
does in certainly not on chain with Bitcoin, or with the
Lightning Network. But the vitriol, the vitriol of people
coming in and trashing people was just and and this was a lot
of different ranges of people within the community. That was
it and but really, like, you need to stop right away and, and
then starting rumors, Adam curry is a shit coiner it's like, holy
crap. What is wrong?
The Bitcoin Maxis just showed there this week.
We got that in our group as well as the breeze telegram group as
well. But But I don't know, like Maxis has have the role in the
in the in the ecosystem. So if you can defend your what you're
saying basically, that you use the hive as it is a backend
implementation infrastructure, right. It's not it's not part of
the payments or testing, podcasting 2.0 compensation
system in any way. But to us from a technical standpoint, you
chose to use blockchain as a as an alternative to a database,
correct? Yeah, exactly.
So you need to defend that decision, you need to have the
ability to defend that decision. Because I think what, what what,
what I didn't found, I didn't find a blockchain to be could be
a better solution that then existing databases. So if you
can defend the solution, I think the max is will be okay.
No, no, we can defend the solution, the maxis need to read
what we're doing, what happens is the maxis come along and say,
Oh, hi, I've been podcasting. No, we all know
it. But that's not open only with the maxis, the superficial
discussion that is going on online. Like it's everywhere.
Yeah, I'm just, I'm just bitching about it. Because I
just I felt really bad for Brian because Brian is taken. First of
all, he's taken more abuse for me than anybody. I have abused
this man for two years. And he is he's a he's a wonderful,
wonderful person. He really he's doing this for podcasting. He
has his own hive agenda, which is fine. And every six months,
I'll try and understand hive again, like give up. It's just,
I have I'm getting closer each time. But but that's but that's
beside the point. It's just so destructive. That's all but just
stop doing that people.
The Steve Jobs thing of it, people have to mature into the
Steve Jobs understanding of this and what I'm specifically
talking about his famous statement, that as Apple people,
we need to stop thinking that Microsoft has to lose in order
for us to win. Yeah, like, if you're confident if you're
confident in the thing that you believe, then you don't have to
have everything else lose in order for your thing to succeed.
And but I'll be honest with you, that if someone wants to do an
implementation with stable coins or whatever ship coin, I mean,
who am I to say no, I mean, the spec is open. You can do it with
Fiat if you want if you want to
let your market decide exactly and but
the market but this is this is so it was easy because the eath
people there, they're here the East people, they just yell at
you whenever you go on Rogen. Yeah, it was like you said the
cerium sucks. So that's the that's my, that's exactly what
they sound like, actually, that's the eighth guy. That's
the guy. And, and for them, it's really easy because I always
say, Where's your code? Bitch? It's open, where's your code?
Where's your gas flowing through the system? That's easy. But
it's just when you get attacked from the behind. Just always a
little a surprising, that's all there's my first real
experience. And I mean, I got friends to
feature it's a feature item. It's not a bug. It's a way for,
for the community to striking detail.
So you always know how to calm me down. I love that about you.
I you know how much shit I got, like doing breweries like, like,
it's all around it going on, it will never stop. And I'm okay
with that. Like, it's part of being a of being a part of the
Bitcoin ecosystem. And I embrace that, and I love it. Because it
allows me to reflect on our decision, it allows us to
improve. And if I know that, if I'm confident in my decision, my
technical decision, then I can explain it. I stand behind my
decision
right now, but you know what? I've been, I've been in the
public eye since I was 19. I've taken a lot of shit my whole
life for a lot of different things. I'm just defensive of
the people who are in the project. That's all. I'm just
defensive. When when people just do that. It's like, ah, but
yeah, yes, I agree with you, in general is good, because it does
make you question and I think I Dave and I both have questions.
Everyone's question this. But you know, from a technical
standpoint, it's it's perfect. It's perfect for what we needed.
And it's,
we need another plus guests in order to dive into that, I can
tell you that personally, I so I so many blockchain projects and
I still is not convinced in the in the in the, like, blockchain
technology. Blockchain is a technology I don't see in it.
Like, but but data, it's a topic for another podcast.
Well, we get you want to thank some people. Adam,
I think we should definitely thank some people, Dave. Right.
And I wanted to say that a second is my favorite right now.
I really love that one. We really appreciate everybody who
supports the entire project podcasting 2.0 its value for
value. And with a book forthcoming from Adam curry and
Jhansi Dvorak, we're gonna we're gonna write our book, the value
for value book about the genesis, how it works, how to do
it. This is this is really needed right now in, in value
for value land, people need a little bit of a roadmap, and
we're going to give that book away value for value. So that'll
that'll be the the meta Excel Yeah, the medics, we're not
going to make it running and print it. When I put in PDFs,
you know, whatever, if every format and then
put it on the blockchain one paragraph.
Okay, we'll throw it in hive, no doubt. Which means that there's
no and it's, you know, just full disclosure, Roy and I talk
regularly, not as regularly as we should. And we, we talk about
all kinds of stuff. And usually I'm like, you know, how, how can
I make everyone some money on this thing? And Roy's answer is
always, man, you're gonna be rich, just to close to me, which
sounds right. I'm paraphrasing, of course. But every single time
we talk about projects and the funding, I always come back to
the same thing is like, if podcast index, if this project
had any outside funding other than honestly earned through API
and fees, it would suck it would somewhere down the line, it
would suck. So we made a very conscious decision. It's called
the vow of poverty, it's how most podcasts are start to and
to really stick with it and move through it now we do have costs
we do have stuff that needs to be paid for. And the more we do
the more cost and so people we really appreciate you supporting
us in time talent and treasure the three T's on the treasure
side, it's really quite interesting to me how the
Bitcoin community loves what we're doing love the love the
use case, I have yet to see any company of significant support
this project, it's okay, I'm just saying. So I would like to
add today to our pitch. If you have a podcast and you're using
value for value in podcasting 2.0 We've put our value our our
note Id on in the in the show notes. Feel free to add us to
your split as an extra to help support Feel free. We would
really appreciate that and be extra cool because then we can
also read some of your booster grams on our show.
Awesome says,
You know what? This just came to mind Dave, that may be a problem
I got to think about. We've been I've seen booster Graham show up
that we were clearly put in a split. And I'm like, wait a
minute, I don't do this show. Why is this showing up? Where
does what is this was really interesting.
This is all sold about pivot tables.
Exactly. So we as part of the value for value loop. We love to
thank everybody who supported us and read any messages, whether
it's fiyat fun writings, or booster grants. Either way,
either way, we love both.
I like that Thea theat fun scribbles?
So fun. Ooh, there you go. fiyat fun scribbles? There you go.
I'm redoing the fee. What's the fee Fun? Fun coupons first,
Marco Arment every month $500
Thank you very much Marco.
Wanted, you know, a critical, sustaining, sustaining donation
every single month that comes with $500 and I can't thank him
enough. Thank you, Martha. Always the other big donation
that we got this this month from Buzzsprout $500. Also Whoa, yep.
Yep. And they that is a subscript that's a monthly
subscriptions and monthly subscription five
Thank you. Oh my goodness.
Don't those to sustain cast
sucks a cast sucks
that's the ad that says this. This quid pro quo is?
That's right. You send us every single month you send us that
that $500 I will tell everyone how bad a cast sucks.
Well, that just means a cast on the pony. But we
don't accept money from a cast only if they boost the grant.
Okay, fair and balanced. This is fair and balanced. Thanks guys.
Yeah, thank you to bus for I appreciate that those two names
and donations are so so important. Who thank
you that actually feels really good to hear that
he does this kind of like every Monday Well this is tax time for
us Eric just finished our taxes you know as the as the LLC how
does this work?
We didn't put any money in our pocket but we were allowed to
pay taxes over
I know it's like last year I got a k one that told me that I did
I got like 1000 bucks or something like that. I'm like i
Where's this that mystical $1,000
supposedly guy didn't see it either. Like where did it go?
And then I got to put it on my tax return. Okay. Yeah, anyway,
it's the money is top of mind right now with having to pay
these taxes. We get $10 donation from Stephanie fuccillo podcast
consultant and all around podcast genius. Thank you
Stephanie.
What is definitely where she worked for do you know
she's independent? I'm pretty sure she's Miss she's written
some articles about pocket pockets and 2.0 been a big
supporter of
our great Thank you Stephanie.
And we got some booster grams clearly yes, our PayPal right
there.
Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
We got 1000 SATs from V. He gave us those SD pod friend and he
just says PIP you
Okay, so I just have to say I thought it would be cute to
leave the my Umbro on in the studio. It's it's literally five
arm lengths away and for some reason, even though I would
during no agenda even though for so I would from time to time. I
might hear it. It became a thing and people were trying to
trigger this booster Graham pew pew sound while my mic was open
while I wasn't playing a clip and what happened is really Dave
This is such a good sound. I've gotten 30 emails people saying
do this I'm read with your sound that I hear I hear like some
some some like pew sound is Is there something I know how much
you appreciate sound What are you did something was wrong with
that? It's that shit cuts through somehow.
Yeah, it's a notice the it breaks through the noise gates.
That note is the noise. Breaker. Yeah,
but you know, I liked it when Spencer had it running during
your live show. I love hearing that.
He must have had it piped in. Oh, yeah. No,
it was right to know it was direct. Yeah. And that that
makes a lot more sense. I just can't imagine that during no
agenda. DeVore I could go nuts.
Because Because on Na Na what you get is like,
although if I told him I said hey, that's money every single
time it comes in. He might he might Oh yeah, leave that on.
A burqa. Chad Ferro is perky with 3333 sets. Yeah, he says do
it for Mo Yeah. Boom.
Chad has been, you know, most He was fired from his job, man over
the mandates and but people stepped up man people boosting
like 100,000 SATs 200,000 SATs it's been beautiful to watch.
It's just freaking
like free Kevin moment. You know? Do it for MO Yes
indeed indeed to it from Sir Spencer
send us 330 3333 sets. Nice. Thank you. Yes. Through fountain
he says hope this reaches you in time. Looking forward to your
visit with us Sunday on both with us. Oh, that you read that
last that's
yeah, that was. Yeah, we got some new ones too. I don't know.
I don't know if you saw them all.
Okay, so, five 5000 SATs through to Satoshi stream. Through
fountain he says you mentioned Dave, you mentioned Dave boosts
too much are you oh you mentioned Dave boost too much.
Are you okay with me telling what rank you are in terms of
highest boosters institution stream podcast? Yeah, I
told him and I told him yes. And he didn't get back to me. Yeah,
and seen that he makes it sound like I've been boosting a lot.
Oh, well. I don't know you.
I I am the badass booster.
Sir dug through fountain. Give us 4400 SATs and he just says
boost yo, boost. Sir Doug is that it was Sir Doug. Oh, I
don't know. I'm just wondering if it's Doug from the chat room.
Oh, no, no, no.
It's not Doug from the chat room now.
This Bessie UK he gave us 117 SATs through fountain and he
says we need a Deutsche boost go podcasting.
Give you wait we talked we talked about that. We read this
one Yeah, we read this one because I immediately got a
tweet from from Germans. No, it was it was from him actually he
tweeted me and said ah we snuck into podcasting 2.0 board
meeting we need a German boost. Okay, so that's an old winner
this by the way. I know that I know what we call it we call it
Deus boost.
I don't remember this one from last week. Yeah,
I'm weird that way.
Oh, you know what? Okay, here we go. Satoshi stream came in later
and he says Dave is the largest booster ever to Satoshis dot
stream podcast number two boosted see number two boosted
half I don't know what that means. That means
whoever the number two is boosted half the amount you
boost.
Oh, so I basically own you own I own boosters you are
paying me me a lot
this. This is just circular money.
Well, that's the point. That's exactly what you want. Roi is
not it isn't circular money, isn't it? Aren't we proving the
whole thing here?
And not specifically in that example.
You know, you're using stop using science and math.
Really? Party pooper?
Yeah, it says oh, look at this. He says Adam is number eight.
I'm a loser. What is this? You're not You're almost outside
the top 10 Holy
crap that I'm not used to this stream mine. I know. Well, I
have to up my boosting game. Now is that is that number of boosts
or overall value of boost?
It doesn't say here so clearly says you stream needs to boost
us again. Yep. And let us know and explain more. Yes.
Roy, this really works is that's the great part. I think
gamification is so so hard. I'm so lovely. People literally say
Oh, this is one of the most enjoyable ways to part with my
money. Yeah,
I'm boosting for breeze because you're brilliant. Wow.
Here's a breeze right here.
We got Brees is always number one or number two every day.
Yeah, yeah, you're up there. Yeah, you're not number eight.
Let's put it that way.
It's 100 sets through the breeze app. He says more morning tests.
Yeah, breeze users are cheap passes. Man. That's that's 100
SATs thanks
117 SATs from from messy UK. Oh, there you go again, is we need a
Deutsche boost. This is a different boost. Boost. Boost.
Bessie is is got Alzheimer's. I mean he's really struggling.
He's boosting things he's already boost way
I got the Alzheimer's boost boost. And by the way, not
anything bad against Alzheimer's because it sucks.
No, no, no. Sorry. Let me see now. Let's say that he's seen
Oh, yeah. Mary Oscar. Oscar, also known as Oscar Mary, sent
us 22,222 SATs big row of ducks through fountain of course nice.
He says he says until March 1, all new fountain users who
listened to a podcast will get 1000 Free SAS trap value for
value go podcasting. Now, that's
that's some onboarding right there. Roy's ROI.
Yeah, I'll never do that.
No, he won't. I know he won't. I know he won't
never give up preset.
Hey, but Roy, let me ask you a question. If I gave you 1000
SATs to give to your new users, would you do it?
I can't keep the fee.
Free. So I'll give them 800. Now, but as a serious question,
if we had someone who wanted to help, okay, we have a use case,
we have someone who wants to help people onboard onto
Bitcoin, and immediately give them a sign up bonus of free
Satoshi sent to any wallet they want. I'm sorry. Sorry.
I don't like I don't I saw like, dozens of initiatives like that.
Never walked
Tell me tell me why. What are the pitfalls?
Because you don't get a quality users? What do you get if you
get people that wants to use the free set? And they don't use it
for like, for good? A
year or evil?
What happens? Typically, if you don't, if users don't understand
the meaning of Bitcoin, the value of Bitcoin, the SATs won't
go anywhere.
If it's but if it's loaded in the context of a podcast app,
and you make them, you make them spend it. But you need a way to
make them spend the SATs,
right, yeah.
What about this? What about this, you give you give them
1000 SATs? And if they haven't spin it within? Within five
days? It all goes to me.
Perfect. Working on that day gone? Probably. Does we like
that. No, but But generally speaking, I don't really like
paying users.
It is the way of the world of course, that's how the current
world works with users. I appreciate we want to change. I
know I That's why I appreciate what you're saying about
understanding the value. That's, that's exactly. That's a very
good point.
It's value for value, right? And there's value in this that 1000
sets that you're giving up.
It's a problem that you're this practical ROI.
I know we should never invite him back.
Yes, yes. This was way too much capitalist was three 333 says
from coal McCormick, do fountain he says I started my own podcast
called America plus, I talk about innovation happening in
the world and in myself. Still learning how to create chapters
but I can sure except SAS
whoops. Nice, man. Yeah, thank you. Cool.
We got some we got to move. We got so many booster grams here.
Hunt 100 sets through through breeze is bleep. No name or
anything out from Franco Celerio yet
again. Again. I'm just
Franco Celerio through cast ematic sin is 5150 sets. Oh, Van
Halen.
That's right. 51 cities. You have to go to these insane
asylum, isn't it? Yeah. 5150 is the code for the cop. That's why
Van Halen use it is the cop code for him. You know, I'll give you
the exact Go ahead. Read the read the note and I'll tell you
Yes, yes. A Franco said is 5153 test medic. He says is it a
problem? If every time I have to debug some value for value issue
in Casta medic, I send you some money. That is not a problem,
Franco. That is absolutely not a problem. We actually encourage
it.
5150 is the number of the section of the Welfare and
Institutions Code which allows a person with a mental challenge
to be involuntarily detained for a 72 hour psychiatric
evaluation. Oh, okay. Also known as Baker acting I think you
could do it to your kid.
I think that might come in useful Sunday.
Yes, yes. Hey, kid. 51 That's why they put it in there is that
Van Halen had had humor.
Mere Mortals podcast, our buddy Karen downs and as a super rush
boost 21 112. And he says, Jay Jones sounds like the bad boy
developer your rebellious daughter brings? plays fast and
loose with the law but faster and looser with code. Oh yeah.
Your API and then break your heart. Hide your kids. Hide your
kids hide your pod ping and hide you SAS because he's data
scraping everybody out of here. Here's my here's my question.
attribution to bring this about. Thank you Karen.
That guy, he's a poet. He's a poet
in like, freakin 12 languages. He has a polymath. Yeah. Thank
you Carrie. Martin from pod friend day. Notify 1932
Boom shaka laka he noticed that that Martin comes back in the
comments just accelerated a little bit somehow something
happened
it because he's he said because he's such a bright like he's a
ray of sunshine
he is yes. A ray of Danish sense sunshine. He's our he's our our
tasty Danish my whole goal in life by the way is to make you
laugh, Dave. That's all I'm here for. And I'll be here all week.
This
pod friend didn't taste the Danish developer Martin since
25,932. says and he says hello world. I guess he's doing some
tests. We are beneficiaries of this. Yeah. How you doing?
Hello. Hello World.
Cast Breeland 6600 says through fountain and he says haha, pew
pew in the NA show. Let me see. The PPU in the NA show. Let me
think of the sound on let's say only fans. Were a bunch of sluts
and it works for the show boost.
Which reminds me just what happened to your only fans. Roy
thought you were going to do an only fans. Satoshi version.
Yeah, we got distracted a bit. But we'll we'll we'll do that.
Yeah. It'll just it'll distract.
Yes, that's yeah. No, that's that's the service that
everyone's waiting for it.
Okay, yeah, it's coming. It's coming. I know
what you're you don't think you don't think that's true? I know.
I know, Roy. He means that I mean, oh, you can do anything
you want with it, but only fans is just a version.
And now guys. Okay. He said he's, um, Alex, as he said, it's
coming.
No, believe me, believe me. In my mind, I said get some tissue
but I don't do that anymore.
I can't help you call me out. I had to admit it. Sorry. I'm a 12
year old.
perpetually. Yes.
Okay, in for Vieques since 1234 sets, and he says thank you for
your coding. Well, you're welcome. They said that they're
curio caster. C 2222 SATs from B mozzie. From Brian. Through
fountain he says spew those sets. We'd like to
pre See primitive one. Interesting. Gave us 12345 sets
Nice. Yeah. And he says my hood friend and I want to do a
podcast about cover songs. I think that you should Yes.
We actually talked about this on the Macedon. You gotta be
careful. Yeah, cover Ville is the only podcast that has really
done that successfully. We got to do a lot of clearances and
especially if you're receiving SATs, just be careful on that.
Oh, that's because of the Yeah, this music rice you know, you
can just get into some shit there. So yeah, consult a
lawyer. Or sorry.
John's BRTs in his 49,000 SATs. Whoa, mountain. Wait.
Is he a baller for today?
A dd dd let me look into the list. Yeah.
Shot kala Blaze. Boost Nice.
Cleese's stacking SATs and harvesting hive Thank you jobs
BRT. 70 cc. What's the 7777? Is that? A name for that? Soccer
sevens, soccer sevens through from Harry Duran from the
podcast junkies and he gave us this this he found and he says,
I never thought an episode about building the future of
podcasting could be so damn sexy. Harry Duran podcast
junkies see
how many more do we have Dave?
We got a few more 1000 says from mollusc. And he says, wondering
about how Adam is doing and his journey with Linux and
podcasting, go podcasting.
Go podcasting. Well, podcast. Linux is still kind of in and
please don't email me. Linux is still kind of incompatible with
the way I work with audio. Let's just put it that way.
He sent us the exact same message again so I'm thinking
what happens he's using breeze and he machinegun boosted. Let's
see. I'd like I'm liking this feature. Now.
This is a high quality feature, Roy. thank you Steven B. Oh,
I'll have to send you what this looks like. It's Steven B that
the B is the Bitcoin symbol Hmm Nice.
Oh, I see it here Oh is 1111
is 34 1703 curio caster and he says I'm gonna live 3417 boost
in honor of bowl after bowls first live Adam show yet and I
have to say the Steven V and game, curio caster he's Oh, he's
on the bleeding edge of every new feature that comes out of
podcasting tip one oh, he really was helpful for that
even today in sovereign feeds Roy, you've got to check out
sovereign feeds calm, you can literally take any podcast and
you can output a fully 2.0 compatible feed all the features
are in there. And he made it because he added something for
the cross app comments. I think you have to have the platform
and the method. So it's activity pub Macedon. And I opened up
sovereign feeds and literally said right there, Adam, this is
where you need to put this. I mean, he's coding shit in
personally for me. That was so hot.
That idea that oh, it's good idea.
That's a slam or not. But I'll take
No, no, no, not a slam at all. Oh, no, no, no. When you know
that your user has specific when you're, you know, that your
users have specific, or when you can anticipate as a developer
that that a specific section of your users are going to have
questions or is always the right thing to guide them in the app
itself, rather than to wait for a support request. Well, that's
what I'm saying. No, it wasn't a you. That's that's exactly the
way as far as I'm concerned now. That I think the best apps to do
that. It's like, Hey, I already know that this is going to be a
problem for us tell them in the app.
But it actually said, Adam, that was the fun thing.
Oh,
it didn't just say here's where you add them put this in here.
Okay. A
different story.
Let's see. All right. So we're sovereign.
feeds.com
Floridian slips, give us 5000 SATs. And he says, Thanks for
all your work on 2.0. Can you recommend a channel for
questions to be directed and having issues with the index and
boosting figured out what try with a boost to get some info?
Well, yeah, the channel is podcast index dot social. So
interesting
that I'm missing some of these booster grams.
Alright, well, you know, they these are selectable so Oh,
right. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah, they may they may not have
chosen to include, or
that's what I'm always worried about. Since this is just a
monitor 1% split. I'm always worried that that's just not
getting through.
I think it depends on the app that it comes through. Because I
can cast a magic if you boost. It comes up and you can choose
who you want to boost and one of the sections selections is
everyone. Yeah, but mostly you have that think, like bright
with Breeze if you boost it just goes to everybody always.
I actually don't like that feature anymore. What? I'd like
everyone in it, I'd like everyone. It's so kind of rude.
It's like I'm excluding someone it was intended to do to give
someone an extra boost, which I don't think it's used for.
Oh, you mean like it should always go to everybody? Like
that's my personal feeling? Yeah.
Yeah. Can't be a good coder is gonna code.
That's right. That's right. That's just why I use breeze.
Because I can, you can't choose who you send it to. And you can
just be a low life and send 30 SATs.
We're enabling monetizing trolls. Anonymous through us and
it's 10,000 SAS through cast ematic and he just says free
media. Yay. free media.
Now, did you not? Oh, no, that's a different one. I'm sorry. Yes.
Got it. 10,000 Nice. Thank you.
Bill Prague. Since 3000. Sets the pod friend and he says don't
be a maxi go podcasting. Podcast see dubs 3333. Through the boost
CLI shell script, nice. A he's see. He sent a link.
And that definitely didn't go to me. That's a direct key send I
think.
Okay, so he sent he sent a link and this is a link to his to the
boost bots GitHub repo, where they're working on all the
different connectors to cool to send boost to IRC and Mastodon
Oh, nice. Yeah, he said we're working on matrix next.
Well, you hear that Roy matrix? Are you still you guys still
working on that?
On the back burner?
Everything I say to Roy is Are you alright, Roy? Do you okay?
I'm good. That good? Okay, a lot. A lot of boosts like
what do you want to leave? No. Okay. This is the best part of
the show.
Martin Martin from pod friend. We have a series of C 100 100.
Oh, he's definitely Testing. Yeah, he's doing some tests
100 100 100 I'm just giving them credit. Um, quick credit for
these. It's like 1000 SATs of boost CQ,
Mr. 100 they
have an extra 100 from row from Roy. And that was all from
Martin doing testing and then we got floating slips again with
500 SATs and he says testing your splits. See this is exactly
the way you fund open source projects. Yes through testing
things testing things with
money is a beautiful I would add there's another t shirt
podcasting. 2.0 we test shit with money.
Yeah, I like it. No, test net is for wet. Everything. Everything
is everywhere. Gary Arntz in his 3141 sets. And he says that's to
fountain and he says just returning the love today who is
still remains the only person who has boosted my podcast. Gary
aren't everything everywhere daily. Oh, how you doing this
year? We know Gary. And the number one booster assists
right? I
mean, you should you should have a little badge next to your name
on the master doll. I'm gonna do that.
Number one booster. That's right.
Wow, that was gay.
Oh, thanks. Comic Strip blogger gave us he's the delimiter is
end of end of donation segment almost
10,033 cents through pod friend and he says howdy David AC. I
hope you are not invaded by Russia yet like my Slavic
brothers in Ukraine are. You're welcome to listen to our podcast
about AI called AI cooking read by former famous actor and four
pub owner Gregory William Forsythe foreman. Just type in
your web browser or any podcast app AI cooking. Yo
Yo just boost comics blogger gets it man. He gets it. Yeah,
he's sending Sass to every single podcast with his message
and he's getting it out there. I love it.
We get really good or bad. It's like one o'clock in the morning.
And we're almost done.
And I actually want to go out
to your party or Roy, you got in party? Yeah. I don't know. I'm
just asking. I don't know. I mean, I somehow whenever I
envision you I just don't envision you as a party guy.
Depends how you define a party.
Well, I'm coming to Israel. So here's just fun. That's right.
You're gonna show me your party. I can't wait. I want my favorite
Roy story is when we're in Miami and Roy can't get a can't get an
Uber and he thought
his card his card failed his credit card. thing. Yeah.
Card failed. So then Roy gets on to Brees boss, a boss like an
Uber card, a gift card through bit. Refill a bit refill and
Ubers and Ubers himself out of there in like five minutes
that we were slick. It was very slick. Yeah.
Okay, so we got some monthly donors here. Just to wrap it up.
We got pod news at $50 Keith Gibson, in $50. Dwayne Goldie at
$8 Paul Erskine at $11.14 Miko Goggin at $5 Charles current at
$5 Christopher Raymer at $10 Sean McCune at $20 cone
glotzbach at $5 James Sullivan at $10.02 coats at $6.66 and
Jordan dunville at $10 That wraps up our group
in the last boost that K booster grams that came in during the
show. Cost peelings. I'm sorry sir Spencer sent us to boost
33,369 SATs each with a duplicate message so I don't
know if he meant to do that but it was no I did because they
were an hour apart. Thank you for helping us make podcasting
history shout out to rare encounter with Abel Kirby and
cold acid who also implemented Live This Week go podcasting
love from Sir Spencer Dame DeLorean and bowl of after bow.
We love that. Nice. I love that. Thank you sir Spencer, thank you
so much for doing that. That was just that was just beautiful.
Roy Have you got to get on? You got to get heli pad man. Okay,
on your own bro.
Yeah, but I didn't have to start doing a podcast, right? I want
to say who's coming?
I'll be your first guest.
I like to dust boots. That's boots.
But you know, Roy, I have to say and I want I want to thank you
so much. Really? Thank you for for your trust in the project.
Thank you for your dedication. Your team as well even though we
know you do everything
come on. I don't I don't do anything that that my team is
doing all the job. I'm just going on podcast talking about
it. But it really shouldn't be me thanking you guys like first
you're my two favorite people in the whole world. Amazing. Dave
is amazing. I don't know if everyone knows how amazing
Davies I
do. I do. I'm raising my hand. I know how amazing Dave is. He's
he says yes, I mean Eazy
E making me blush man. And you're an inspiration, Adam
really? Like?
Well, thank you. You still you, you put your business on the
line for this. And that's and that's appreciated and you are a
confidant of mine because you're the one that always takes the
time to explain this shit when I'm like what is going on? And
Android likes to gossip like me, I think I think we share that he
pretends that we don't do it. We gossip about everybody. We have
our little tea session. Girl chat. Yeah. Oh, yeah,
definitely. Part of the process. But what is but what is
happening here is way beyond anything I could have imagined.
You know, we took a concept of value for value concept, and we
translated it. And this that's happening now, that took me 10
years to get that going with PayPal, you know, even to some
degree like that the immediacy, everything that's happening, it
is so exhilarating. So exciting. And I think this, to me, this is
the onboarding that we need. At this moment. It is because
people understand value when they do it. They understand
feeling good about the value. It feels incredibly good. And and I
did with my wife, we started a podcast career in the keeper, re
all only podcasting 2.0 I'd never submitted it anywhere else
only into the index, self, self hosted everything. You know,
we're running the node at home. And within 30 minutes of putting
our first episode out, the joy of just little bits of SAT
streaming in was was like, like 20 years ago, we started
podcasting. It is so cool. Amazing, really is and
appreciate everything you're doing. And we look forward to
hopefully using your LSP offerings in the future. Yeah,
yeah, we will let the Our purpose is to spread this joy,
right? It doesn't need to be only in like, the breeze app or
the fountain app needs to be everywhere in every podcasting
app. And part of our job is to find the right ways to do that.
Also, yeah, in a safe way, and I love that I love that you're so
committed to the cause, you know, to noncustodial and making
all that stuff work in in a in a true in a true way.
Yeah, baby, you don't have a peer to peer baby. Like, that's
what we need.
And I always appreciate talking to you. And it was this was, you
know, no exception being on the show. Because you you do help us
think you really do you put us in in a good frame of mind.
You're pretty you're pretty unique that way, my brother,
you're pretty unique that way. Yes. You can put that on a t
shirt. My name is Roy. I'm unique.
i People think yes.
Do you do? You do you do? Alright, Dave, you got to get
back to the to the day job. I
guess. That's it.
They mad at you again, because you're always late on Friday.
No, no, I think they think you've taken a lover.
Now I'm working like working like 50 to 60 hours a week right
now.
I'm broke. I'm say did what cuz tax season is coming up again.
Yeah, yeah, it's just crazy. Alright, that's it for the board
meeting. Roy, thank you so much. You know, we'll we'll have you
on again soon. whenever, whenever you're ready. Feel free
to abuse us. We love it. I thank you guys. Thank you very much,
Roy. We'll be back next week with another board meeting of
podcasting. 2.0 Take care everybody. We'll see you then.
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