Podcasting 2.0 for June 5th, 2026, episode 262. PodCleanse. Have
you been wondering what's going on with podcasting? Well, you
came to the right place. This is Podcasting 2.0. It's
where we do the board meeting every single week. In
fact, we are the only... boardroom that never meets in
secret. I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of the
Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who holds
all the power. My friend on the other end, the
one, the only, Mr. Dave! Please. Meeting in secret is
way too much trouble. It's cool, man. It's cool. No,
it's cool. You got to have Chatham House rules. We
have Chatham House rules, everybody. I don't even know what
that means. Oh, Chatham. What is Chatham House rules? Well,
you know what Chatham House is? No. Chatham House is
basically the UK version of the Council on Foreign Relations.
Of course it's British. Yeah, of course. And so Chatham
House, you know, that's where the liberal world order decides
their rules there. So Chatham House... The international rules-based order
is what we're talking about. That's where that all takes
place. And then they give the Council on Foreign Relations
their marching orders and somewhere the Bilderberg Group comes in
and the Trilateral Commission. But ultimately, Chatham House. Anything discussed
at Chatham House may not be discussed outside of Chatham
House. It's a bit like Fight Club, only with nerds.
*laughs* And old rich people. Very old rich people and
weenies. Yes, exactly. It starts at Chatham House, goes to
the Council of Foreign Relations, then to Bilderberg, and eventually
it winds its way all the way down to the
Amp Accords. The Amp Accords. Yes, the Amp. It's real,
this is uh, this is how things work in the
kingdom man, so. Uh... You know, I have my, I
love my robot. My robot is... Don't say that. I
do. No, I love my... Just find a different way
to express it. Well, it's a robot. I mean, it's
just a robot. It's not like... I didn't say I
love my AI or my chatbot. I said I love
my robot because my robot... But when you say I
love my robot, it just makes me think of the
movie Her or something. Oh, no. Don't do it. Don't
do it. So my robot is very highly tuned for
the boardroom. And, you know, it's built all kinds. of
stringers and agents and it goes out and so it
brings stuff in that's important. It whispers the entire power
podcast, brings me back stuff I need to listen to,
tells me the topics. You know, so I can like
hang out with my wife while the robot's doing the
work. And today it was. filled with all kinds of
little bits and bobs from you and spurlock and like
oh this is interesting And I've been thinking a lot
since our last board meeting. Hello, boardroom, by the way.
Good to see y'all. And then like 15 minutes ago,
you say, oh yeah, by the way, Spurlock on the
show today. Which I had missed that email because you
always copy me on the invite. Our system consists of
Dave invites somebody and sends out an invite, a calendar
invite. And if I catch it, then, you know, oh,
yeah, that's right. So I had to send them out
a... Does that qualify as meeting in secret? I don't
think it does. It's not really, no. Okay, no. And
he's like the perfect guy to round out the trio
on the show today as we... as we chair the
board meeting. Because I'm just full of ideas, man. I
got so many good ideas. And I'm so excited to
share it with you. I mean, I've got, I got,
I'm bringing stuff to the table, but if I don't
want to. You know, I don't want to throw cold
water on your excitement here, so feel free to share.
Well, I mean, I have a rundown. Why don't we
bring Spurlock in? Yeah, he's the kind of guy that
has nothing to promote. You know, he's rich, independently rich.
He has a farm or something. I don't know what
he's doing. He's got livestock. Yeah, Brussels sprouts. Ladies and
gentlemen, please welcome to the boardroom, the man behind OP.
From the great state of New Jersey, John Spurlock. Hey,
guys. Good to be here. Always fun and ready to
talk about WWDC next week. Yeah. Okay. Wrong podcast. That's
all I got. Maybe you can go on with those.
Those Overcast guys, talk about that there. Liquid glass sucks
so bad! There you go, there's your whole podcast. Hmm.
Everybody hates liquid glass. Do you hate liquid glass? I've
actually been out of podcasting for a while. We went
on a kind of like a week-long trip. And you
know how it is. It's a great time to kind
of like... Declare podcast. bankruptcy and live a real life.
But then you come back and then a lot of
stuff has happened and so I've been catching up. It's
very interesting times. Very interesting times we're living in. That's
called a pod fast, by the way. Pod cleanse. I
do recommend it, though. It is nice. It is nice,
everyone. The danger though, there's a lot of danger in
pod fasting because... Sometimes you find that your life is
so much better that you don't resume. You don't want
to go back. Yeah. Well... Really? Do you feel that
way, Dave? Do you feel that if you stop listening
and you get back into it? feel that your life
was better without them? The total hours of podcasts I
consume. if you charted it on a monthly basis for
the last five years, has steadily declined. Yes, it has
been on a downward trajectory. Not precipitous, but a very
steady downward decline. I like once every five or six
weeks I drive to Austin honestly to get my hair
cut and It's only because I'm loyal to the girl
who's been cutting my hair for 16 years. But man,
I love, because I don't drive much. I drive to
HEB, you know, like 10 minutes, eight minutes. So I
have an hour and a half each way. And I'm
just like, listen to this and listen to that. And
then I'm really into it. I'm listening to way more.
I just, I'm listening to way more audio books than
podcasts. Cause I don't. Okay, honestly, it's news that I
just can't tolerate anymore. I'm so tired of the news
cycle. You don't listen to No Agenda anymore. You just
skip it. You're done with it. I stopped listening to
no agenda like two years ago. No, thank you. Because,
because, um, for this reason, but for the reason that
I feel special, no, for the reason, uh, the reason
I stopped listening was that. Okay, this is it. This
may be an interesting story. Okay. So the reason I
stopped listening was because... I didn't want... to Here are
the things you said on No Agenda. so that it
would then affect my the discussion here valid point so
i would always avoid So what would happen is I
would always avoid the Thursday show of No Agenda. Oh,
okay. Because I was afraid you'd say something that I
wanted it to be fresh when I heard it on
Friday. So then that led to, well, sometimes you would
say something on Sunday. That would bleed through and give
me ideas and stuff like that. Like, ah, I can't
do this. So I stopped. listening. all together. And I
was like, I just, I want to be fresh on
whatever Adam's thinking process is. Okay. Well, that's good. And
I understand. I mean, I was just telling pastor Jimmy
this morning. It's like, I love doing podcasting 2.0 because
it's really, I mean, yeah. Board meeting, podcasting, blah, blah,
blah. Really, it's just an opportunity for me to catch
up with Dave. Yeah, that's really what it is. I
just want to catch up with Dave, see what's going
on. Because we used to talk more, you know, like
on the phone and stuff like that. And then now,
you know, now this is the time I get to
talk to you. Yeah, and it would be like, okay,
you hang up first. No, you hang up first. Remember
those days. I love you, sweetheart. Bye. Okay, hang up.
I'm going to hang up now. I'm really going to
hang up. Yes, here I go. But then, but the
funny thing that happened though, was that after I stopped
listening to no agenda for that other reason. I found-
I now f- find any sort of podcast that has
news in it is annoying intolerable oh yeah oh yeah
it is totally intolerable everything is i can't i can't
even it's hard for me to even listen to this
week in bitcoin the only reason i i listen to
it is because i just support chris and yeah everything
he does that that's still my Guaranteed every week go
to listen. I don't think I ever miss an episode.
There's just something about it that I just like it.
He's using a lot of robots too now for his
clips. I need to coordinate with him. Y'all should use
economies of scale. So. John, what's your go-to podcast, man?
What do you never miss? You know, I was just
thinking. Pod Save America? I'm into this, it's because I
listen to hundreds of- Goal hanger? Hundreds, hundreds. So I
have so many podcasts that I have subscribed to. in
my Little app that I have here. Oh, that's just,
you're just helping the podcast industrial complex with your auto
download. I mean, that's not doing anything. Well, actually, so
I'm still using an app that I did a while
ago to learn SwiftUI back in the day. And it
doesn't auto download anything. So when it comes in, I
do an initial swipe. You know, and most I swipe
away. Nope, not it. So they're actually getting from me.
whether or not I actually intend to listen. And once
I download, I pretty much do eventually listen to. Very
few auto downloads from me, but I actually get this
question all the time because you say you work in
podcasting and the first question is something like... Is that
your pickup line? Hey, baby. I work in podcasting. I'm
big in podcasting. If they say, what are your top
three podcasts? And I have no, you know, you can't
answer something like that. People ask me that all the
time. And another one is, what's your favorite song of
all time? What's your favorite music video? Yeah, you should
have something, something ready for that. Alba, Alba, dancing queen.
Come on, man. I heard, I finally, I saw a
good trick the other day. There was a karaoke thing
going on. And someone picked tequila. And I was like,
that's genius. The whole time you're just sitting there watching
this person dance and then they say one word. This
is a perfect karaoke song. Tequila. So I need an
equivalent of that for a podcast. Like, what's my favorite?
Podcasting 2.0, clearly. Obviously. Did you get any on you,
Dave? I'm going to wipe it off here. That's why
we were at the Black Label Society concert. He's like,
you know what my favorite city is? Nashville. Of course.
What city are we in tonight? I mean, at the
risk of turning this into this weekend AI, I am
interested, like, have you done anything, Adam, on the client
side of things? Like, do you have your robot go
out and... sift through your podcast and say like, Hey,
just give me the. Sort of important bit. on the
listening side because I could see that being useful once
you start trusting it. What I did is, and I
have other things to talk about, but I will tell
you this. There's this site called BingIt.io, which redirects to
noagenda.clipgenie.com. And, uh... Dean, who set that up. He has
all the episodes, all the transcripts, all the clips, all
the show notes, and he's run some AI stuff robot
over it. And it's a search engine. So if you
go in there and you search for something, then it'll
say, okay, here's the relevant no agenda. episodes and you
can listen to you can listen to because we publish
all the clips so he has the clips you can
click on the articles but you can also just in
the transcript click on it, and then you hear that
part of that show, which is fun because, you know,
some of it is like really bad quality. It's 15
years old. So I hooked that into the robot. So
I said, look, here's a five-hour Senate confirmation hearing. go
and find clips in this and measure it against the
corpus of everything we've done for the past 18 years.
So it'll go back and it'll find things that we
said. previously so it gets kind of an idea of
the attitude that we had about it and then it
knows what what more or less it knows what I
want from a clip out of it And it'll make
a series of three to five clips I mean, not
bad. Now that's still on the production side, but anything
on the personal listening side where it's like, there's too
many podcasts I need. I need help. Anything like that?
No. I think an app would probably be the best
helper there. Exactly what I said. Pod News Weekly Review.
I don't always have time to listen to it just
because of my schedule when it comes out and then
stuff I'm doing Friday morning. So the workflow is. Find
out what's going on find out what pieces correspond to
what i already wanted to talk about or what dave
and spurlock and whatever's going on on no agenda on
podcast index.social And then it'll highlight those for me And
then I go into the podcast app and I hit
those chapters. So it's kind of doing a couple of
things for me. So that is indeed on the client
side. Yeah, I've actually been really surprised with how often
I use transcripts. And I use them primarily through Apple
Podcasts. So, like, yesterday I was listening to the catching
up on the AMP stuff. Yes! And I have to
say, like, they did put out two... fairly informative episodes
on what they're doing. Although their site wasn't great, they
did talk about it. They have a podcast? Yeah, they
have two podcasts. I subscribe to it. And they did
lay it out rather well. Who is they? Oxford Road.
This is Oxford Road's thing, right? I've had a lot
of thoughts about this and I'm glad that you took
us right there into the amp thing. So the way
I understand it, let's just skip the definition of a
podcast for a second. Um, and, and I will come
back to that. So in essence, they have... come up
with a new measurement guidelines. And... The measurement guidelines are
Pretty simple. I mean, in fact, I feel that they
really made a huge mistake. By saying, okay, a play
is 30 seconds of content played, audio or video, once
per user per session. than the number of unique users
who had a podcast. I'm not quite sure what that
means should have been unique anyway it seems like something
wrong with that sentence an ad impression a commercial begins
playing for the user these are very specific words and
add audience the number of users exposed to an ad
impression which sounds like a guy in a in a
dark alley opening up his coat like Hey, look at
this ad. Are you impressed? I was exposed. I was
just, I was thinking about this. I mean, let's just
talk about that first. What is, because you, both you
and Dave were going back and forth on the, on
the mastodon. What is, what is your initial thoughts about
this? about these measurements. Again, I try to look past
the marketing side, which is clearly a marketing side for
the Rocks Road Road. And if you listen to their
podcast, the 12 people that they have on the... on
the group are folks that work with Oxford Road, right?
And they are ad buyers and networks. And I think
there's a guy from Libsyn on there as well. And
they had their own summit and they picked 12 people
to be part of the secret group. I have no
clue why they decided to really. go gung-ho on the
secret route. Multiple times they're like, oh, we've been doing
this in secret. I don't know if they think that's
a good thing or a bad thing. I think it's
Chatham House. It's Chatham House vibe. More, uh... exclusive or
I don't know. No, no, I think it means that
we didn't believe me. I know how Chatham House people
think. And these to me are Chatham House people. They're
thinking, you know, we did this. We really got together
and, you know, and we were underground and we didn't
have any outside. influences and so this was the best
way to do it so we didn't have anyone pushing
or pulling at us which reminds me of the movie
by Danny Kaye I think it is A Song is
Born. Gotta look that up. And it's a bunch of
professors and they go down in secret. for years to
write the definitive encyclopedia of music. And as they're ready
to publish, they come out and they're, here we are,
we're ready to go public with our encyclopedia, and jazz
happened. And they completely missed that. And they're like, what
is going on? What happened to music? It's a great
movie. And so... I think that that was well-intended more
as a, we were serious, you know, we put our
time into it. That's what I think that is. It
was a bit of marketing, but I, I don't think
it's nefarious per se. And there are three, three of
the members that aren't comfortable with being listed even. So
that, that goes to the. you know, we have to
be sensitive as far as a lot of the decision
makers aren't in that group. So if a company is
signing up to some of these proposals, they may not
even be able to make the decision within the company
itself. Yeah. But I honestly just want to look at
it as a, and I think I tried to say
this yesterday in the group, is just look at it.
from what they have proposed and I'm really allergic to
all these, especially what happens with software now. Not proposed,
they ratified, let's just be clear. They have with no
dissenting votes. But the stuff they've produced, right? Like what
is actually there today? And there's not a lot and
they say as much. Personally, I'm really sick and tired
of software companies. pre-announcing things, right? So I will, I'll
try not to pre-announce things, right? And say, it's coming,
it's coming in three months. No, if you have it,
you know, there's so much stuff out there, let's limit
the news to like actual news. But I mean, the
definitions that they've laid out, I think it's useful as
a starting point for discussion. Like I, ultimately I think
what they want is... that the players would somehow... feel
that there's, and this is why I went back into
the transcript. I wanted to know their exact language because
it's like, they used a great word. I couldn't remember,
but they want to hasten the demand. for this idea
right so they want to get it out in the
world and sort of make it more apparent that this
is a problem for some people. This is a problem
for people that are in the advertising business and podcasting
when they comparatively are using podcasting as a channel in
relation to other channels, right? So there's certain things that
podcasting can give you and then there's some metrics that
it can't. And so they're hitting these problems. fully agree
there's probably people that have these problems and it's just
more of a way for them to get it out.
and into the world and make sure that other people
know about it. So in that respect, I don't have
a huge problem with it. I do think it's going
to be hard, like, do they have Apple on board
with this? Do they have YouTube? Ultimately, they want Apple,
YouTube, and Spotify to agree to these numbers. are these
metrics and I'm not sure. Why they would do that
ever or why they would do that now? Oh man,
because that is what always happens in podcasting. When Dave
and I started this... August of 2020. Apple's never going
to do it. Never going to do it. If you
don't get them on board, it's not going to happen.
We've been hearing that for 10 years. 10 years. And
now we are 16 years into the Apple. If Apple
doesn't do it, it won't happen. It's not important. Blah,
blah, blah. And what you see is Apple now does
stuff kind of without even asking. asking anybody, you know,
whoa, okay, we'll do HLS video. So it's still just
as pathetic as it always was. And on the secret
WhatsApp group, are you in that, John, the WhatsApp group?
I am, yes. I think I know the one you're
talking about. Secret, by the way. The hilarious part is
there's a secret WhatsApp. group complaining about the secret amp
group and nice and in the group it's like Their
solution is to yammer about it. Oh, we need to
invite more people into the group. And I love this.
I hope they never kick me out. I love this
group because I am a WhatsApp user because of... friends
in Europe. And I just, you know, it's on mute.
So I just go in and look at it every,
every, you know, a couple of times a day to
see what's going on. And it's like, okay, we need
to get so-and-so in. Yeah, we got so-and-so in. Well,
how come they didn't do that? I'd be like, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. I guess this group isn't Chatham
House Rules, then, huh? It's totally Chatham House rules. In
fact, listen to this. I think this is from Cridlin
explaining the rules. We don't quote from this group, even
me. And Apple has threatened to pull my arms and
legs off for something I've written on here in the
past, so there are eyes here. So there's also spies
in the group. I mean this is... Oh that's great!
That's great! Look, I will... Please, nobody has ever asked
me to be a part of any of these groups.
I've never gotten an invite to them. Do not ever
ask me because the answer is no. I hate this.
crap i'm completely allergic to all secret groups do not
even bother it's a it nothing gets me I mean...
Nothing gets me more. irritated than a bunch of secret
groups ma- making a bunch of decisions that has zero
visibility. Well, they make no decisions. And they're just presenting
it to the world as if it's somehow legitimate. I
can't see, if I cannot follow your, if I cannot
follow the trail of logic. that shows how you came
to a decision, your decision is completely worse. to me
it's it is a very guilty pleasure of mine because
i'm sure it's fun to watch because i've never never
been invited to these groups this is the first one
i was actually invited to there may have been a
slack group at some point that todd cochran rip that
todd cochran invited me to but you know I've lost
slack a long time ago I don't know what's going
on but WhatsApp is something I'm still in now to
me this is this is like I want to compare
this to the secret group, to the... Uh, to the...
Topic being discussed of HTTP signing, which we'll talk about
later. In public, in the GitHub. Discussions. And you can
see everybody's point of view and everyone is arguing for
their side, everyone and presenting their arguments. It is a
completely transparent. Above board. Open participation discussion. Yeah, I can't
handle those. I can't handle those. If the goal of
the AMP folks was to, and again, it's hard as
a tech person to not hear AMP and then hear
Google's, I don't know, Dave, if you remember AMP's sort
of... Oh, I spent a lot of time making support
for AMP back in the Freedom Controller and on different
websites, and then Google rug pulled it. No, it's not
a thing. But if the goal was to get everyone
talking about it, I think they've succeeded, right? Everyone knows
who Oxford Road is now. Everyone knows. the their definitions
and honestly i think that's a good starting point like
if the Apps are all trying to not coordinate. They're
competing. But if they all want to choose a common
definition, at least now they have something to work with.
And if people have a problem with it, you know,
they'll get it. I'm sure they'll hear about it. So
I don't have a huge problem with it. It's once.
It's once they come out with actual technology and actual
sort of ramifications or changes that need to happen to
the ecosystem. I don't honestly see that happening. I think
this is more of a, hey, we're getting client stats
now from Apple and from Spotify and from YouTube, and
they're completely different, and we'd like them to be similar.
That's it. Okay. Thank you. Now I need to tell
you what I've been thinking about. Because, man, I went
down a long memory road of how all things came
to be. And the first thing I want everyone in
the boardroom to understand that we have incredible, we are.
We are in fact, we are meek. You know how
the meek will inherit the earth? We're meek in the
way that's not weak. We're meek in a way that
we have power that we kind of keep under the
hood. You know, like you've got. You got a V8.
You got a huge blower that you don't see, but
then when you step on that thing, it just... This
is what this group is, and I will remind everybody.
That when we were told, Apple will never do this,
Apple will never do that. What happened? Apple did transcripts.
Chapters became a thing. The funding tag, person tag, location
tag. I know we're on the fringe, but still. We
have incredible power just by doing what we do and
not writing blogs about it and announcing stuff and meeting
in secret. This is the most non-secretive group we've ever
had. And we don't give ourselves credit for it. I
just need to preface this by saying I have been
in the advertising business for a long time. I've been
out of it for a long time, but I've been
in radio, television, web. podcasting. I built a company. I
took it public way too early. Didn't get rich off
of it. Did okay. We had $450 million in revenue.
I built. big websites for Reebok, for Budweiser, for Continental
Airlines, for tampons, tampax actually, the website you'll visit more
than once a month. I did all of these things.
I've been on the buy side. I've been on the
sell side. At MTV, I brought Budweiser onto the channel,
which... make no mistake, was spring break was not because
we thought it would be cool to do spring break.
No, Budweiser. We said, Budweiser, everyone's drinking beer there. We'll
make sure it's Budweiser. We'll put big bottles on the
stage and you'll be that and bring that stupid dog.
We'll do the Bud Light thing with Spuds McKenzie. I've
done all of that. What I'm going to propose here
will piss everybody off except for the advertisers. And will
actually have a huge benefit for podcasters. I'm loosely calling
it... PCDC. The Podcast Data Collective. Is it a secret?
It's not a secret. Okay. And the reason why I'm
happening, collective. I'm just, it's a collective. We're a collective.
We're, you know, what is podcasting 2.0? It's a bunch
of misfits. You know, we have, we do band every
week. Someone shows up with a banjo. We got a
guy playing spoons, a washboard. We got five drummers, you
know. We got 18 bass players and one guy shredding.
We're a very weird group. statistically, the relevance of the
podcast app developers, and this is a crazy situation in
all media. It has always been. the radio station, the
TV station, the website. Who? get the advertising. They get
a piece of the advertising and whether they share that
with content producers or not is irrelevant. It's always gone
through the transmission stations. Now, in podcasting, that turned out
a little bit differently. The hosting companies... who by the
way are the ones actually making money. who do not
support directly any podcast apps. The podcast apps, it's very
much like Dave and Adam. We've been doing this for
six years. Haven't put a penny in my pocket. Love
doing it. Love doing it for podcasting. feel that it's
important as a contribution to the world, and we get
enough value for value in so we can keep it
going. I don't think there's many app developers, keeping Marco
aside, who are really living off of any of this
stuff. So there's a discrepancy and a break in the
system. And where last week I said you need to
cut us in on the advertising, revenue, I've changed my
thinking. Statistically, the independent app ecosystem, and John, you'll have
to jump in, is probably about, I think we can
claim 8% to 10% of overall listening apps. Is that
a fair number? Uhhhh... yeah that's a good ballpark so
i'm just going to keep it at 10 to keep
it simple When you have a 10% number in advertising,
statistically, that is more than enough to make very... informed
decisions about your advertising money. If The data collective, if
we collectively, just like we did with transcripts, just like
we did with chapters, if we all start supporting. An
aggregation of follows, plays per episode, and completion rate by
time. and we publish those. per podcast. I mean, initially
maybe a top 10 or whatever it is, but we
make these numbers available. So anybody can, any advertiser can
go to podcastindex.org. And I'm saying it should be us
because I'm pretty sure people trust us. the app developers.
I know they trust Dave. They can trust me. far
as they can throw me probably but my track record
shows I haven't screwed anybody in business If we publish
these, these would be real numbers. So you can actually
see. Who, if you look at a podcast and go,
well, how about this episode? Well, here's how many people
listen to it by pressing play. Here's... how far the
percentage of people who made it all the way through
or listen to where your ad placement was or whatever
reason, it can be many reasons to want to know
how long somebody listened. If we publish that, initially publish
it. and make that available, we will become the de
facto... We will become... The source of truth. Matthew 5,
6 came up for me today. Blessed are they which
do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be
filled. I believe in this. I believe that if we
publish these numbers from the independent apps at 10% of
the ecosystem, that at a certain point, we... collectively can
monetize that data. Not by selling ads, but the first
customers probably should be the hosting companies. Okay, hosting company,
you want to give real stats from 10% of the
entire ecosystem, which you can extrapolate to 100%, to your
customers. Here you go. Data brokers, you want to sell
this to the advertisers, to the buying companies, whatever. Now
you got to pay for that. And then we divide
that as a collective amongst ourselves, prorated perhaps. I haven't
even thought about that. But just the opportunity. to stick
up a big middle finger to all of these secret
groups and podcast industry and IAB and all this nonsense
that we've known for so long, let's be able to
give podcasters at least an actual number. of what is
really happening with their podcast. We will be hated for
this. Because it's going to ruin a lot of people's
days when they find out that the numbers aren't what
they've been telling the advertisers for 20 years. But over
time, it will make the industry honest. It will have
real metrics so everybody can participate. We have a... We
have a checks and balances with op3.dev with livewire because
obviously so many plays how many downloads i mean we
have everything we need to provide the real numbers for
podcasters Not advertisers, not networks, podcasters. who then can decide
what they want to do with their show, have real,
and they should pay for it too, by the way.
Because this is coming from us. It's time to get
paid and time to deliver something of real value, which
I believe we can do as a collective. My first
take is that data is valuable and I'm all for
getting that data out there. That would be... Great. Uh...
I think that handles... the half of what the amp
group was talking about and that is like plays uh
how how long you know how many people and how
many how long they got in the episodes. I don't
think that handles the exposure aspect of things. And that's
the, why not? Was this ad particularly listened to? Why
not? But that could be, well, because they do dynamic,
they do dynamic ads, right? And unless this would, you
know, not everyone gets the same ad. So just because
in aggregate. You have the histogram of how many things
were played. If the same ad isn't in each episode,
it doesn't. I'm with you. So those are deep. But
that's not a huge deal. I think even plays, I'm
with you on that, that that would be such an
eye-opening thing. Let me tell you where this came from.
With Godcaster, and by the way, I think we should
be the first app to... to join the collective. With
Godcaster, we've had stats for our stations and for our
ministry partners, this is what you call a customer in
Christian business, a partner. We've had play, share, engagement, et
cetera. Recently, we started doing stats from our app with,
what is that program called? Apollo Base? What is it
called, Dave? Apptibase. Apptibase. And the stuff that we get
out of that is fascinating. and the the paths that
people take and and anybody can put this into their
app Now we're starting to do. you know, just to
see how long people are actually listening. So the day
I totally agree with you. There's some, there's some. with
dynamically inserted ads, which by the way is remnant crap
inventory anyway, but okay, maybe we can actually get those
out of the business. by creating something that's very valuable.
You know, even now you can track in-host reads, how
many people actually listen to it. We have so much
power. With just 10% of the listening apps out there.
That's the point I'm trying to drive home. Yeah, absolutely.
Would you be willing to... prepay apps to do it,
right? The pool will be very small, I would assume,
to start out. Would you be willing to kind of
seed that with, because apps are going to need a
little bit of incentive to do this. What they're sitting
on is actually very valuable. So the question would be.
Before we start to see the pennies. coming in, it
would be nice to have... uh some dollars there uh
and some significant dollars right away to do the first
uh the first lift well i said i think The
way I envision this... is we first have to prove
that we have the data. and that the data is
valuable. And it's a rug pull, basically. The rug pull
is... Just like we're publishing all kinds of other stats.
Here's, you know, here's some real top 10 lists. Here's
some real data. Maybe something you can query per pot.
Anything just to prime the pump and show the advertisers.
or anybody who's interested in this data, there's so many
different reasons people want to know about this type of
information. I think we need to prime the pump. And
then we pull the rug and say, okay, now you
have to pay for it. I don't... I want to
share with everybody because if... If someone's going to front
the money, then that person's going to be the guy
who controls everything and runs all the money. And I
don't really want to be that guy. I would prefer
that if we can get enough people interested with a
couple API endpoints, you know, I'm not sure exactly how
to do it technically. For example, how would... Why would
Pocket Cast do this? They would be a good first
target for this. I don't think Overcast would be a
good first target for this. Between those two, that's a
huge chunk of that 10%. Yeah, but I'm not looking
at it that way. That's not how we started with...
Pod friend, you know, then we went to pod verse.
It took, it took. those guys a long time. I'm
not going to start with them. I want the idea
of providing a good example. So, you know, instead of
a secret room, what if we, you know, get together
and figure out a way to represent this so that
people can look at it. People like to copy, right?
People like to copy something that's working. So yeah, I
love the idea of... a few Intrepid apps putting this
out there and then showing, we could even use, start
with their definitions, right? Start with the AMP definitions there.
And then seeing what's possible. And then it's more of
a, it gets the ball rolling a bit. And in
fact, at this point, if we can do this, we
can actually give you the definition of... podcast. And the
definition of a podcast becomes syndicated delivery of media files
with precise consumption data for all stakeholders. Now that's a
podcast. That's aiming high. But why not? Again, we were
told. for over a decade, we couldn't do anything, nothing
would work, you know, we can't change anything. It's not
true. It's bullcrap. When we really started to do it,
and we just did it by doing it, you know,
by writing code and by publishing information. People followed and
then it's true You need the apps to get it.
To have some sort of incentive to do it. But
the apps have this information, and if they do it,
then you basically have what you need. It's just, there's
really, if you look at it as a system, they
really don't have the incentive right now to do it.
So you've got to sell everyone one by one. That's
the way this always works. It's always gone. It's always
been that way. It's always been about my... That's what
I've tried to explain in the past. It's not enough
to write a standard or to code something. You have
to convince people to use it. And that requires forming
relationships, talking to people in the open. Actually, one thing
it requires... that is impossible to short circuit. It's impossible
to take a shortcut to. is time. It takes time
to prove to people that you're serious and that you're
also not going anywhere. Like, just staying power. has an
effect on other people that they become comfortable that you
are not just somebody who's going to pop up, have
a proposal and disappear. And the value is in the
data. And once we have the data and we have
enough of it, then we just say, okay, now you
can buy this data from us. And then we all
get a piece of that money. And if we feel
like it's not enough, we'll say, okay, we need to
raise the price. I'm sorry, we're not getting enough out
of this. And the customers are obvious. hosting companies right
off the bat. And they can take their aggregated hosting
company data, their download data, compare it to our play
data. And they can sell that to the ad. So
we don't want to be in the ad business. We
want to be in the data business, which is what
we're in. All we do is data about podcasts, about
metadata, about where stuff lives, where it's at. And now
we have this wonderful opportunity. That everybody has this. And
I'm just asking. for a few things, a few basics,
and we could always build it from there. It sounds
like you're describing, I want to make sure that I'm
clear. is sort of a co-op. A collective, yes, a
co-op, yep. Okay, where... Where all that first. where all
the apps, the listening apps, and open source platforms, we
all get together. and essentially aggregate our data we aggregate
our data in a in a way that fits what
groups like this amp. you know, we're giving them more.
We're giving them much more. This 30 seconds of play
is bullshit. Oh, I agree. Yeah. No, it's baloney. But
we give them actual real stats. Yes. That really tell
the true story. And then that way the listening apps
themselves get to share in the revenue of selling this
data back to the people who want it. Yes, yes.
There's only... I think that's a fantastic idea, but the
only thing that I think throws a wrench into the
whole thing. is the fact that People don't really want
real data. Well, no. See, they want fake data. No,
no, no, no. Because the fake data is always bigger.
No, no, no, no. People, let's define people. As I
said. Advertisers, they don't want to know that their stuff
isn't working. No, no. Advertisers really want to know. Ad
networks don't want to know. People selling ads don't want
to know. But who are the advertisers, though? See, that's
the thing, is the advertisers. are not the company writ
large as a blog. I'm going... I'm going back to
my experience. Advertisers want the right information. What they always
say in advertising is half of my money is working.
I just don't know which half. advertisers, the companies, the
actual mainly fast-moving consumer goods companies. Package good companies, they
want to know. if it's working. And what they will
find out is, wow, we've been overspending a lot. We
will be hated, which is kind of a position I
like. I said that. We will be hated by a
lot of people, but it will be the truth. It
will be the truth. People buying this from the collective.
Buying this data from the collective would be the advertiser
directly, not the agents. No, no, no. The advertised, that's
why you have to make it public for a while.
You have to show that you have the truth and
this is the proof. That's why... The index is a
great place to do this because what are you going
to do? Sue us? Who cares? The advertisers will eventually
say, hey, these guys say the numbers are this. And
you're saying it's this. We would prefer to buy based
on this. And you know what might actually happen? The
CPMs might actually go up. Because there will be less
inventory with more people fighting for it. That's interesting. Yeah,
I didn't think about it in those terms. And this
is why these groups in secret are like, well, we
have to have these metrics, but man, we can't let
everybody. really know that it's all bogus so let's make
a play 30 seconds that's why they do that exactly
that's why they do that and that's why seeing the
discussion in the open instead of in secret is super
important because if you saw the discussion as it was
playing out you would realize that it that that's what
the thinking was The thinking was we can't actually see
real playthroughs. We have to limit it to 30 seconds
so that we can actually register something instead of this
person started the podcast, started listening to the podcast, figured
out there was 12 ads in a pre-roll and just
stopped. And this is why I'm so happy that John
is on this show. Because he has done the work
out of the goodness of his heart and got some
value for value help, but he's really doing it because,
I don't know, it's cold on the farm. And op3.dev
is a fantastic, fantastic resource because now we have even
more data. to say, well, Here's what we're seeing in
the listening apps. Our 10%, it's just 10%, actually, on
no agenda, it's a bigger percentage because I've promoted them.
It's 10% versus what we're seeing on download. So now
you advertiser can talk to your agency. Dan Granger may
have to downsize his office. I don't know. But we're
going to get to the truth, and it will be
the most truthful. Honest. delivery system of all media, because
all measurement of all media is a lie. It's just
a lie everybody agreed on. But when we get down
to this real truth and it's the true data, what
was the promise of the internet, when everyone saw it,
well, you know, these numbers don't go up the way
we told people they would, so they came up with
stuff and we agreed on it and we formed associations
and we say, yeah, this is how you do it.
Now we can show people the truth and that, that
will define what a podcast is. This is a big
idea. I can drop my mic. It's good. I really
like the idea of comparing to legacy RSS downloads. By
the way, this is how they refer to downloads as
legacy RSS. So that's how I'm going to refer to
them from now on. But you're always going to need
them because, like you said, Adam, it's useful to compare
that to the actual listens, right? Because then everyone can
start doing the math themselves. Yes. And like you said,
they are looking for, again, taking them at. at face
value they're looking for Accuracy right there looking for and
this is why DraftKings and better help on the team
Exactly want to know if I put a dollar in
what am I getting for that? And I don't I
don't see that that's necessarily a dangerous or corrosive sort
of incentive there and not we earrings and if we're
able to give them a better answer than other mediums
and I do agree Adam that that data is there
it's in fact it's already being collected yeah it's just
not being sent or centralized or in a central clearinghouse
at the moment and it could be really valuable and
Apple will never give it to a Spotify will never
give it to us YouTube will never give it to
us but we don't really need it That's the beauty.
We have the 10%. You got 10%? I can extrapolate.
Thank you. I can do math. I got a spreadsheet.
I know kind of what it is. Now, it gets
super interesting down the road, and maybe some apps will
follow Apple's cue and say, well, we have, like Fountain,
we have this type of. person using our listening app
and we feel that they are very valuable and there's
something we want to do with the data that we
have independently. But that only happens once everyone has seen
the aggregate and understands, wow, wait a minute, this is
the real stuff. But that data... and I'm saying it
up front, rug pull. We're going to show this data.
I'm saying it. This is the first ever announced rug
pull. We are pre-announcing the rug pull. We're going to
give it to you for free for X amount of
time and then we're going to say, okay, now you
like it? Do you like it, little girl? Do you
like the lollipop? Now we're going to take it away
from you. Now you're going to pay for it because
app developers need to get paid. Podcast Index needs to
get paid. John Spurlock's op3.dev needs to get paid. And
I want to see Daniel J. Lewis get paid. Now,
everybody, we have so many people in our ecosystem with
so much power, and we've been so successful on the
fringe. with chapters and transcripts, etc. that now it's time.
And this was the big revelation. I've just been bouncing
around all week trying to figure out where does it
break? The only way it breaks is if we don't
do it. But if we do it, and the technical
implementation is what will make it, Dave, you know, whether
it's an... I don't know, maybe... Do you hit an
endpoint when someone hits play? Maybe you upload a CSV
file. I don't know what the answers are, but follow
numbers, play numbers, and duration of listening. Those are the
three big ones. At an episode level, we will have
created... a true medium called podcasting. audio or video or
PDFs for all I care, it doesn't matter, but we
will be able to drive the industry instead of a
bunch of people sitting inside of secret locations or in
offices or in trade associations. That's not what podcasting has
ever been. It's never been that way. Sam Sethi's always...
already done it before we've ended this episode. So any
spec that we develop is going to be applied to
everyone else. So that's probably the difficult part that is
going to require a lot of input from... from everybody
in the community is how How you do this. Here's
always the difficult part. is Making. something like this. not
burdensome on the app itself because that's a lot of
data and a lot of traffic. Well, we've been watching
it in real time. time with what Paul has been
doing. Yeah, it's like I know that people I know
that these apps will be willing to share because they
already have I just simply have started asking people Hey,
can you give me the follower counts for all the
podcasts in your database? I just want... feed URLs and
how many people follow that. And Mitch gave it to
me and Sam and all the people are just like,
yeah, sure. Here you go. Right. I know they're willing
to share, but in order to have it be, be
like an actual pipeline. or a workflow that doesn't put
a lot on them. That's why the pod sage is
here. You're going to go back and you're going to
think about it. You're going to go camping and you're
like, yeah, I got an idea now. I know how
to do it. Yes, of course. This is why you're
the pod sage. And by the way, I am so
grateful to hosting companies who've supported Podcast Index. I don't
want to sound like, hey, thanks for supporting us. Now
we're going to... charge you, but we are. You know?
This, no, I... I suggest a two-stage rug pull. First,
don't rug pull, then rug pull. No, you do what
Nathan says. You say free during beta, then you rug
pull that. But then the second rug... pull is one
time payment lifetime subscription then a year later you say
oh yeah we don't mean that you have to pay
every month I just want to do all the things
that have all the dark patterns people do to everybody
else we should do all that data surcharge yeah data
surcharge fee a bandwidth fee Dave, you probably don't remember
podcast events, do you? It was a proposal I put
together a long time ago. I do. Yeah, I remember
that. I was about to mention it earlier on when
we were talking. It was actually... Pretty much meant to
kind of address this exact problem. It's like, how do
we do it? But that was more in a decentralized
way. That was assuming that apps... would be sharing it
for the benefit of podcasters, not the benefit of... Apps!
Advertising and apps. So it's like, there's nothing that would
prevent you all from sending that to a centralized, let's
call it a clearinghouse sort of endpoint, not... every single
podcast host. So that could be something that could be
off the shelf. pretty much used to do this. My
big allergic reaction, I think, to this is this whole
centralization aspect. And that kind of goes to the signing
as well. It's like as soon as we start really
sort of integrating existing apps and hosts. I tend to
see that as a bad thing. in general and this
would be a massive like out amping amp like we're
all working together it's a super amp yeah giga amp
my first thought but my first thought on how to
do this and and hot takes are usually terrible but
my first thought on how to do this was simply
to make it decentralized. Okay, well, let me just say
it. Let me lay it out this way. Centralization is
okay as long as it comes after the fact. And
what I mean by that is like... think about pod
ping. Podping is decentralized, but you have websites like tiles.podping.org
that then recentralize the data back into a feed or
a stream or some sort of... product. And all of
that. And I mean, it's essentially what podcasting does. Podcasting
is decentralized, but then you have these listening apps that
are. they aggregate the decentralized data back into a single
point of contact. So that is fine. And the first
thing that popped into my head on how to do
that was. Why not broadcast it over Podbean? We define
a standard of how the stats are to be laid
out. Let's just... for the sake of discussion, let's say
that it was something as simple as just a flat
comma delimited. CSV file. Okay. I'm not proposing that. I'm
just saying let's just keep that in your head as
the thing. the format we might, we could work with.
as long as we specify the columns and the exact
data that the way it's supposed to be laid out
apps themselves. could produce a file that fits that spec.
And then they could just simply pod ping out from
time to time. Once an hour. Once a day. Who
knows, they could pod ping... out a URL where that
data is publicly downloadable. Here's the only problem I have
with that. But then everybody would just grab it and
we couldn't charge for it. Exactly. This, so I'm going
against everything that I've ever stood. for really in podcasting.
However, I'm doing it. to advanced podcasting. And what do
I mean by that? Oh, I love when I do
that. Well, I should have said, why? Here's why. Yes,
yes. Please question yourself. There's already a huge amount of
trust in Podcast Index. There's entire businesses. that depend on
Podcast Index being around. several apps could not live without
it. So there's a trust. And I think we've earned
that trust and we deserve that trust. Everything around us,
all the things we complain about involve... money. Now. I'm
not interested in advertising. I am interested in not just...
helping the apps that have been frankly struggling. for years
or decades just to kind of keep the new version
going, update with the apps. store, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera. Oh, now I need a server. but also
to Have the ecosystem grow with more apps. Because, hey.
I can actually participate in the data collective. And all
right, I'm a small app, so maybe I get $5
a month or $5 a week or whatever it is.
But now there's your incentive. There has to be an
incentive and it has to be financial. And we will
outstrip the demand, outstrip the, look at, Apple is already
30% of my listeners use Apple. That's a lot less
than it was. Now, the other 30% is probably Spotify,
but I have 7%. the Podverse. I've got 3 or
4% fountain. So this is an ecosystem that will grow,
but we're not getting into the ad business. Lots of
people want to know how their podcast is doing. Just
how's my podcast doing? We got this many downloads. What
does that mean? Well, now the hosting company can say
for, you know, they charge 20 bucks. So maybe they
have to pay 50 cents or 25 cents a user
into the collective. This is exactly what's going on. This
is exactly what's happening with your podcast. You see. It
starts to benefit everybody. Why the sigh? Because... It's not
the tech of this that... that makes me nervous it's
the administrative overhead of having to like accept money and
then make payouts to people and all that kind of
stuff. But we have an intern. No, but wait, but
wait, but wait. That's why we have the rug pull
timeline. We have plenty of time. First, we're not there
yet. The first thing we have to do is prove
that we have the data. and that that data is
valuable. That comes from publishing that data continuously, it being
a thing, people going to look at it, podcasters saying,
well, here's what I'm seeing, here's what I've got. Once
we have that, we may decide at the end of
the road, we're going to do something else. We all
want a chocolate bar. I don't care. But we have
to show... The so-called industry that we, as a collective,
we have the true data, and you're full of shit.
And this is the real stuff. So stop meeting in
secret. This is what podcasting is. And a podcast is...
A syndicated... I had that line written down. Syndicated delivery
of media files with precise consumption data for all stakeholders.
Everything else is not a podcast because here's your proof.
These are podcasts. Can be video, can be HLS video,
can be downloads. I don't care what it is. Is
there going to be a rug pull countdown timer on
the website? Yes, definitely. On Times Square. On the big
board. Like the debt clock, yes. On the Flatiron building.
If we do that, if we do part A... Part
B will come naturally. And so I'm not worried about
that part at all. And once we've all figured it
out, and there may be five other ideas of what
to do with this data, but at least it'll be
this group. My... My... -Alice, not a fear. -Cause we're
all gonna get... stomped out and rubbed out. By the
heel. of the podcast industrial complex over time if we
don't do something like this. MUTT expectation If this is
truly successful. And this data is published. for all to
see and the extrapolations are made. expectation is that People
would immediately see... how much the advertising narrative. is built
on just complete fabrication. - Absolutely. and the numbers will
expose. that very clearly. I disagree with that. Only because
they're seeing this today, Dave. So the stats you get
from Apple are incredibly detailed. And the stuff, I don't
know if you've seen a bumper dashboard and that sort
of thing. There's companies that will scrape. for a particular
show that like go out to Apple, they'll go out
to Spotify, they'll go out to YouTube and they will
present it all. So they're actually seeing this today, that
bad news or whatever you want to call it. And
there's, you know, this is basically Mr. Meister's job is
to kind of. educate people as to this. So I
don't think it would be much of a shock. And
I think, again, I think they would love this information.
I think they would love more of it. And we
could be a good, this is a big idea, but
I think. It could serve as an example. And just
like with the namespace. The shape of the data, I
think, is probably the number one thing. Like, what are
we capturing and what... what do we think is valuable
and what is valuable not only to the apps, but
it's really like what is valuable to the stakeholders? And
I think a lot of this would be to talk
to folks. in the game, right? In the advertising game
and say like, would this be useful if we did
this? And that's part of the open discussion, I think,
that you'd have to talk about. We need Dan Granger
on this show, which I'm sure. Yeah, run it by
Dan. I'm sure he'll come on, Dave. Yeah, I'll holler
at him. But to finally be able to define what
a podcast is. You know, we just added a little
bit to it. But we define it, not these other
guys. Personally, I think the podcast definition is a little
overreach. I don't think you have to send stuff to
podcastindex.org to be called a podcast. I'm not saying that.
I think holding up podcasting as a great way, podcasting
the term being known as a great way to get
accurate. stats on how things are just like kind of
digital is, I think that would be great. That's, and
it's sort of like, it's turning the weakness that a
lot of folks see in podcasting right now, which is
the coordination and the chaos of it into an advantage.
It kind of like flips the narrative. Here's the great
thing, John. It's not exclusive to us. If someone comes
along and they have a better way of doing stuff
with that data. then all the apps can send that
data to them. Yeah, totally. And Apple could just look
and kind of what they do, they pay attention to
all this stuff. They just don't contribute. And if they
see, hey, this is working. Uh, you know, who knows?
They might. participate in as well or participate in something
similar and that's this is why the shape of the
data is probably the most important thing. So it's not
exclusive to us, but I think it would move pod.
I'm, I'm passionate about podcasting and it, and I'm passionate
about it being on RSS, but I specifically say in
my definition, Cindy. Delivery so it could be something else.
I hope it never is but it could be and
it doesn't have to be us aggregating it I'd like
it to be. But it doesn't have to be if
we do a better job. I mean, it's still like
podcast index itself. We have to go to the GitHub,
go build your own. Go ahead. I think everything is
open source at this point. point go build your own
they're just today looking at uh dave's code yeah go
ahead go go build your own podcast index and some
people don't want to do that But I think it
is the perfect time. When I see these types of
groups, and they got the advertising in there, and DraftKings.
and better help they spend a lot of money and
so they they want they want to know what they're
spending their money on. That's why they're in there. And
so if we say, hey, here's the real numbers. I
think we'll be loved by advertisers, but we'll also be
loved by speaking bureaus and people who just... want exposure
for their book or whatever it is. And then if
you want, hey, break it down by app. Hey, it
turns out I've got a huge following on Podverse. Let
me go talk to Mitch over there. And what can
I do, Mitch? Can we do some business here? We
started out with podcasting. I happen to have been there.
When it was this. Hey, man, it's all open. We
all love each other. And we got fucked. I'm sorry.
That just slipped out. We really did. Everybody made money
around us. Man, I was going to come in here
and be optimistic. I think podcasting is like rocking it
right now. We have a video solution that works great.
Everything's still in the open. is amazing. It is. Podcast
technology is rocking because there's people that care. I'm super
positive. In fact, I'm amped. I'm amped up. Because this
is an opportunity that I see this like, wow, this
is once in a lifetime. We've proven that we can
do stuff. We've proven we can move mountains. We can
change the big boys by just doing it. So why
don't we do it? That's my pitch. I'm gonna- From
Spurlock, I take that as a huge compliment. Very big
idea. I love big ideas. Yeah. Thank you. I mean,
is there enough energy to even talk about HTTP signing
requests anymore? I'm exhausted. PCDC? We got to work on
the name, though. Well, yeah. That's a small thing. Yeah,
yeah. I didn't have time for acronyms. I just liked...
Podcast Plus. Podcast Plus. data collective plus plus two pluses
So... Yeah, I'm kind of wiped out too. But if
you want to talk about anything else, I'm good. I
basically just spewed my, I blew my wad that I've
been holding up for an entire week. I literally have
no energy for HTTP signing discussion at this point. It's
a bad idea. Let's not do it. That clearly seems
to be the sentiment. I was actually interested to see
that, uh... Mr. Overcast sort of. Not only made one
very long contribution, but two. And this is not something
that normally happens. So I think we might have hit
a nerve there. What contributions? Just to the discussion, yeah.
Yeah, to the open discussion. Well, I mean, so I
guess I'll... I guess. I thought there were a month.
Where do I start? I think... What? Here's my concern.
Let me just try to... Throw dirt on my idea.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, this is
on the HTTP signing. It's topic shift. Oh, okay, okay.
I think Did the issue. A-A rose. from a very...
I know how it arose because I talked to Tom.
about it. The desire for better identification for download agents.
head. origin in HLS video because abuse of HLS video
Those data sizes is extremely expensive. Now does Buzzsprout have
any HLS video out there at the moment? Yeah, they
do. Yeah, they support each other. Not in fees, though.
Well, I don't know. I mean, they're supporting Apple spec.
but um but they are definitely serving HLS video. Right,
but it's not in Fiji. I think the – No,
it's getting abused. It's getting abused because people are scraping
the HLS stream out of the podcast.apple.com website. And you
are even only using the private API. For distribution, it's
already getting abused. And that's the concern. And so here,
let me just lay out my... what seems like a
devil's advocate argument at this point because what i What
I want to do is not... care about HTTP signing.
I don't want to have, I mean, like... That's not
the- the thing I want to be, like the hill
I want to die on. Well, he titled it well.
It's more client identification, right? Like, do we want to
add stronger client identification to podcasting? But I see their
concerns, and I think they are identifying. problem. that's going
to become A big problem. In HTTP signing, may not
be what everybody wants to do. And that's fine. I'm
completely fine with whatever the group decides. That's why we
discuss things in the open. But... Video downloads are large,
expensive things. And it's just different than audio. The... People
Abuse? I agree it's important for that very reason, by
the way. And I want to talk about this only
as it involves HLS. I want to like. I don't
think anybody has ever proposed that audio be part of
this traditional MP3 downloaded audio podcasts. But so if we're
talking about only HLS video. Then I don't see- there
having to be any sort of secret meeting or like
Zoom call in order to get your data trusted. To
me, what this is, is. If you send a request
for HLS Media, To RCDN. We would require you to
sign the request. than if at some point in the
future we determine that you are an abusive bot. we
will stop respecting your requests. But it would not be
blocked and then you have to contact us to get
access. It would be everyone immediately has access. That's by
default. it would default open. And then it would only
close access when there was an abuse that happened. To
me, that's how I understood his proposal. And like... That
seemed reasonable to me. Tell me how that's not reasonable.
So I thought, I actually, I thought you were going
to have Tom on the show. I thought that would
have been great. But, um... I think it is reasonable.
And in fact, it would make my life a lot
easier as well. I spend... Probably way more time than
I should have. should spend every day. battling the same
sort of thing with OP3. Now I don't block requests.
But I do make sure that requests that say they're
from Overcast, but then are hammering the site a thousand
times, I have to exclude those, right? And it's always
a new sort of challenge every day. out there. There's
new bots, there's new things pretending to be other things
because the user agent HTTP is not should never have
been and is not a good reliable signal of who's
calling, right, in HTTP. In HTTP, you do that with
the authorization header. You don't do that with the user
agent header. But the question comes in like, do we
want to introduce... Should we filter? Podcast media now. So
we're not talking about client stats, but the media that
has always been open in podcast feeds. Do we now
want to... add an additional layer of who are we
going to send this media versus what are they doing.
And I think Buzzsprout does this today. and all these
other companies, what they do today is they look at
requests coming in, right? And they make their application level
firewalls. more complex over time. And to me, there's no,
it is for audio today because it's actually similar. to
video. In fact, the way it HLS works. HLS is
not one massive file, right? It's like six different encodings,
but six second chunks. So with HLS, it's actually far
easier to filter on the server side and detect abuse
quicker. I actually happen to, I've been working with some
folks and I'm actually working on an OP3 integration with
HLS. You can see a lot more, but some of
the patterns are still exactly the same, right? There are
a lot of auto downloads, especially in audio, right? So
those look like someone's just ripping through the video, so
you can't really trap those. And then the videos that
are kind of live are human scale, right? So you
can see. six seconds chunks requested about every six seconds.
Those are easy. It's really, we're talking about a subset
of a subset of requests that are, give me all
the variants, right? Over and over and over and over.
And you know how long it takes to rack up
a appreciable bandwidth bill? off of several six second chunks,
it's a long time. So to me, it's more of
an abstraction breakage. I don't think we should be in
the business of filtering. Like if a podcast is putting
data out to the media, out to the world. To
me, I don't think we should be discriminating based on
the color. And yes, that even includes bots because one
man's bot is another man's app. right so let's say
someone uses claude to create their own podcast app right
who knows what they're going to use as a user
agent who knows what they're going to have as a
back end it's really not something i think we that
would be good to go down in general and In
the short term, it would help, particularly on the server
aspect. things and the PSP is sort of mainly made
up of hosting companies. This is why I would love
Marco to kind of like participate in that a little
bit more. I think they'd love to have him, but
that would create some balance in the force. But no
one's really speaking up for the app side of things
and the innovation side on the client aspect of things.
I think it's dangerous. to sort of... view every media
fetch, yes, including video, as something that can only happen
between known entities. And let's be clear, like this would
be used to filter requests, right? Whether to slow them
down or whether to block them. And I do have
a bit of information as for my position, like looking
at all the podcasts that are released in the world
or whatever. There is a list of podcast companies that
block more than others, right? And try to do this
more aggressively than others. um and buzzprout is at the
top of that list right so they block more aggressively
than any other company. So when I saw that Tom
was involved with this, I wasn't necessarily that surprised. I
think number two... would be red circle. And then there's
like a huge drop off. Like basically no one blocks
media requests. And to me, that's a good thing. I
don't know if you saw part of Marco's comment was
he. Basically, Marco gets blamed when things get blocked, right?
Of course. So BuzzFrost never blocked. This is an app
problem, right? And to me, I think we should basically
do as much work as possible to make app lives
easier because that's where really the current problem that we
have in podcasting is. I think the... Having to do
more work, having to do more work, for John having
to do more work for Tom is a price I
think we need to pay in smart kind of server
filtering instead of adding more integration between who's calling and
the media itself. What do you mean by smart? That's
my basic argument. What do you mean by smart server
filtering? So every, uh... every company now when requests come
in right they can they get the logs right so
old school is you look at the logs after the
fact and then every day they go in and tweak
either by ip or by user agent and ip right
so this is used to be a very slow process
and now basically think of it as this process is
speeding up so that it can almost happen. during the
day, right? So they see something happening right now, they
can quickly turn that one off or slow it down.
And if it were me, I would kind of like
slow these requests down, right? Because that's one thing to...
uh sort of make sure that this is so if
someone sits there and hits download on a movie and
it takes an appreciable amount of time to download. That's
fine for a human. But that would really squash any
sort of dumb transcription bot that's just kind of doing
things over and over. Also, transcription bots are not going
to read movies, but... You're saying tar pitting instead of
blocking. I wouldn't even, if tarpitting means slow down, yeah,
I wouldn't. necessarily serve weird videos for abuse. I would
actually just slow it down so that it's human scale
in the worst, right? If we do determine that this
looks like... something that's abusive. And yes, honestly, I know
that that's difficult, but maybe we could come up with
common server libraries or even third-party services. You know, something
like an HLS shield, right? Where if you don't want
to do this work yourself... You can just put something
in front of it and that will do the work
for you. So are you saying that... Go ahead. No,
sorry. Go ahead. Are you saying that? Are you saying
that you advocate for a hosting company? to never block
any media download for any reason i think yes i
think that is something that podcasting has been for 20
years and i think that's a dark road to go
down that we should block requests that we don't. We
should be innovating in how to serve media as much
as possible to everyone. I don't think, unless it's obviously
an abuse and that can be Detected by use, not
by caller. I think we should try as hard as
we can to serve Serve media without discrimination. Yes, including
the box. But it's not, again, I will make another
disclaimer because people tend to forget. things I'm out. I'm
giving my best attempt to argue for this. as with
everything I've got, just so that we can have the
best debate possible about whether or not to even spend
our time on something like this. It's not about... effort.
To me, it's about cost. so If somebody, and I
can tell you that this has happened. If somebody's bot
goes wild. and downloads terabytes of data. I don't see
how... We can say that a... Hosting companies should just
sit back. And just accept that and just pay that
bill when it's clearly not a person who is one
like. What the hosting company, the sort of the contract
that hosting companies have with the podcasting ecosystem is that
they're going to serve their customer, the creator. And by
doing so, they also facilitate the media delivery from the
creator to the listener. And when it's clear that the
listener is no longer part of this transaction. then there's
no more contractual obligation there to the hosting company. And
I think that this has a problem for decentralization also,
because take a company like... Take a hosting company like
Pinecast. It's a decent-sized hosting company, independent. Matt Basta. It's
an independent hosting company. He seems to do pretty well.
He's got a, I don't know how many podcasts he
delivers at this point, but it's, I don't know, a
few thousand at least. and at At the scale of
HLS abuse that I've heard of so far, I don't
think that Pinecast could even do HLS. Unless they did
it in blocking. There's a lot of fear coming into
this. It takes a very long time to download terabytes
and terabytes of HLS segments. It's happening, John. In aggregate.
I can give you the people to talk to. It
is happening. Yeah. I just think that it can be
detected and should be detected. I don't think that it's...
You can download terabytes of audio in the same way.
What does Pinecast do? Or what is some even better
argument? is what does someone like James Cridland do, right?
So he hosts his own show. Let's say he wanted
to start doing HLS. Right. That's even, you know, he,
is he going to, he probably is not going to
go and have a dynamic. HLS filter on his side.
So that's probably a, but the question is, is like,
who, like, is, can this abuse be? combated without making
the media. effectively private and that's i would hope that
we sort of exhaust we use all of our kind
of innovation that we have in the group to kind
of look at that specifically. You know, take Flycast, right?
So Flycast is a great new company, and this is
the awesome thing about podcasting, right? They just came out
of nowhere, and all of a sudden... They're the producer
of basically the highest quality HLS videos out there in
open podcasting today, right? So... They publish more variants, higher
quality variants, in more podcast episodes using alternate enclosure than
any of the existing providers. And they are somehow able
to do this. So I think it's, I don't... you
know, obviously I, I'm just one person. It's just my
opinion, but I think this should be something that. Hosting
companies are compared against each other with, right? Like how
open can we make our media? Because ultimately it's going
to come down to the apps. Someone is going to
say, I can't play this video in this app because
it's on this host. And then we get... to this
matrix of apps, servers, competitors. But why would that happen?
What you're describing is a closed ecosystem, and that's not
what this proposal is. This proposal is not for closing
the ecosystem. This proposal is for adding a verification metric.
Where you can, where if somebody spoofs your user agent,
the CDN can tell that that's not you. And they
can block the correct entity that is abusing and not
you. Like what Marco was describing. with Overcast was middlemen
that sit in between. and say something like ad blockers.
And or or lousy. Or VPNs a lot is filtered.
Or VPNs, yes. But none of that applies to HTTP
signing requests. None of those things are factors there. And
what you're saying to me already, though, is that... Buzzsprout
is already blocking and Red Circle, they're already blocking abusive
traffic. But that does not show up. in normal client
app download. We're not seeing rampant. failures of downloads. for
major podcast listening apps. from Buzzsprout and Red Circle. So
they're doing this blocking intelligently already, even with the limited
metric, even with the limited ability to do identification that
they already have. This would allow them to do it
even more intelligently. And again, only for HLS video. which
Overcast does not support video anyway, so this would not
even be part of the equation for that app. so
like i'm sure he'd like to right i'm sure if
it was there if there are videos in the feed
that he would definitely take a look at that i
don't think we should use overcast necessarily as Even though
he was very kind of like adamant on this point,
I don't think we should basically do this for him
necessarily. But I think it's sort of a dangerous, to
me, it's kind of a, you know, if you view
the abstraction line where like all the apps are on
top of the line and all the hosting companies are
below the line, it's sort of this new. kind of
the hands sneaking over back and forth and saying like,
okay, so we know this. And again, Tom's a great
guy. Like Buzzsprout is amazing company. Like it's, that's why
it's sort of, that's why, honestly, that's why I chose
to add to that particular thread. Whereas I don't, you
know, I don't necessarily love to get into all the
GitHub threads, but I think it's important. because it is
a narrowly good idea for certain players in the space,
right? Where it's like not necessarily good long-term. Like what
if Spotify said, you know, tomorrow we're coming out with
something called verified apps, right? Where... If you want to
fetch audio from Megaphone or Anchor, We're going to have
you, we're going to do a signed cryptographic thing and
then you can register with us. We're not going to
block you based off of it. But that's not the,
that was never the proposal. There was never a registration
involved. There was never any sort of coordination. It was
purely sign it. And it's like basically just like math
This request came from someone that owns this domain name,
basically, is what the public key does, or this public
key, which is more signal, right? So that's, I totally
see, and again, I can argue the other side, I
hope as good as Tom. It would help OP3, right?
Because I could say, hey, these are veris... Apple downloads
and these are non verified Apple downloads again in the
fictional world where Apple would do this um it doesn't
that well actually that's probably important if i'm someone that's
doing uh this abuse do you think it was intentional
the hls abuse that you're talking about dave or was
it unintentional Um, I think that it is... My just...
Of course, there's no way to prove any of this.
Yeah, but I think most of the abuse... just from
what I see on the index side. Most of the
abuse comes from carelessness. Right. And what user agents do
they use? Yeah, a bunch of vibe coding careless stuff.
Yes. Yes. And they're going to continue to use browser
user agents, right? Oh, time out. Is it dinner time?
I am just alerting the pod sage that we are
at 2.03 and 1.29 on the counter, so it's up
to you. I'm happy to sit here. It's my fault.
I shouldn't have gotten into this conversation. very long conversation.
I think it goes to like what podcasting almost is.
And like, if media should be always public versus not
for video and audio, but. So it's my fault. No,
it's no one's fault. Dave has a job he has
to get back to. And... I think the issue- What
do you think, Adam? You invented podcasting. Oh, what? Someone
asked me my opinion? What? I mean, should the media,
that it's always been readily available, should the media be
free for any caller, regardless if they're faking their user
agent or not? But that's not a fair characterization. I
do not care. If this proposal goes forward or if
it dies today, I really ultimately do not care because
the community gets to have its way. That's the way
this thing works. But I do deeply care about whether
or not it's fairly characterized so that we're all agreeing
that we're... either. that we're arguing for the same thing.
And it's not, and the way you described it is
not accurate. But there is no closing of the ecosystem.
It is a – what you're seeing and describing is
a – potential blocking of valid traffic in the future.
And that's not. technical thing that is a behavioral thing
that may or may not happen It's true. It may
or may not happen. I'm just curious what his thoughts
are on it. My thoughts are... I would like. I
obviously, I feel that... From the beginning, it's just been
open and free access and do whatever. Um... I... know
that video is an expensive data hog and people need
to pay for it. And that includes... Bot stuff. However,
I would personally appreciate being able to identify as something
valid and tell a company that has blocked something from
me. This is valid and this is why. Now, if
they decide to block me, okay, there's nothing I can
do about it, but they're probably going to block me
anyway. because they don't know who I am. And I've
had this very issue with stuff I've been doing for
Godcaster. And... It would be if there's a technical way
to identify and say, hey, I'm signing this request and
this is me and here's what I'm doing. And for
them to say, okay, why are you... Why is it
so much or whatever, you know, that may alert me
to something? And that would be totally something that I
could mess up And I have. I think it would
benefit... So to have. But by the same token, you
know, it's like... The problem is I use Linode instances,
they're blocked by everybody. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I
need to use Linode instance because I can't just have
everything running on my systems at home. So that's where
I'd like to be able to sign it and say,
this is me, and here's what I'm doing, and here's
why. And if there's something you're seeing that is out
of, we're all pretty, I think we're all good people
in general, certainly at that system level. Someone says, hey
man, you're downloading 50 copies of this file every minute.
Oh crap, thank you. You know, I don't see why
someone would block me just because. you know, I'm doing
something different, but if there's an abuse, hey, it's an
easy way to see who that is and how to
get in touch with me. Does that make sense? I
can see how So I just know the way I
behave with the API. Cause just like, cause like you,
John, I'm, I'm fighting bot traffic on a daily basis.
And what I... see often is I'll see traffic that
becomes abusive. suddenly there's just some new user agent that
pops up out of nowhere and just starts just hammering
everything we have. Have you seen the ones that actually
apologize in the user agent? They're like, if this is
causing you trouble, underscore, like, I'm sorry. I have no
idea. There must be some code that does this because
I see a bunch of these every day. And the
only way I know how to handle that traffic... is
to, um, is to rate limit it by hand. and
start giving them a 429 because I don't know who
this thing is. It'll be some vague user agent coming
from... you know, an Asian CDN. I have no idea
what this is. It could be just a mistake in
their code. Or they didn't read the terms of service
or who knows. And so all I know to do
is to get their attention, I have to 429 them.
And get them, and that will get their attention. Suddenly
their thing fails. And then they, they re in most
of the time. I never hear another peep from, from
it. It just, the traffic disappears and change their users.
Yeah. Well, no, but I never see the same behavior
again. It just, it just goes away. But occasionally I'll
429 somebody and I'll get an email and say, hey,
I can't access the index anymore. And I will go,
I will work with them and tell them what they
were doing. And they're like, oh, we didn't know there
was a mistake. This very thing happened with a podcast
app. It was backfilling transcripts. And I was like, no,
you can't. scrape you know every episode in the end
you can't scrape 150 million episodes I will give you
a better way let's work together because it's gonna it's
going to degrade the platform for everybody else who also
needs it and so like The... So What I see
with something like signing... is the ability for... Somebody like
a Buzzsprout or a Red Circle or somebody like that.
to identify, to go ahead and say, okay, look, this
is overcast. This is his public key. This is... Podverse's
public key. This is Fountain's public key. I know these
guys. And if they have a spike in downloads, I
can go ahead and whitelist them ahead of time so
that they never get blocked. And so that they, I
can, if I see something that. It looks like a
really strange change in... and traffic patterns, instead of blocking
them, I can reach out to them and say, hey,
here's something that's going on, just like I had to
do with Fountain. And Oscar ended up... identifying a problem
where they were getting bought abused on their end. And
that abuse was flowing through to the Podcast Index API.
And Oscar was very thankful that I gave him that
information so he could fix the problem on his end.
We've identified a lot of things like in Apple Podcasts.
There have been bugs in the past, and those show
up immediately in all these systems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's
why I wonder if the HLS thing is also a
bug. In Overcast, they continue to have... like a redownloading
bug. So you'll see a lot of the Overcast share
go up sort of artificially in the last few months,
and then people are starting to realize this. So that's
a case where you wouldn't want to block Overcast ever,
really. But it's a good way to say like, oh,
we think it's overcast. And whether it's signed or not.
I mean, you can tell an Overcast user agent, right?
And I don't think signing is necessarily required to do
this. Just so you know, John. My robot went to
go get the Pod News Weekly Review. All robots do,
they just decide to do it differently today. And it
said, oh, I got blocked. But the Overcast user agent
worked. Literally. Exactly. Came out of cloud code. And I
think actually James does a very good job. He's a
bit grumpy on this week's episode, but he does a
lot of traveling. Like, I think... he does a very
good job of laying out why this is important. And
really, it's more about stronger client identification, right? That's really
what this is. It's like, who is calling? Who's fetching
the media in this case? So that's, I think, the
strongest argument. And I do agree that the semantics of
whether it's using signing that looks... like mastodon or something
else and there's a lot of prior art here because
websites are being sort of pulled excessively by bots and
there's a similarity there. So I don't know that a
new solution isn't necessarily even needed here. We might just
want to piggyback on one of those. Whether or not,
I think it's more of a... I'm sort of not
looking at it from the technical side. I'm looking at
it, is this a good idea? And so everyone just
needs to be, hey, is this a good idea not
only for all the hosting companies, which it would be
a good idea for. But also the apps and also
the services that can't speak for themselves because they're not
listening to the podcast. They lose. Well... I know that
one of... a very valuable website to me. that I
used that was an enthusiast website for 70s model Ford
trucks. Incredible resource that had every technical diagram and detail
and owner's manuals and forums and everything. It's basically just
been completely knocked offline by AI scrapers. It finally just
bit the dust this week. It's been limping along. But
it just gets hammered all the time because they're getting
constantly crawled and ingested and they don't have the technical
expertise to be able to deal with that. And so
I know that. this new era we're in with a
because i see the same thing that that adam does
i see Claude Code. When I use it, sometimes I
see it. just morphing its user agent to impersonate other
stuff until finally something works. And so, like... I guess
I've made... I've made the best argument I can for
it. And I don't think it'll go any further than
it already has. I think this is a complete wash
and it's going to be, it's not, it's just going
to die on the vine. But it, at least we
had the discussion and, you know, we can actually make
a decision. And it may become something in the future
that we hold in. to the side and say At
some point in the future, the ecosystem becomes so threatened
by malicious traffic or impersonated traffic that we do have
to blow the dust off this thing and actually do
something. And I go back to the apps. We don't
often hear from the... larger apps right that really would
be impacted by this and if if you make it
useful for them to do and they see the value
in it, then I think that's something that we can
now say, okay, both sides agree on this. This makes
a lot of sense. Yeah, and I think you're right
about that, and that's why I was very sensitive to
making sure that we understand. that we're actually talking about
the real thing and not just talking about fears of
things. Because if we're just talking about being scared about
something that sounds like it might be a problem. I
don't think that actually... communicates the real benefit of the
thing. You know, I just want everybody to actually be
talking about the reality and not the fear. I really
need to stop this. I had a rebut to that,
but I'll stop. No, please rebut. Rebut me. Well, I
think all of this is based on fear now, right?
I think. That's fair. That's fair, by the way. And
a lot of it is, I've... I, me as a
hosting company, right? I have a model that is great,
right? I have a margin that makes me a very
good living and I can afford multiple people, right? And
like, we've figured this formula out. I pay this. much
for bandwidth and I charge my customers this. Video throws
a wrench into that. Right? And so... The question is
like, even before it happens, right? I've heard a lot,
even before a lot of people had their implementations, I've
heard a lot of people saying, oh, we can't, you
know, this is, it's very interesting. What will other people
do? What can we afford to do? And that sort
of thing. So I think a lot of, and again,
there's companies that do not filter today, right? In fact,
no one really does. And I just think we should
be in the position of always saying, like, let's get
this out there as open as possible and not and
wait to see what happens. Right. Wait to see actual
abuse coming in. from crawlers. I doubt there are crawlers
that even parse HLS, right? There's very few. And whether
they know to go to the podcast feed, go to
the alternate enclosure, and then download. something that would even
be noticeable, right? Which again, we're talking about the video
segments. I'm not sure that that's the case, right? And
I'd be willing to let's get the data that we
have out in the open. and know what we're tackling
instead of kind of the fear of something that yes
videos are a lot larger But let's take a look
at what's actually happening before we start to make any
decisions. And again, that goes to fear. Yeah, I think
that's very fair. I'm a fear Dave's going to be
late to his day job. Oh, sorry, Dave. I'm very
afeard of this. Okay. No, I think, I think that's
a good way to end it, John. And, and maybe
the best way to move forward. If somebody, if, if
the hosting companies really think this is, is something valuable
is for them to put out some data, some numbers
that, that detail the abuse so that we can all.
sort of appreciate the scale and then make appropriate decisions.
I think that's a good way to end it. Yep.
Okay, do we have time to thank some people, Dave?
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. What is this? Is this a...
Free Friday for you? Yeah, I don't have to go
back to the office. Oh, oh. Okay, if I'd known
that, I would have let you yammer on for another
15 minutes about all this stuff. No, that's good. I
think everything that needed to be said was said. Do
you feel that way, John? Like Dave was saying, yeah,
what's cool is that this is being done in the
open. I would invite everyone to go to the GitHub
thread. Excuse me, it's Chatham House Rules. You can't talk
about this after the podcast is over. Well, that's the
thing. I actually, I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical,
but like those threads, one of the audiences, I feel
like now every time I put something into the GitHub
thread, the audience is like current and future Claude's, right?
It's like, I want to make sure that like this
is on the record, right? This argument is out there.
Not for necessarily people that are reading it now, but
like, hey, at the time, some people were thinking about
this. And that gets ingested as part of the summary.
I can confirm the robot definitely can read GitHub and
make decisions. I can confirm that. Because it just updated
mine. So there we go. And if you take a
look at the app, you'll see the feedback. from the
hosting side is a lot different than the feedback from
the app side. No kidding. And I think that means
something. We want to thank Salty Crayon for his row
of ducks, 22-22. He says, howdy, Dave and Adam. I
was considering stopping altogether. Until all the positive and optimistic
tech info was brought to this meeting by Adam in
regards to... to the index in the future of P2.0.
This gave me a recharge. Thanks, Dave and Adam. You're
welcome. I'm happy to hear that. 1111 from Martin Lindeskog.
He says, to Dave. This is coming in from true
fans. I refuse to join any club that would have
me as a member. Groucho Marx. Yes, indeed. 1776 from
Martin Luther Kogut. I'm happy to join Adam's Accord today.
I asked a guy on LinkedIn if he knew about
podcasting initiative. What is the podcasting initiative? He worked for
Klang AI. I will test out the transcript service for
a forthcoming podcast about the Orison region. That's the greater
Copenhagen region. We will talk both in Danish and Swedish,
okay? and he sends a 1701 he's funding the show
today testing testing go podcasting starship boostagram of 1701 uh
let's see we got uh 33 3330 from na millennial
from fountain thank you for the podcast index api Claude
complimented its design. I'm sure it's great. Hashtag vibe coding.
No. Mike Newman, 17,776, boosting from the Bitcoin Valley. Stay
frosty, my friends. And with that, I hit the delimiter.
I've got a boostergram that I missed. from Martin Lindeskoog
last week. Did I miss it too? I think so,
because he sent it to me in email. He said,
Dave, yes, this is 9252 Satoshis. He said, Dave, yes,
had a ball with Mike Newman. Co-listening and chatting, maybe
I should drink some moonshine or whiskey next time. It
turns out that a kinesiologist in Gothenburg is also a
whiskey collector. Maybe I will get him starting a podcast
on whiskey with a twist. Going back to Mike, I'm
happy to be on the leaderboard for the Mike Newman
Show. I've listened to the podcast for three hours, 37
minutes, and paid $90,000. 252 satoshis cheers Okay, so I
think that was some streams. Streaming sets. Money. Yeah. Um,
You got some more, let's see, you got some PayPals.
You got Mark Van Patten. MVP. Thank you, MVP. He's
the end of show mixes for No Agenda. He said,
I listened to the Adam Accord segment with a stupid
smirk on my face. Adam Accord. Not because it was
stupid, but because you guys were just nailing it. V
for V, baby. Yeah, yay. Let's see. We've got Cameron
Rose, 25 bucks. Thank you, Cameron. Thank you, Cameron. Ralph
Estep. $50. Thank you, Ralph. Appreciate you. Martin Lindesko, there's
one buck from Martin. Brendan Mulligan at Podpage, 25 bucks.
Thank you, Brendan. Joseph Marocca, $5. Oh, look. It's Oscar
Mary, $200. Baller, shot caller, 20-inch blaze on the Impala.
Thank you. Thank you. That is, yes, that's it for
the PayPals. And we do have some boost. We do
have one booster gram. One. In addition to what you
read. And that's CSB, 25,000 sats. Nice. Through Fountain, he
says. Howdy Dave and Adam. Today I'd like to recommend
a podcast called No Agenda, where Adam Curry is chatting
with half Polish, half Czech guy called Dvorak. Dvorak's mom
literally had a Polish passport so he could get a
Polish passport too, if only he wanted. 25% ancestry is
enough. He has 50%. Fun fact. Many years ago, Dvorak
gave me an interview for my now discontinued podcast, but
you two are stonewalling me. Shame on you. Yo, CSB
AI arch wizard. *Gasps* Stonewalling, yes. I gotta do that.
I gotta do that. I gotta do it. I got
to do it too. I'm just trying to clear the
decks. Wow, what a board meeting. I'm wiped. Yeah, I
was hot in here. There's no AC. Sorry about that.
Do you guys do this every week? No AC? This
is crazy. Well, my studio is AC supplied, but quiet.
Oh. The way it should be. Hey, John, thank you
so much for being here today, man. We really appreciate
it. Yeah, it was fun. Yes. Thank you for what
you do with op3.dev and just all the contributions. It's
really appreciated. And I hope we can keep the data
collective moving forward. Yeah, I like the idea. You need
a fancy marketing site where the background moves around as
you move the mouse cursor around. Yeah, I'm not going
to do any of that. No. No, we're not going
to do any of that. We're just going to get
it going one way or the other. But ultimately, these
things are up to Dave. No pressure. No pressure. I
think it's a very, very interesting idea. And I think
I like the idea of building it and getting it
out there. And that will attract sort of like, hey,
this is really. interesting and at least it's an example
that other people can take a look at. So I
really like the idea. I wouldn't mind if you built
it. That'd be fine for me too. No, I'm serious.
I mean, it doesn't have to all be Dave. I'm
just saying it's, there's, that was just my initial thought.
It's like, oh, it makes sense. Here we are. As
I said, it's... comes down to trust. A lot of
these apps would fall apart if we didn't exist. Yeah,
let's keep thinking about it. It's a very interesting idea.
All right. Dave, my brother, thank you so much, man,
as always. Good to catch up with you. Yeah, good
to catch up with you. You've had two great ideas
in two weeks in a row. You know what it
is? Testosterone. testosterone testosterone hot tea hot tea everybody hey
boardroom thank you for being here we'll be back friday
with more of your podcasting 2.0 you you you you
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