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Podcasting 2.0 for November 29th, 2024, episode

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202, Walletpocalypse.

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Hey, hello, everybody.

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Oh, yeah, bright and early.

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We got the coffee flow in time for

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the official board meeting of Podcasting 2.0.

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This is where we discuss it all.

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And there's a lot to talk about today,

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including the Wallapocalypse, or whatever we're going to

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call it.

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This is the only boardroom that serves brunch

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on casual Fridays.

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I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of

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the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the

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man who can stop a hell thread dead

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in its tracks.

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Say hello to my friend on the other

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end, the one and only Mr. Dave Jones.

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Is this business casual today?

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It's not even business casual, just casual casual.

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I wore jeans.

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Yeah, jeans.

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Yeah, you have a t-shirt or I

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got a hoodie.

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So I figured that would be good.

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Yeah, I've got a hoodie.

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Here we are, everybody in the United States.

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It is the day after my mic sounds

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weird.

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Does this sound weird to you?

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It sounds okay to me.

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Yeah.

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Well, I made a huge mistake this morning.

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Yeah, I gotta be honest.

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I did it.

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It was you.

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You installed updates.

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Yeah, I sure did.

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You did, guess what?

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I did too.

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For the Roadcaster?

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No, no, for Ubuntu.

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I've been refreshing the Roadcaster to see if

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there's been an update for a long time.

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You installed updates on the Roadcaster this morning?

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Yes.

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Oh, that was deadly.

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I know, I know.

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I'm like, why am I even doing this?

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Because you can first download it and it's

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downloading and you scan the code to see

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what the update will be.

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And I'm looking at it's like, oh, new

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virtual inputs.

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And oh, this is an exciting update.

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Install.

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Oh no, why am I doing that?

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Yeah, you know, you're asking yourself why you're

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saying I shouldn't do this as you hit

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the button.

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Yeah, I know that.

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There must be a psychological thing with that

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where you're like, I know I shouldn't, but

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I'm going to do it anyway.

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It's complete stupidity is what it is.

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Anyway, I did it.

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There we go.

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So we are early.

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It is the day after Thanksgiving here in

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the United States, a day where we honor

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people with turkeys and funny hats and belt

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buckles on their shoes.

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And their belt buckles on their hats.

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And on the hats is right.

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And today, of course, even though Thanksgiving is

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not celebrated, I think Canada celebrates their own

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Thanksgiving in October.

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We do today.

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Friday is a great tradition in the United

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States, which is, I think, a global phenomenon

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at this point known as Black Friday, Black

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Friday, Black Friday.

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So we're celebrating that by by purchasing nothing.

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It's more like Black Friday is less of

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a day now and more like a month.

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It lasts forever.

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Forever.

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It's true.

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It is one of, it's kind of disgusting.

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Oh, it's horrible.

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Like, that's the most, it's the worst part

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of, you know, capitalism is the, is the

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best of the worst thing that we have.

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You know, like, it's, it's not like, like,

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nothing, no other economic system has the benefit

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to, has the benefit to bad stuff.

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It's 930 in the morning.

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I'm struggling here.

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It's all right.

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I'm having trouble listening to you.

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Don't worry.

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No, no other economic system has a closer

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to one to one pro con ratio than

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capitalism, but that doesn't mean that there's no

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cons.

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And one of them is just rampant commercialization

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of everything in our entire life.

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And Black Friday represents the worst of that.

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Yeah.

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And, and it really hit me this morning

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as I was looking at my Bible app

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and the Bible app had some Black Friday

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offer.

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Oh, no, no.

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Like, what is that?

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Oh, man.

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Um, thank you, Chad.

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I just, uh, I just pinged the pod.

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I completely forgot to update to live and

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hit the pod ping.

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So that's why there's not, not everybody's here.

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I'm sure.

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And of course it's Thanksgiving and it's holiday.

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It's the winter holiday season.

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So I woke up sick two days ago.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's just, you know, I usually

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typically, I usually get sick around Thanksgiving and

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then it goes away sometime in March.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Buckle up.

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My dog caught on fire last night.

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Okay.

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I'll bite your dog caught on fire.

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Yeah.

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So we, um, we had the kids over

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for, uh, Thanksgiving supper and, uh, had all

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the, um, we had all the stuff like,

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you know, I mean, it's such a great

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Thanksgiving meal and Melissa had put some of

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these little candles out on the windowsills in

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the, in the diner.

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I'm already feeling it.

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Yeah.

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And the, these are all, this is an

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old house.

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And so the, the windows are less, they're

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really stretchy.

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You know, they go down real low to

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the, they, they go down to about two

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feet off the floor.

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And my dog is like 105 pounds when

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I'm sitting down, his head comes up to

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almost my shoulder.

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Yeah.

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And so, yeah, big, big guy.

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And he's, he's in, he's a great Pyrenees.

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So he's in full fluff right now, like

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three, four inches of fluff all over him.

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Cause for went for winter and he comes

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over and it's like staring at me, we're

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playing a game after dinner, we're playing a

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board game and he's staring at me and

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I, and I look, I look at him

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and I, everybody's, we, we all at once

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sort of like stare, like, like turn and

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look because we hear this like crackling sound.

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Yeah.

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We hear a crackling sizzle and we all

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look over to him and then I'm like,

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Oh my God, he's on fire.

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His butt was over one of the candles

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and his butt was on fire.

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So I like jumped up and like started

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hitting him and knocking the fire off.

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He never even knew because he's so fluffy.

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Here we go.

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Yes.

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That was it.

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That was it.

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What is that?

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I smell over here in the, in the,

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in the pod Sage household.

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Hmm.

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He thought I was, he thought I was

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giving him a spanking for, he did something

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wrong, but he didn't do it.

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He never even noticed.

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I'm telling you, this fire was as big

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as my hand.

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Oh no.

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Yeah.

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That's great.

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He's got a big chunk out of his

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fur on the back of his butt.

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Oh man.

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Oh man.

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I mean, I've heard good Thanksgiving stories.

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This is, this is, this beats most of

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them.

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A friend of his grandma keeled over dead

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into her, into her, into her plate of

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food at the table.

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Yeah.

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That happened once.

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That's pretty good.

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And then they just propped her back up

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and kept on eating.

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No he did not.

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Yes.

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Shut up.

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Yes.

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While they waited, because she was old and

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they were kind of expecting it.

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That's not an excuse.

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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I feel like that beats the dog story.

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No, no, that's the, I like the dogs

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on fire and no one told me the

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dog doesn't even know it.

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Bet he smelled horrible in the room.

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Oh yeah.

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Burnt dog fur was, is not the right

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ambiance for Thanksgiving.

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So we are, we're doing the board meeting.

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First of all, because, well, we can, but

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also we really wanted to, and we weren't

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able to do, now, did we not do

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a board meeting last week?

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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We didn't.

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Do we, do we miss one?

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No, we did.

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Yeah, we did.

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We did two weeks ago.

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We missed the board meeting.

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Right.

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Okay.

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No, but Oscar couldn't make it.

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And we wanted to have Oscar on to

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talk about the, the walletpocalypse.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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How everything's broken.

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Yes.

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And, and in, in between, in between the

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last board meeting and today's board meeting, it

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has been, it's been a bumpy ride for

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some of the passengers on, on, on the,

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podcasting 2.0 health thread.

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There was a, there was a health thread,

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but you know, as health threads go and

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as communities go, wow, congratulations to all of

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us for kind of pulling through it, like

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a huge dysfunctional family reunion where a fight

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broke out and then, you know, people are

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like, you know, threatening to throw chairs and

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there's a bloody nose or two, but then

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it all kind of just, it kind of

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calmed down.

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And I was proud of us.

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I really wasn't like, look at us.

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We didn't, we didn't explode.

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No one, uh, rage quit and forked off,

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you know, the whole, you know, the whole

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namespace or anything like that.

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I mean, seriously for a, what are we,

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a four-year-old community?

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That was impressive.

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That was, and, and I was just as,

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as guilty of it as anybody else.

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Well, I mean, everybody just kind of, you

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know, griped and yelled at each other and

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then sat down and had checks mix.

279
00:09:30,690 --> 00:09:31,550
Checks mix.

280
00:09:33,090 --> 00:09:34,650
It was fine.

281
00:09:34,750 --> 00:09:35,130
It was fine.

282
00:09:35,210 --> 00:09:40,350
I mean, of course everybody's, everybody's gripey and

283
00:09:40,350 --> 00:09:43,090
aggravated because, you know, we have to change

284
00:09:43,090 --> 00:09:44,710
fundamentals here and it sucks.

285
00:09:44,970 --> 00:09:47,670
I mean, there's nothing great about having to

286
00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:51,250
go and re engineer a spec that everybody

287
00:09:51,250 --> 00:09:52,450
was already used to.

288
00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:54,490
That's never going to make anybody happy.

289
00:09:54,810 --> 00:09:55,930
It doesn't make me happy.

290
00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:56,610
I hate it.

291
00:09:57,450 --> 00:10:00,110
Um, but you know, I mean, it is,

292
00:10:00,350 --> 00:10:01,430
it is what it is.

293
00:10:01,470 --> 00:10:05,030
And the thing is like specs, you know,

294
00:10:05,030 --> 00:10:06,390
I'm sure we'll get into this with Oscar,

295
00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:10,990
but specs will, um, they become a victim

296
00:10:10,990 --> 00:10:14,490
of their own success always, always.

297
00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:18,850
And you just really can't, you, you can't

298
00:10:18,850 --> 00:10:21,070
let that own you.

299
00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:23,070
You have, when the changes need to happen,

300
00:10:23,170 --> 00:10:24,330
you have to change them.

301
00:10:24,850 --> 00:10:27,430
And if you, if you don't, if you

302
00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:29,530
don't, if you're not willing to ever break

303
00:10:29,530 --> 00:10:33,010
anything and move to a different model, this

304
00:10:33,010 --> 00:10:34,230
spec will just die.

305
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:37,330
It, it's just like, you can't, you can't

306
00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:37,990
force it.

307
00:10:38,370 --> 00:10:38,850
Yeah.

308
00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:40,830
So, you know, it's time to, it's time

309
00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:42,730
to break some stuff and it sucks.

310
00:10:42,730 --> 00:10:44,990
So there were a couple of things going

311
00:10:44,990 --> 00:10:45,710
on that I noticed.

312
00:10:45,890 --> 00:10:49,590
First, there was a general misunderstanding of terms

313
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:53,290
of, uh, different elements that were being talked

314
00:10:53,290 --> 00:10:53,730
about.

315
00:10:54,110 --> 00:10:57,410
Not everybody has the same level of understanding

316
00:10:57,410 --> 00:11:00,890
of the lightning network or different payment protocols.

317
00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:06,290
Um, yeah, there are also different agendas.

318
00:11:06,590 --> 00:11:11,390
There's, you know, there's a general, not everyone

319
00:11:11,390 --> 00:11:14,670
sees a wallet as, you know, a listener

320
00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:19,030
wallet as something different from a podcaster wallet.

321
00:11:20,290 --> 00:11:22,770
Um, you know, there's the app developers have

322
00:11:22,770 --> 00:11:25,690
different issues that they need to deal with

323
00:11:25,690 --> 00:11:29,690
for, uh, for payment wallets versus podcasters.

324
00:11:30,030 --> 00:11:33,430
Um, there's also what is kind of beautiful

325
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:37,170
and also out of the ordinary for our

326
00:11:37,170 --> 00:11:43,230
development community is that we don't really sit

327
00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:45,310
down and I'll write a spec on GitHub

328
00:11:45,310 --> 00:11:47,330
and then say, okay, this is it.

329
00:11:47,450 --> 00:11:48,690
Let's go and implement it.

330
00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:52,450
No, we, we, we break off into little

331
00:11:52,450 --> 00:11:54,910
places and we go, Hey, uh, you know,

332
00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:56,590
three or four people are in that corner

333
00:11:56,590 --> 00:11:58,070
and let me try and build this over

334
00:11:58,070 --> 00:11:58,450
here.

335
00:11:58,450 --> 00:11:59,950
And, and I think that was, that was

336
00:11:59,950 --> 00:12:03,430
quite confusing for, um, I know it was

337
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:06,250
probably for Boomi who was like, well, what

338
00:12:06,250 --> 00:12:06,650
are you doing?

339
00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:08,510
You have no spec, you know, and, and

340
00:12:08,510 --> 00:12:09,910
he hasn't really been a part of that

341
00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:12,810
process where we, where we just run with

342
00:12:12,810 --> 00:12:14,130
scissors and make stuff happen.

343
00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:17,650
And so I wound up actually in the

344
00:12:17,650 --> 00:12:20,370
Stephen Bell telegram group, the general group of

345
00:12:20,370 --> 00:12:23,690
the Stephen Bell telegram, uh, cinematic universe.

346
00:12:26,090 --> 00:12:26,530
Yes.

347
00:12:27,150 --> 00:12:29,390
No, the SBCU.

348
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:30,070
Yes, exactly.

349
00:12:30,890 --> 00:12:33,150
And, and, you know, Eric PP was in

350
00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:36,230
there and, um, you know, and, and then

351
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:40,550
there's also a contingent, um, just trying to

352
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:41,590
get it all out there and make sure

353
00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:44,450
I covered all the bases, you know, when,

354
00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:48,050
when we started this podcast index, just to

355
00:12:48,050 --> 00:12:51,130
go back to the Genesis was really for

356
00:12:51,130 --> 00:12:54,550
one main reason is to enable, uh, people

357
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:57,290
to have a place to develop apps and

358
00:12:57,290 --> 00:13:01,350
services on an index, a database with an

359
00:13:01,350 --> 00:13:04,050
API of all podcasts who want to be

360
00:13:04,050 --> 00:13:04,850
published in it.

361
00:13:04,910 --> 00:13:08,510
And without fear of, you know, political or

362
00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:11,850
any other reasons other than strict 100%

363
00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:14,670
U S legal code where we couldn't have

364
00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:18,670
that RSS feed made available, uh, which I

365
00:13:18,670 --> 00:13:21,090
think has been, or, you know, we're just

366
00:13:21,090 --> 00:13:23,030
taking stuff out that has, you know, that

367
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:24,730
is not, you know, like a test test

368
00:13:24,730 --> 00:13:26,430
one, two from, uh, from anchor.

369
00:13:26,490 --> 00:13:28,030
So we, we don't, we try to kick

370
00:13:28,030 --> 00:13:28,510
that out.

371
00:13:30,750 --> 00:13:33,510
Uh, and Simon, so that was for deplatforming

372
00:13:33,510 --> 00:13:35,490
that it all started with, with, uh, Apple

373
00:13:35,490 --> 00:13:37,510
taking things out of their index that P

374
00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:38,750
everyone was talking to.

375
00:13:39,450 --> 00:13:42,510
And then the financial platforming, which for over

376
00:13:42,510 --> 00:13:44,290
four years ago was pretty rampant.

377
00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:46,230
It's not that it's led up that much.

378
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:50,770
And that kind of crossed over into value

379
00:13:50,770 --> 00:13:53,870
for value with the idea that you could

380
00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:56,490
be sending value back to a podcaster while

381
00:13:56,490 --> 00:13:58,090
you were listening initially streaming.

382
00:13:58,330 --> 00:13:59,890
And then later on the group actually developed

383
00:13:59,890 --> 00:14:01,170
the boost and the booster gram.

384
00:14:02,110 --> 00:14:05,910
Um, and we chose the lightning network because

385
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:09,850
at the time, and arguably still is, you

386
00:14:09,850 --> 00:14:12,850
know, the best kind of open source way

387
00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:17,190
to do this with micropayments, um, best in,

388
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:19,670
in, in the term best encompasses a whole

389
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:20,470
lot of things.

390
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:23,250
Like, it's not just, it doesn't mean technical.

391
00:14:23,450 --> 00:14:27,190
It also means best it best as far

392
00:14:27,190 --> 00:14:30,930
as like technical trade-offs, um, adoption of

393
00:14:30,930 --> 00:14:33,310
the underlying currency is all kinds of things.

394
00:14:33,450 --> 00:14:33,550
Yeah.

395
00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:34,010
Yeah.

396
00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:36,170
And, uh, and so what that brought with

397
00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:40,110
it was, uh, people with, uh, people with

398
00:14:40,110 --> 00:14:41,990
Bitcoin, Bitcoin ethos.

399
00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:46,310
Um, so, and you know, that's, that's been

400
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:47,970
a kind of a bubbling under thing in

401
00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:48,310
general.

402
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:50,970
So, and we get into these almost religious

403
00:14:50,970 --> 00:14:55,310
things like, well, you're using high for podcasting

404
00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:56,810
2.0. It's a shit coin.

405
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:58,030
You're not real Bitcoin.

406
00:14:58,170 --> 00:15:00,510
It's not, we're just trying to make solutions,

407
00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:02,770
make stuff that works, that will work long

408
00:15:02,770 --> 00:15:03,050
-term.

409
00:15:04,530 --> 00:15:06,430
Um, so, so kind of stuff like that

410
00:15:06,430 --> 00:15:07,410
came into it.

411
00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:10,230
And so, and that just made for a

412
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:13,190
big, big ball of a gooey mess.

413
00:15:14,370 --> 00:15:16,030
And so here we are, and it really,

414
00:15:16,210 --> 00:15:17,090
it's all Oscar's fault.

415
00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:17,870
Good morning, Oscar.

416
00:15:17,950 --> 00:15:18,610
How are you?

417
00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:21,510
Hey guys.

418
00:15:23,710 --> 00:15:24,530
It's all your fault.

419
00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:24,990
Happy Thanksgiving.

420
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:25,550
Yes.

421
00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:25,970
Thank you.

422
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:27,110
Thank you very much, brother.

423
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:27,590
Thank you.

424
00:15:27,630 --> 00:15:29,370
You guys don't have any type of, I

425
00:15:29,370 --> 00:15:30,410
mean, certainly not the same day.

426
00:15:30,450 --> 00:15:32,070
Do you have any kind of Thanksgiving type

427
00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:33,650
celebrations in the, in the UK?

428
00:15:34,670 --> 00:15:37,370
I think we probably have the same vibe

429
00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:41,090
at Christmas, you know, everyone just getting together

430
00:15:41,090 --> 00:15:44,270
and having fun and, you know, spending time

431
00:15:44,270 --> 00:15:44,810
with family.

432
00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:46,330
So it's probably a similar vibe.

433
00:15:46,610 --> 00:15:47,830
And then the next day y'all hit

434
00:15:47,830 --> 00:15:53,230
each other with, uh, with boxing gloves, boxing,

435
00:15:53,470 --> 00:15:56,690
boxing day, boxer day, boxer day, boxing day,

436
00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:58,110
boxing, boxing day.

437
00:15:58,890 --> 00:15:59,190
Yeah.

438
00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:01,830
Boxing day is the, uh, the football day

439
00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:04,610
in the UK though, because they play, I

440
00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:06,010
think it's the only day of the year

441
00:16:06,010 --> 00:16:08,950
where every team in the Premier League plays.

442
00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:11,190
So most people are just sat at home

443
00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:12,950
watching football, right?

444
00:16:12,950 --> 00:16:15,270
That's very similar to our, to our, uh,

445
00:16:15,270 --> 00:16:17,510
Christmas, but certainly Thanksgiving here.

446
00:16:17,650 --> 00:16:20,870
It's like everyone's, you know, having fun, being

447
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:21,410
thankful.

448
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:23,770
And in the corner of the TV is

449
00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:26,590
with the, the New York, uh, the New

450
00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:28,770
York versus Dallas, you know, it's like, we

451
00:16:28,770 --> 00:16:30,410
got to have that game on, got to

452
00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:32,370
see what's going on with our team at

453
00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:33,790
all Detroit versus somebody.

454
00:16:33,930 --> 00:16:34,270
Yeah.

455
00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:36,430
So Dave, where do you want to start

456
00:16:36,430 --> 00:16:36,910
with Oscar?

457
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:40,030
You want to hit him below the knee

458
00:16:40,030 --> 00:16:41,670
and then we're all kind of crouched behind

459
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:42,910
him and you push him over me.

460
00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:43,850
So he falls backwards.

461
00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:44,350
One of those.

462
00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:44,930
Yeah.

463
00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:46,810
If you gut punch him into me, I'll

464
00:16:46,810 --> 00:16:47,170
get, yeah.

465
00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:47,510
Let's see.

466
00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:50,970
Um, well, I think I want to start

467
00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:52,850
with the whole, with what you released last

468
00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:54,950
week, the proof of concept for the pay,

469
00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:56,130
uh, pay a podcast.

470
00:16:57,030 --> 00:17:01,550
Um, this it's open, it's open source, uh,

471
00:17:01,550 --> 00:17:03,530
I believe, but have you opened that to,

472
00:17:03,609 --> 00:17:04,849
is it a public repo yet?

473
00:17:05,790 --> 00:17:05,970
Yeah.

474
00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:10,349
So I've actually just updated it today.

475
00:17:10,349 --> 00:17:12,390
That's kind of why I was scrambling around,

476
00:17:12,790 --> 00:17:15,750
but yeah, it's on a new domain now.

477
00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:16,589
Oh yes.

478
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:16,950
I see.

479
00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:17,450
It's gone.

480
00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:20,270
The original is the full, the full repo

481
00:17:20,270 --> 00:17:21,470
is open source.

482
00:17:21,490 --> 00:17:24,290
And also as part of the repo, um,

483
00:17:24,530 --> 00:17:27,730
I've actually worked on a library that you

484
00:17:27,730 --> 00:17:30,190
can pull into your own project if you

485
00:17:30,190 --> 00:17:30,450
want.

486
00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:32,750
Um, so what I'll do is just, um,

487
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:37,710
maybe like share the links in, um, stick

488
00:17:37,710 --> 00:17:38,730
it in the board room and I can

489
00:17:38,730 --> 00:17:39,210
pick it up.

490
00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:39,510
Yeah.

491
00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:40,870
If you stick it in there, that'd be

492
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:41,190
great.

493
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:44,930
But yeah, basically there's three URLs that are

494
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:45,410
useful.

495
00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:49,390
There's the main URL, which I just went

496
00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:51,970
and bought a domain called pod pay.org.

497
00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:54,090
Um, oh, okay.

498
00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:54,570
Great.

499
00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:56,750
Deployed it there.

500
00:17:56,790 --> 00:17:59,410
And then there's the GitHub link, which has

501
00:17:59,410 --> 00:18:02,690
the full link to basically what you see

502
00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:04,630
on pod pay.org, which is the demo

503
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:05,030
site.

504
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:09,750
And then there's also a, uh, JSR, which

505
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:12,750
is a JavaScript package manager.

506
00:18:13,130 --> 00:18:15,230
There's also a link to the library that

507
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:16,670
the live demo is using.

508
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:19,810
So if anyone else wants to, um, it

509
00:18:19,810 --> 00:18:22,270
looks like that last link didn't go through

510
00:18:22,270 --> 00:18:25,070
the JSR one, but yeah, that's like a

511
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:27,790
library that you can use that makes like

512
00:18:27,790 --> 00:18:30,670
some of the stuff, um, around Ellen address

513
00:18:30,670 --> 00:18:31,630
a little bit easier.

514
00:18:31,870 --> 00:18:34,930
So yeah, that's where the demo is.

515
00:18:35,170 --> 00:18:39,110
And yeah, it's essentially the same thing as

516
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:41,710
you guys talked about on the last show

517
00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:45,350
with the addition of an idea on how

518
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:48,010
we can share the boost metadata, because obviously

519
00:18:48,010 --> 00:18:51,410
I think as people rightly pointed out, um,

520
00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:54,390
you know, this past week, the big issue

521
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:57,730
with bolts 11 is that most of the

522
00:18:57,730 --> 00:19:01,910
providers limit the character account for the memo

523
00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:03,450
to 200 characters.

524
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:06,170
So, you know, trying to put everything that

525
00:19:06,170 --> 00:19:08,910
we had in the, uh, keys and TLV

526
00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:11,350
that kind of won't really work.

527
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:13,110
So yeah, it's all there.

528
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:14,850
Encourage people to play around with it.

529
00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:16,310
And I'm happy to kind of talk through

530
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:18,050
it if that's helpful.

531
00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:19,230
Yeah.

532
00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:22,750
Why don't you just, well, you, I mean,

533
00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:24,090
you heard what we talked about last week

534
00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:26,070
and you saw the comments and I think

535
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:27,990
you may have actually talked to the Albie

536
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:28,770
guys this week.

537
00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:34,070
Um, can you just give your overall, uh,

538
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:35,870
I've got my impressions of where we're at

539
00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:37,330
right now, but what, what do you think

540
00:19:37,330 --> 00:19:38,350
about where we're at?

541
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:39,950
Yeah.

542
00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:40,370
Yeah.

543
00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:42,610
I'll, I'll try and give my best like

544
00:19:42,610 --> 00:19:46,050
high level, uh, overview and thoughts on where

545
00:19:46,050 --> 00:19:46,370
we're at.

546
00:19:46,550 --> 00:19:49,690
So I guess like, I think one thing

547
00:19:49,690 --> 00:19:54,290
that was maybe, um, made this situation feel

548
00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:56,390
a little bit more intense than it actually

549
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:59,210
is, is because I think there's actually multiple

550
00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:03,570
things happening here and they're not actually linked.

551
00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:07,150
They just happened to be, you know, happening

552
00:20:07,150 --> 00:20:07,790
right now.

553
00:20:07,810 --> 00:20:10,350
And actually it's beneficial that we do them

554
00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:11,330
all at once.

555
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:15,350
Um, so I guess from my perspective, there's

556
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:18,650
like three things that I think we kind

557
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:22,150
of need to do to take podcasting 2

558
00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:25,310
.0 payments and the value spec to like

559
00:20:25,310 --> 00:20:27,230
the next level and make it easier for

560
00:20:27,230 --> 00:20:28,810
more people to participate.

561
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:32,570
I think the first is the onboarding issue.

562
00:20:32,930 --> 00:20:37,130
Um, it's just very difficult and also confusing

563
00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:40,870
for people that are new to Bitcoin to

564
00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:43,010
kind of enter this world and send their

565
00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:43,710
first payment.

566
00:20:43,970 --> 00:20:45,850
And one of the things we've seen time

567
00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:48,970
again with fountain is that, you know, once

568
00:20:48,970 --> 00:20:52,110
people get over that, um, kind of once

569
00:20:52,110 --> 00:20:54,170
people jump through that hoop, then they love

570
00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:54,370
it.

571
00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:56,990
But if you've never purchased Bitcoin before, it's

572
00:20:56,990 --> 00:20:58,110
very, very difficult.

573
00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:00,730
So I think solving the onboarding is a

574
00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:01,310
key piece.

575
00:21:01,610 --> 00:21:05,510
I think making the UX of sharing the

576
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:08,610
payment payment info easier is also a key

577
00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:08,990
piece.

578
00:21:09,230 --> 00:21:12,470
And then finally separating the boost metadata from

579
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:15,010
the payment is also a key piece.

580
00:21:15,090 --> 00:21:17,290
And I think the most important one of

581
00:21:17,290 --> 00:21:21,630
these is the onboarding and it's onboarding for

582
00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:23,710
all of the kind of players it's onboarding

583
00:21:23,710 --> 00:21:26,370
for listeners, it's onboarding for app developers, it's

584
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:27,890
onboarding for podcasters.

585
00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:30,750
And I think the thing that's held us

586
00:21:30,750 --> 00:21:32,230
back is key sent.

587
00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:35,310
And, you know, key send is amazing as

588
00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:38,070
a protocol, but the challenge with it is

589
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:41,250
that it's not really seeing adoption outside of

590
00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:46,050
podcasting 2.0. And, you know, there's every

591
00:21:46,050 --> 00:21:47,890
kind of like couple of months, there's new

592
00:21:47,890 --> 00:21:51,030
players in the lightning wallet space, you know,

593
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:53,590
there's multinational banks that are adding support for

594
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:53,890
lightning.

595
00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:56,070
And every time we see one of these

596
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:58,590
new wallets, the thing that they always add

597
00:21:58,590 --> 00:22:00,990
is the lightning address and bolt 11.

598
00:22:01,410 --> 00:22:04,450
And none of them are adding key send

599
00:22:04,450 --> 00:22:06,110
and none of them really have a reason

600
00:22:06,110 --> 00:22:08,090
to add key send because it's just not

601
00:22:08,090 --> 00:22:11,330
really used outside of podcasting 2.0. I

602
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:13,590
think we might be like the only, you

603
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:16,270
know, people actually using it on a regular

604
00:22:16,270 --> 00:22:16,810
basis.

605
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:18,690
Last last of the Mohicans here.

606
00:22:19,150 --> 00:22:20,270
Yeah, exactly.

607
00:22:20,550 --> 00:22:21,910
And it works really well.

608
00:22:22,010 --> 00:22:24,930
It's just that it's just confusing to users

609
00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:28,810
because and the thing with lightning address is

610
00:22:28,810 --> 00:22:31,690
that it's amazing user experience.

611
00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:33,570
It makes sense to people because it's just

612
00:22:33,570 --> 00:22:34,750
like an email address.

613
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:36,950
And so we have to say is, this

614
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:39,130
is like an email address for money, go

615
00:22:39,130 --> 00:22:41,350
and get one from your favorite wallet, and

616
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:42,270
then you're ready to go.

617
00:22:42,410 --> 00:22:44,790
But the issue we've had is that people

618
00:22:44,790 --> 00:22:46,190
would do that they'd go and get a

619
00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:48,350
strike lightning address, they'd go and get, you

620
00:22:48,350 --> 00:22:50,050
know, another wallet lightning address.

621
00:22:50,250 --> 00:22:51,850
And then there's that other step, which is

622
00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:54,370
actually Oh, no, you actually need a new

623
00:22:54,370 --> 00:22:56,450
lightning address, which is a key send enabled

624
00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:57,210
lightning address.

625
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:58,730
And then in order to share that with

626
00:22:58,730 --> 00:23:01,290
someone, you have to find the value block

627
00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:03,750
like custom TLV stuff and share that.

628
00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:08,790
And I think that onboarding barrier is like

629
00:23:08,790 --> 00:23:11,270
really kind of like, holding us back.

630
00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:13,290
And for me, that's like a big thing

631
00:23:13,290 --> 00:23:14,970
to try and solve.

632
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:16,350
Now, let me stop.

633
00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:17,150
Let me let me stop.

634
00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:20,730
So you're because you're talking about two, you're,

635
00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:24,130
you're talking about two different sort of onboarding

636
00:23:24,130 --> 00:23:26,850
problems here, you're talking about the onboarding problem

637
00:23:26,850 --> 00:23:32,270
of just getting a getting a listener into

638
00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:35,770
the micropayment lightning ecosystem.

639
00:23:35,770 --> 00:23:38,670
And then you're also talking about the problem

640
00:23:38,670 --> 00:23:41,690
of onboarding from the standpoint of a tech

641
00:23:41,690 --> 00:23:44,510
of a wallet that does support the key

642
00:23:44,510 --> 00:23:45,690
send that's required.

643
00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:46,890
Yeah.

644
00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:49,170
And so like that, I think those are

645
00:23:49,170 --> 00:23:51,690
important, because you, you're, I think you're exactly

646
00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:53,370
right, where we there's a lot of things

647
00:23:53,370 --> 00:23:55,590
happening all at once, and they're not necessarily

648
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:56,330
connected.

649
00:23:56,810 --> 00:24:02,150
But you have the key send issue is

650
00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:05,950
putting a barrier in front of people that

651
00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:08,150
makes it even more hard.

652
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:11,370
It's not the same as just onboarding somebody

653
00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:14,910
into a wallet to begin with, but it

654
00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:17,430
adds just an extra set of problems where

655
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:20,290
you exclude a whole set of wallets that

656
00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:21,910
could have been used before then now they

657
00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:22,390
can't be.

658
00:24:23,290 --> 00:24:23,930
Exactly.

659
00:24:24,110 --> 00:24:24,270
Yeah.

660
00:24:24,330 --> 00:24:26,410
And I think one of the most important

661
00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:28,850
things to to kind of think about with

662
00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:34,710
this is that lightning adoption is happening region

663
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:37,010
by region and country by country.

664
00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:40,830
And actually, the best wallets for people in

665
00:24:40,830 --> 00:24:44,530
one particular country are often the local, you

666
00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:48,410
know, lightning wallets that, you know, they're set

667
00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:50,150
up in that country, the team are in

668
00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:53,230
that country, you know, all of the materials,

669
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:55,150
the education is in that language.

670
00:24:55,950 --> 00:24:59,930
And, you know, that just allowing someone to

671
00:24:59,930 --> 00:25:03,250
download their local country wallet and have a

672
00:25:03,250 --> 00:25:06,190
lightning address and then participate in all of

673
00:25:06,190 --> 00:25:09,130
the cool things that lightning enables podcasting 2

674
00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:12,550
.0 being one of them is that's way

675
00:25:12,550 --> 00:25:15,730
easier than having to onboard to a lightning

676
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:19,110
wallet and then essentially onboard again to a

677
00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:20,130
different wallet.

678
00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:20,850
Yes.

679
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:22,910
And kind of like go through the whole

680
00:25:22,910 --> 00:25:23,910
thing again.

681
00:25:24,050 --> 00:25:25,850
And also, you know, even if you are

682
00:25:25,850 --> 00:25:28,390
able to do those two things, it just

683
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:30,670
creates this kind of like friction where you're

684
00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:31,450
like, hold on a minute.

685
00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:33,790
I thought lightning was supposed to be this

686
00:25:33,790 --> 00:25:34,930
interoperable thing.

687
00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:37,870
But actually, it's not because, you know, I

688
00:25:37,870 --> 00:25:39,350
thought I had a lightning address.

689
00:25:39,530 --> 00:25:41,090
I only need one email address.

690
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:44,330
Why do I need another one for podcasting?

691
00:25:47,150 --> 00:25:50,230
Before we move beyond this, and I don't

692
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:51,730
know what you're seeing, because you may be

693
00:25:51,730 --> 00:25:52,710
a bit closer to it.

694
00:25:52,890 --> 00:25:55,010
But here in the United States, I'm seeing

695
00:25:55,010 --> 00:25:57,630
the adoption of the lightning network.

696
00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:59,750
And in this case, bolt 11 and maybe

697
00:25:59,750 --> 00:26:00,330
bolt 12.

698
00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:02,310
But just, you know, the the basic LN

699
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:04,890
URL functionality of lightning payments.

700
00:26:05,170 --> 00:26:08,110
I'm seeing this being integrated into all kinds

701
00:26:08,110 --> 00:26:09,350
of financial services.

702
00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:12,630
Many banks have it already where you can

703
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:16,410
deposit and withdraw money through lightning.

704
00:26:17,670 --> 00:26:22,830
I we've heard from PayPal, because we're no

705
00:26:22,830 --> 00:26:23,910
agenda uses PayPal.

706
00:26:23,910 --> 00:26:25,990
And we're we're, you know, we're a customer,

707
00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:28,870
at least they pay attention to, they say

708
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:34,270
that some Bitcoin slash lightning functionality is coming.

709
00:26:35,090 --> 00:26:37,670
Cash app has something that you can do

710
00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:38,270
with lightning.

711
00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:39,210
I'm not even sure.

712
00:26:39,670 --> 00:26:42,190
Do you see a general move towards financial

713
00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:45,150
services using the lightning network purely for their

714
00:26:45,150 --> 00:26:49,070
own benefit of instant settlements and low fees

715
00:26:49,070 --> 00:26:51,990
and not really having to deal with counterparty

716
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:52,250
risk?

717
00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:56,070
You see this rolling out more and more?

718
00:26:57,130 --> 00:26:58,990
Yeah, 100% I do.

719
00:26:59,170 --> 00:27:00,970
And what's cool about it is there's so

720
00:27:00,970 --> 00:27:04,310
many different like categories of businesses that are

721
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:06,650
starting to adopt lightning, you know, you have

722
00:27:06,650 --> 00:27:09,210
the like, you know, I guess, pure play

723
00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:12,790
lightning wallets, then you have the, you know,

724
00:27:13,050 --> 00:27:15,950
neo banks adding support for lightning, then you

725
00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:20,110
have the local exchanges in each region adding

726
00:27:20,110 --> 00:27:22,990
lightning because it makes, you know, the purchasing

727
00:27:22,990 --> 00:27:24,750
of Bitcoin more valuable.

728
00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:27,250
Then you have like the huge companies like

729
00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:29,550
light spark, which are kind of trying to

730
00:27:29,550 --> 00:27:32,570
onboard even, you know, bigger kind of entity.

731
00:27:32,790 --> 00:27:34,490
So I think it's definitely happening.

732
00:27:34,770 --> 00:27:37,630
Like the, the adoption of lightning is happening.

733
00:27:37,770 --> 00:27:40,390
It's just the adoption of lightning is the

734
00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:42,550
adoption of bolt 11 and lightning address.

735
00:27:42,850 --> 00:27:44,910
And that's what I think we kind of

736
00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:48,270
need to, you know, realign to so that

737
00:27:48,270 --> 00:27:50,830
we can just say to people, all you

738
00:27:50,830 --> 00:27:54,430
need to participate in podcasting 2.0 is

739
00:27:54,430 --> 00:27:55,230
a lightning address.

740
00:27:55,490 --> 00:27:57,090
You want to be added to splits.

741
00:27:57,450 --> 00:27:58,990
Just give me your lightning address.

742
00:27:59,450 --> 00:28:01,090
You want to send a payment, you just

743
00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:01,990
need a lightning address.

744
00:28:02,090 --> 00:28:03,590
You want to receive a payment, you just

745
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:04,630
need a lightning address.

746
00:28:06,010 --> 00:28:08,050
Yeah, my own experience.

747
00:28:08,990 --> 00:28:11,870
Earlier this week, a friend of mine who

748
00:28:11,870 --> 00:28:14,530
has a podcast and you know, he was

749
00:28:14,530 --> 00:28:17,630
able through rss.com to get his, his

750
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:20,330
Albi wallet connected and all that stuff more

751
00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:21,210
than a year ago.

752
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:24,910
But he literally had his wallet just filled

753
00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:25,450
with stuff.

754
00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:27,310
And he's like, I don't really know what

755
00:28:27,310 --> 00:28:28,030
to do with it.

756
00:28:28,690 --> 00:28:30,650
Also, I really kind of want to buy

757
00:28:30,650 --> 00:28:31,190
Bitcoin.

758
00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:33,170
And you know, so I said, well, look

759
00:28:33,170 --> 00:28:35,150
at Swan, look at Coinbase.

760
00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:36,650
And his, you know, his eyes are rolling

761
00:28:36,650 --> 00:28:38,090
around the whole scanning.

762
00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:41,290
And the invoice is so counterintuitive.

763
00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:44,150
And so I said, well, let's let's set

764
00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:45,210
you up with the strike wallet.

765
00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:48,710
And the aha moment was almost immediate.

766
00:28:49,550 --> 00:28:51,730
And then even could, even though it was

767
00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:54,730
still consisted of scanning a QR code, the

768
00:28:54,730 --> 00:28:58,910
connecting his strike to fountain with which he

769
00:28:58,910 --> 00:29:00,850
uses was Oh, okay.

770
00:29:01,010 --> 00:29:01,610
Well, okay.

771
00:29:01,650 --> 00:29:03,430
So now just everything goes through strike.

772
00:29:03,490 --> 00:29:05,270
And that's my connection to my bank.

773
00:29:05,470 --> 00:29:06,650
And yes, yeah.

774
00:29:06,670 --> 00:29:08,870
So that it was beautiful to see that

775
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:11,430
because he had really been struggling on how

776
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:12,630
do I get this stuff out?

777
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:14,390
How do I get to spend this in

778
00:29:14,390 --> 00:29:15,330
dollars?

779
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:17,490
You know, he never really, it didn't matter

780
00:29:17,490 --> 00:29:19,150
how many times I showed him.

781
00:29:19,270 --> 00:29:21,390
He, you know, a month later be like,

782
00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:22,870
you know, could you help me with that

783
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:24,330
wallet thing again?

784
00:29:24,390 --> 00:29:25,630
Because I really don't quite understand it.

785
00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:27,390
And now just like, Oh, exactly.

786
00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:29,650
As you said, Oh, I just I can

787
00:29:29,650 --> 00:29:32,610
use this email address, which is, you know,

788
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:34,710
his first name, last name, name at strike

789
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:36,610
.me says, Oh, okay.

790
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:37,430
I get this.

791
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:39,050
And, you know, just the light bulb went

792
00:29:39,050 --> 00:29:39,270
on.

793
00:29:39,330 --> 00:29:40,370
It was beautiful to watch.

794
00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:42,170
Yeah, exactly.

795
00:29:42,370 --> 00:29:44,630
And we see this again and again and

796
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:49,210
again, and, you know, yeah, you know, fountain

797
00:29:49,210 --> 00:29:51,610
and all the other podcasting 2.0 apps,

798
00:29:51,610 --> 00:29:54,450
like we want to build podcast apps with

799
00:29:54,450 --> 00:29:58,210
cool, you know, payment experiences and other new

800
00:29:58,210 --> 00:30:00,710
features that elevate podcasting.

801
00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:02,710
We don't want to be spending our time,

802
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:07,010
like integrating with on-ramp providers and like,

803
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:11,870
you know, integrating, you know, KYC providers and,

804
00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:15,070
you know, banking integrations, that kind of stuff.

805
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:17,870
You know, that's what the companies like strike

806
00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:19,630
are going to do really well.

807
00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:23,550
And by using OAuth and also by using

808
00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:25,730
Nosta Wallet Connect, which I think is another

809
00:30:25,730 --> 00:30:28,910
great option that maintains that non-custodial option.

810
00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:32,230
It allows the podcast app developers to just

811
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:34,050
defer that work.

812
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:36,470
And there's so much work there, you know,

813
00:30:36,490 --> 00:30:38,890
both on the technical side, the education, the

814
00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:42,230
support, like everything, just defer that to the

815
00:30:42,230 --> 00:30:45,590
actual wallet companies, just like, just like we've

816
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:48,170
been doing with, you know, Albi so far,

817
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:50,830
and, you know, we'll continue to work with

818
00:30:50,830 --> 00:30:51,110
Albi.

819
00:30:51,210 --> 00:30:52,610
I think what they've done with the Albi

820
00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:53,750
Hub is amazing.

821
00:30:54,130 --> 00:30:55,810
And, you know, Fountain is going to add

822
00:30:55,810 --> 00:30:57,690
support for Nosta Wallet Connect.

823
00:30:57,930 --> 00:31:00,190
So you can actually log into Fountain with

824
00:31:00,190 --> 00:31:01,130
your Albi Hub.

825
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:04,570
So we very much see it as there

826
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:07,130
being two options for people to get started.

827
00:31:07,790 --> 00:31:11,110
You can, you know, do an OAuth connection

828
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:13,330
with someone like Strike, which is going to

829
00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:16,250
be the like easiest first step, the most

830
00:31:16,250 --> 00:31:18,650
kind of familiar for users.

831
00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:20,910
And then once you become a little bit

832
00:31:20,910 --> 00:31:22,890
more advanced, you could make the decision to,

833
00:31:23,070 --> 00:31:24,190
okay, I want to go and set up

834
00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:25,910
an Albi Hub and use my Albi Hub

835
00:31:25,910 --> 00:31:28,870
across all of the, you know, lightning apps

836
00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:29,610
that are available.

837
00:31:30,030 --> 00:31:31,950
And, you know, the apps support that too.

838
00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:34,310
So I think just giving people those two

839
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:36,450
options makes the onboarding way easier.

840
00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:40,230
So, yeah, let me, so you, from the

841
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:42,190
10,000 foot view, I think, I think

842
00:31:42,190 --> 00:31:43,710
the most, one of the most important things

843
00:31:43,710 --> 00:31:46,190
you said is that we have a lot

844
00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:48,730
of things changing at once that aren't necessarily

845
00:31:48,730 --> 00:31:51,210
connected, but sort of all need to be

846
00:31:51,210 --> 00:31:51,550
done.

847
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:56,150
And one of the things that, so to

848
00:31:56,150 --> 00:31:57,490
just kind of further flesh that out a

849
00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:02,450
little bit, every, you said every, you know,

850
00:32:02,490 --> 00:32:07,250
wallet has, everybody's wallet is local.

851
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:10,210
So you might have something like Chive Wallet

852
00:32:10,210 --> 00:32:13,930
in El Salvador, Strike Wallet, you know, in

853
00:32:13,930 --> 00:32:16,350
the US and where it's supported, Cash App,

854
00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:19,510
these various wallets that are available to people.

855
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:20,950
And that's the one you would want to

856
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:21,950
connect with.

857
00:32:24,570 --> 00:32:27,190
That also, it strikes me that that extends

858
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:31,870
to podcast apps as well, because each podcast

859
00:32:31,870 --> 00:32:33,890
app, and I think this, the reason I'm

860
00:32:33,890 --> 00:32:35,650
bringing this up is because I think this

861
00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:37,470
addresses some of the things that Sam Sethi

862
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:40,190
said this week with some of the stuff

863
00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:41,150
that he was talking about.

864
00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:46,230
Every podcast app also has its own purpose

865
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:47,930
and its own inner, you know, and its

866
00:32:47,930 --> 00:32:51,810
own sort of goals in mind.

867
00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:56,270
So like Sam has taken, what Sam has

868
00:32:56,270 --> 00:33:02,750
done is taken his true fans and wrapped

869
00:33:02,750 --> 00:33:06,390
it in an onboarding process that's as easy

870
00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:09,110
as he can make it using things like,

871
00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:11,910
you know, Apple Pay and that kind of

872
00:33:11,910 --> 00:33:15,630
thing to top up a sort of a

873
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:19,750
wallet that's obscured in what it is.

874
00:33:20,270 --> 00:33:22,510
So you're not, you know, it's not lightning

875
00:33:22,510 --> 00:33:28,350
necessarily, you can put lightning in, but it's

876
00:33:28,350 --> 00:33:31,010
a true fan, sort of like genericized token

877
00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:31,670
type of deal.

878
00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:34,390
And so, and then, but then, you know,

879
00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:37,350
in Fountain for Fountain, you know, for you

880
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:39,610
guys, you have, you know, Zebedee on the

881
00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:40,110
back end.

882
00:33:40,210 --> 00:33:41,630
So you have some keys in, so you're

883
00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:43,610
doing a lot of things like saying, but

884
00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:45,310
the reason I'm bringing that is because Sam

885
00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:48,410
is like, well, I don't want people using

886
00:33:48,410 --> 00:33:50,050
true fans as a lightning wallet.

887
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:51,890
You know, it's just not, I don't, I

888
00:33:51,890 --> 00:33:53,610
don't want that as an, as the owner

889
00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:54,310
of this product.

890
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:57,210
I don't think that's a good experience from,

891
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:58,370
for my product.

892
00:33:59,030 --> 00:34:03,070
And that's completely fair and like legit.

893
00:34:03,870 --> 00:34:06,030
And so if you're in that, you know,

894
00:34:06,050 --> 00:34:07,590
if you're in that boat, like Sam is,

895
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:10,989
then you have a different set of priorities

896
00:34:10,989 --> 00:34:13,190
on how you, on how you take care

897
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:16,070
of these things versus a different app that's

898
00:34:16,070 --> 00:34:17,870
like, well, you know, I don't, I don't

899
00:34:17,870 --> 00:34:18,810
really care about that.

900
00:34:18,810 --> 00:34:23,030
Something like Castamatic, you know, or the split

901
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:26,949
kit, you know, or CurioCaster, where it's like,

902
00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:28,610
well, I just want to, I don't, I

903
00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:32,650
don't really have an infrastructure that's, you know,

904
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:34,210
built for payments at all.

905
00:34:34,290 --> 00:34:35,230
Like true fans does.

906
00:34:35,290 --> 00:34:37,250
I just want to connect to this other

907
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:39,389
thing and have them sort of do the

908
00:34:39,389 --> 00:34:40,590
whole thing for me.

909
00:34:42,010 --> 00:34:44,230
It, it just strikes me that that's another

910
00:34:44,230 --> 00:34:46,070
sort of twist that makes this a little

911
00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:49,889
complicated is because everybody's priorities for their own

912
00:34:49,889 --> 00:34:51,270
podcast app is different.

913
00:34:51,469 --> 00:34:51,590
Yeah.

914
00:34:53,670 --> 00:34:54,030
Yeah.

915
00:34:54,610 --> 00:34:54,909
Yeah.

916
00:34:54,929 --> 00:34:56,650
That makes, that makes total sense.

917
00:34:56,730 --> 00:35:02,310
And I think that, you know, whatever the

918
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:04,510
apps choose to do in terms of, you

919
00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:07,450
know, features or the way that they manage

920
00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:10,810
payments, I think that it's just, if you

921
00:35:10,810 --> 00:35:14,210
want to participate in the payments that work

922
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:17,110
between the apps, we were not able to

923
00:35:17,110 --> 00:35:20,230
do that with the fiat rails because you

924
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:23,170
essentially need like some permission layer in order

925
00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:25,170
to send a payment.

926
00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:28,930
You know, I think you could do anything

927
00:35:28,930 --> 00:35:32,450
you wanted within your own app, but when

928
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:36,710
you're talking about paying a podcaster that from

929
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:39,050
an app where that podcaster is not of

930
00:35:39,050 --> 00:35:41,110
that app, they don't know what that app

931
00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:42,690
is, but the payments still work.

932
00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:46,730
That's where you need lightning as the payment

933
00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:48,570
rail between all of the players.

934
00:35:48,970 --> 00:35:50,830
Well, strike is a good example of that

935
00:35:50,830 --> 00:35:53,110
in and of itself, because in different countries,

936
00:35:53,230 --> 00:35:55,050
it's not the same strike.

937
00:35:55,330 --> 00:35:59,850
I mean, like you have, you have payments

938
00:35:59,850 --> 00:36:03,610
going cross border through, through a crypt, you

939
00:36:03,610 --> 00:36:06,290
know, through either a stable coin or lightning,

940
00:36:06,690 --> 00:36:09,790
but then it, it always just comes out

941
00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:13,010
through the banking system when you off board.

942
00:36:13,210 --> 00:36:16,310
So like, even, even within strikes network itself,

943
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:18,390
I'm sure all their transactions on the, you

944
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:21,070
know, internally within their, you know, within borders

945
00:36:21,070 --> 00:36:24,610
is probably SQL based when it crosses borders,

946
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:26,350
it has to go through some, you know,

947
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:28,310
some stable coin or lightning.

948
00:36:28,510 --> 00:36:31,250
So there's the, and what you're saying is

949
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:34,610
like, well, within each app that can be

950
00:36:34,610 --> 00:36:38,610
completely independent, you can do whatever you want,

951
00:36:38,810 --> 00:36:40,230
but then as soon as it leaves your

952
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:42,330
app and goes to a different app, it

953
00:36:42,330 --> 00:36:43,950
needs to be a common protocol.

954
00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:46,770
And so that would be, you know, hopefully

955
00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:47,490
bolt 11.

956
00:36:49,390 --> 00:36:49,830
Yeah.

957
00:36:49,830 --> 00:36:50,270
Yeah.

958
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:53,210
But I mean, the, the thing, you know,

959
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:58,070
Keysend, so I've got, I don't want to

960
00:36:58,070 --> 00:36:59,510
get us, I don't want to get, get

961
00:36:59,510 --> 00:37:01,850
you off your train of thought, but one

962
00:37:01,850 --> 00:37:03,930
of the things that I was thinking about

963
00:37:03,930 --> 00:37:05,350
this morning is Keysend.

964
00:37:07,010 --> 00:37:09,670
I mean, can you pay a one set

965
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:12,930
invoice with bolt 11?

966
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:15,210
I mean, you can pay like, let's just

967
00:37:15,210 --> 00:37:17,490
take the worst case scenario, which would probably

968
00:37:17,490 --> 00:37:18,450
be the index.

969
00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:21,090
Honestly, you know, we, we've always had a

970
00:37:21,090 --> 00:37:24,910
1% split for any for, for things

971
00:37:24,910 --> 00:37:27,430
coming out of the API is completely voluntary,

972
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:30,130
but a lot of people would send that

973
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:30,930
to us.

974
00:37:31,070 --> 00:37:33,010
And a lot of times that ends up

975
00:37:33,010 --> 00:37:34,070
being like one sat.

976
00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:36,090
And so if you once, if you send

977
00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:40,290
a Keysend with one sat, a lot of

978
00:37:40,290 --> 00:37:41,070
times it works.

979
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:43,210
If you're lucky enough to go through some

980
00:37:43,210 --> 00:37:46,930
routes that are zero base fee and that

981
00:37:46,930 --> 00:37:48,110
kind of thing, you'll end up with a

982
00:37:48,110 --> 00:37:49,070
one set transfer.

983
00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:54,190
I don't know if, I don't know if

984
00:37:54,190 --> 00:37:58,050
you can generate an LNURLP bolt 11 invoice

985
00:37:58,050 --> 00:37:59,450
with one set.

986
00:37:59,750 --> 00:38:00,750
Let me give you my experience.

987
00:38:01,010 --> 00:38:03,530
So I put a, we did some running

988
00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:04,650
with scissors experiments.

989
00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:08,890
And so I put into the episode 201

990
00:38:08,890 --> 00:38:11,550
of podcasting 2.0, I put a 2

991
00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:16,610
% split and Eric PP did some, some

992
00:38:16,610 --> 00:38:21,710
coding and he, he basically created a, you

993
00:38:21,710 --> 00:38:24,370
know, a forked version of the, the boost

994
00:38:24,370 --> 00:38:27,750
button on, on, on podcast index.

995
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:30,590
And so he sent, he sent a hundred

996
00:38:30,590 --> 00:38:33,150
sats and in my strike wallet, which was

997
00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:35,430
the 2% split, I received two sats.

998
00:38:36,210 --> 00:38:37,310
So that's good.

999
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:37,630
Yeah.

1000
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:41,030
So that worked and I couldn't believe it.

1001
00:38:41,150 --> 00:38:44,250
Honestly, I'm like, what actually came through.

1002
00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:46,590
So on a hundred sat transaction.

1003
00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:48,850
And so I'm just going to presume that

1004
00:38:48,850 --> 00:38:50,690
one sat would have come through, would have

1005
00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:51,490
come through as well.

1006
00:38:52,610 --> 00:38:52,710
Yeah.

1007
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:54,090
If you're getting two, you're getting one.

1008
00:38:54,210 --> 00:38:54,630
I think so.

1009
00:38:54,830 --> 00:38:55,050
Yeah.

1010
00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:56,910
Cause you're probably zero base fee through the

1011
00:38:56,910 --> 00:38:57,990
whole chain at that point.

1012
00:38:58,130 --> 00:38:58,290
Yeah.

1013
00:38:58,970 --> 00:39:02,430
Well, and, and also a distinction for people

1014
00:39:02,430 --> 00:39:04,470
who don't understand the difference, like the difference

1015
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:07,470
when Keysend and bolt 11 is Keysend is

1016
00:39:07,470 --> 00:39:10,130
generating a pre-image on the sender side.

1017
00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:13,030
So one of the benefits of having the

1018
00:39:13,030 --> 00:39:18,710
recipient having the receipt, the receiver generate the

1019
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:22,190
pre-image is you actually get routing hints

1020
00:39:22,190 --> 00:39:25,270
with that pre-image creation on the same.

1021
00:39:25,370 --> 00:39:27,070
So the, if you say, okay, I want

1022
00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:31,670
to pay you and your wallet generates a

1023
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:35,190
pre-image and sent, you know, and sends

1024
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:35,830
it back.

1025
00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:40,010
Then what you're getting is routing hints all

1026
00:39:40,010 --> 00:39:40,430
the way.

1027
00:39:40,530 --> 00:39:42,130
So you have a more, a fit, like

1028
00:39:42,130 --> 00:39:44,590
you're more likely to get a payment to

1029
00:39:44,590 --> 00:39:46,770
be good, to go through successfully with a

1030
00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:48,910
bolt 11 generated invoice.

1031
00:39:49,150 --> 00:39:51,490
Then you are with a Keysend where it's

1032
00:39:51,490 --> 00:39:54,130
because Keysend is just has to depend on

1033
00:39:54,130 --> 00:39:58,330
its own a current graph where it's not

1034
00:39:58,330 --> 00:39:59,890
getting any help from the network.

1035
00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:03,610
Um, so that that's another benefit of going

1036
00:40:03,610 --> 00:40:04,470
with bolt 11.

1037
00:40:05,710 --> 00:40:10,350
Um, I, I just fit like we Keysend,

1038
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:14,570
you know, the historically Keysend, we, we chose

1039
00:40:14,570 --> 00:40:18,310
that because I believe and correct me if

1040
00:40:18,310 --> 00:40:21,770
I'm wrong, I don't think LNURLP even existed

1041
00:40:23,810 --> 00:40:28,950
when we, in August of 2020, or if

1042
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:32,190
it did, it was very, it was very

1043
00:40:32,190 --> 00:40:34,330
new and I don't think anybody supported it

1044
00:40:34,330 --> 00:40:34,650
yet.

1045
00:40:35,390 --> 00:40:37,790
I think Keysend was the only way.

1046
00:40:37,790 --> 00:40:39,630
Yeah, no, I know for sure because you

1047
00:40:39,630 --> 00:40:41,950
had, you could not just request an invoice

1048
00:40:41,950 --> 00:40:44,070
that, that was, that was the, I remember

1049
00:40:44,070 --> 00:40:44,790
it quite clearly.

1050
00:40:45,550 --> 00:40:47,870
Um, because, Oh, we, we can't have someone

1051
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:50,170
approving invoices or, you know, doing that the

1052
00:40:50,170 --> 00:40:50,590
whole time.

1053
00:40:50,690 --> 00:40:52,310
So it had to be an automatic process.

1054
00:40:53,110 --> 00:40:54,830
And, uh, so I don't think it, if,

1055
00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:56,830
if it existed, we didn't even know about

1056
00:40:56,830 --> 00:40:57,150
it.

1057
00:40:57,770 --> 00:40:58,130
Right.

1058
00:40:58,170 --> 00:40:59,870
It was very young or brand new or

1059
00:40:59,870 --> 00:41:00,570
something like that.

1060
00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:01,990
And there was no support for it.

1061
00:41:01,990 --> 00:41:04,450
So that it may, Keysend was really the

1062
00:41:04,450 --> 00:41:05,570
only option at the time.

1063
00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:09,490
And, you know, but, but now that we

1064
00:41:09,490 --> 00:41:12,590
have now, like you said, Oscar, now that

1065
00:41:12,590 --> 00:41:14,690
we have a mature Bolt 11, uh, sort

1066
00:41:14,690 --> 00:41:18,870
of LNURLP spec, even though I still don't

1067
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:21,170
like the receiver having to generate an invoice.

1068
00:41:21,450 --> 00:41:23,830
I mean, it's just, it's just where we're

1069
00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:26,070
at because lights like the way this is

1070
00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:28,150
being done on the financial institution level is

1071
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:30,290
through a thing called RTP, which means real

1072
00:41:30,290 --> 00:41:30,990
-time payments.

1073
00:41:31,410 --> 00:41:35,610
And what, what groups like LightSpark are doing

1074
00:41:35,610 --> 00:41:39,630
is they're layering lightning on top of RTP

1075
00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:44,910
so that, uh, RTP, so that traditional banking

1076
00:41:44,910 --> 00:41:51,070
institutions can participate in lightning transactions, but underneath

1077
00:41:51,070 --> 00:41:53,590
it's, it's the language they speak, which is

1078
00:41:53,590 --> 00:41:54,010
RTP.

1079
00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:56,250
So LightSpark puts sort of puts a layer

1080
00:41:56,250 --> 00:41:57,990
on top of RTP to do that.

1081
00:41:58,430 --> 00:42:02,150
Um, and so it, it sounds, it may

1082
00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:07,950
sound stupid or, or like, um, not, I

1083
00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:08,130
don't know.

1084
00:42:08,170 --> 00:42:10,490
It may sound sketchy to say, oh, well,

1085
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:13,410
traditional banks are starting to support lightning.

1086
00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:16,970
But it's not that they're supporting lightning natively.

1087
00:42:16,990 --> 00:42:19,990
They're supporting RTP and using a third party

1088
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:22,330
like LightSpark to make that transaction happen.

1089
00:42:23,230 --> 00:42:25,390
And that's something that is, that is actually

1090
00:42:25,390 --> 00:42:26,510
getting a lot of traction.

1091
00:42:26,510 --> 00:42:29,710
And if the UM, if the LightSpark UMA

1092
00:42:29,710 --> 00:42:33,570
stuff turned, turns out to be solid, I

1093
00:42:33,570 --> 00:42:34,670
don't know how much you know about that,

1094
00:42:34,770 --> 00:42:36,850
Oscar, but if that stuff turns out to

1095
00:42:36,850 --> 00:42:39,150
be solid and reliable as it rolls out,

1096
00:42:39,350 --> 00:42:41,370
I mean, that really will open up all

1097
00:42:41,370 --> 00:42:41,910
the doors.

1098
00:42:44,860 --> 00:42:45,580
Yeah, exactly.

1099
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,760
That's like, I would say one example of

1100
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:54,240
how you could have, you know, with, with

1101
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,640
KeySend in a time period of let's say

1102
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,340
one to two years, I don't think you

1103
00:43:00,340 --> 00:43:03,640
would have, you know, major banks around the

1104
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,060
world, you know, that people are already using

1105
00:43:06,060 --> 00:43:10,220
for their main accounts, integrating KeySend.

1106
00:43:10,420 --> 00:43:14,060
But with things like what LightSpark are doing,

1107
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:17,740
you could see the major banks around the

1108
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:21,320
world adopting, you know, and maybe they'll call

1109
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,760
it the universal money address, but it will

1110
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,420
still be interoperable with Lightning.

1111
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,120
And then, you know, the homeboarding problem just

1112
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,520
disappears completely, because it's just your bank account

1113
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,080
that happens to be able to speak to

1114
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,140
the Lightning Network.

1115
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,400
So I think that's another example of how

1116
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,320
that's the direction everything's going in.

1117
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,500
The I think one of the things that

1118
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:48,860
was confusing for people who just aren't that

1119
00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:51,660
completely into the Lightning Network part was this

1120
00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:53,780
additional LN address.

1121
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,460
And maybe you can just give us a

1122
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:56,060
little rundown.

1123
00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:59,460
What exactly is the difference between LN URL

1124
00:43:59,460 --> 00:44:02,300
pay, the LN address format?

1125
00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:03,680
Is it the same thing?

1126
00:44:03,940 --> 00:44:05,180
You know, just so people can get an

1127
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:09,540
understanding, because the LN address came up half

1128
00:44:09,540 --> 00:44:13,820
a year ago, as an abstraction layer that

1129
00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:18,720
Fountain and Albi wanted, in order to have

1130
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:21,700
people keep the same payment information in their

1131
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:26,560
feeds, but the infrastructure providers, such as Albi

1132
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,060
and Fountain to be able to change their

1133
00:44:29,060 --> 00:44:30,900
nodes or whatever they needed to do.

1134
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:32,040
Yeah.

1135
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,960
Yeah, that's a great point.

1136
00:44:35,020 --> 00:44:36,780
And this is kind of an example of,

1137
00:44:36,940 --> 00:44:39,800
you know, another thing that's happening that is

1138
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,600
not necessarily linked to what we've just been

1139
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,260
talking about.

1140
00:44:43,460 --> 00:44:46,360
But yeah, historically, the reason that, you know,

1141
00:44:46,500 --> 00:44:50,160
ourselves and Albi wanted to make this change

1142
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,300
is so that we don't have to put

1143
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:56,200
actual Lightning node pubkeys in the RSS feeds,

1144
00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:59,980
because we've had situations where we've had to

1145
00:44:59,980 --> 00:45:02,800
move the actual Lightning nodes, and we've had

1146
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,420
to go out and try and find all

1147
00:45:04,420 --> 00:45:07,120
of the RSS feeds that still have the

1148
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,600
old node in it and contact the podcasters

1149
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:10,920
and ask them to change it.

1150
00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:14,120
And it's just like, yeah, it's very difficult.

1151
00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:15,900
And the chances of you having to change

1152
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:18,520
the node pubkey in the future are quite

1153
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:18,820
high.

1154
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,580
So, to answer your question specifically, though, the

1155
00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:28,120
difference between the LN URL pay spec, which

1156
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,620
is what every single Lightning address supports, and

1157
00:45:31,620 --> 00:45:35,480
this newer LN address options spec.

1158
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,820
And really, it's just a different lookup URL.

1159
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,860
So, the regular LN URL pay lookup just

1160
00:45:43,860 --> 00:45:47,200
works in a way where you give a

1161
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,660
Lightning address and you receive back an invoice,

1162
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:50,800
a Bolt11 invoice.

1163
00:45:51,580 --> 00:45:54,980
The options lookup was just a way for

1164
00:45:54,980 --> 00:45:59,040
us to keep supporting keysend, but kind of

1165
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,660
give the option of paying a Bolt11 invoice

1166
00:46:02,660 --> 00:46:03,320
as well.

1167
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:06,740
It is important to say that the options

1168
00:46:06,740 --> 00:46:10,360
lookup spec, even though both Fountain and Albi

1169
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,660
support it, is not part of the official

1170
00:46:13,660 --> 00:46:15,300
LN URL spec.

1171
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:18,340
It's just something that, you know, Fountain, Albi,

1172
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,180
and, you know, Roy from Breeze was in

1173
00:46:20,180 --> 00:46:21,500
the GitHub discussion.

1174
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,260
It's just something that we came up with.

1175
00:46:24,020 --> 00:46:27,120
So, I also think it's important to say

1176
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,480
that, you know, that's like a separate piece.

1177
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:30,920
And you'll see if you look at the

1178
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,740
demo code that I've put together, there's some

1179
00:46:35,740 --> 00:46:38,180
code in there that says, like, does this

1180
00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:40,760
Lightning address support the options lookup?

1181
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:44,000
And currently, the Lightning address providers that support

1182
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,320
it are Fountain and Albi.

1183
00:46:45,940 --> 00:46:48,220
So, you'll see in the code, if you

1184
00:46:48,220 --> 00:46:51,560
look at it, if it's a Strike Lightning

1185
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,980
address, we're not actually using that options lookup.

1186
00:46:55,140 --> 00:46:58,120
We're just using regular LN URL pay lookup,

1187
00:46:58,220 --> 00:47:01,640
because we know Strike don't support keysend anyway.

1188
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,660
And, you know, we're just going to look

1189
00:47:04,660 --> 00:47:06,040
up the Bolt11 invoice.

1190
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:09,360
Now, my hope is that we can actually

1191
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,680
get the options lookup as part of the

1192
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,060
official spec, because I also think it's helpful

1193
00:47:14,060 --> 00:47:18,040
for when Bolt12 comes along that you don't

1194
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,640
have to, like, change the way you do

1195
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:20,180
the lookup.

1196
00:47:20,460 --> 00:47:22,560
But that may or may not happen.

1197
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,520
And so, I think that for, you know,

1198
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,680
all the app developers listening, you will have

1199
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,740
to do this check where you say, okay,

1200
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:34,700
is it, you know, who's the Lightning address

1201
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:35,140
provider?

1202
00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:37,340
And do they support the options lookup?

1203
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,120
But again, if you look at the demo

1204
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,720
code, it's really simple to do.

1205
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,660
And, you know, the lookups are only kind

1206
00:47:43,660 --> 00:47:47,140
of like one path parameter difference.

1207
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,140
So, they're very similar.

1208
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,260
Well, and you could also just sort of

1209
00:47:51,260 --> 00:47:52,680
do it a different way where you try

1210
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,860
the URL for the options URL first and

1211
00:47:55,860 --> 00:47:58,460
then fall back to the LN URLP URL

1212
00:47:58,460 --> 00:48:00,780
second without even having to have a lookup

1213
00:48:00,780 --> 00:48:01,060
table.

1214
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:01,960
Yeah.

1215
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:05,400
And the, I also think that the options

1216
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:06,940
lookup is a great idea.

1217
00:48:07,060 --> 00:48:08,120
And I think that's why Roy, I think

1218
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,120
Roy, I think Roy really pushed that concept

1219
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,420
because then you're, you're sort of future proofing

1220
00:48:16,420 --> 00:48:21,040
the LN URLP lookup itself, because even beyond

1221
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,740
Bolt12, there could be something else that happens

1222
00:48:23,740 --> 00:48:24,240
in the future.

1223
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,700
So, you don't want to tie anything to

1224
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:30,020
just one particular, you know, lookup.

1225
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:32,480
Yeah.

1226
00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:37,480
The, so the, the, the way, just, just

1227
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,700
to lay out the way this works is

1228
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:42,220
you, you do the, when you, when you

1229
00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:44,080
have an LN address in the, in the

1230
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,900
value block split, you do the lookup and

1231
00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:52,220
looking up that options URL that comes back

1232
00:48:52,220 --> 00:48:58,400
with potentially three options, keysend, LN URLP, Bolt11,

1233
00:48:59,080 --> 00:48:59,860
and Bolt12.

1234
00:49:01,220 --> 00:49:05,360
You, you take whichever one that you support

1235
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,960
and you pay it, preference being Bolt11 at

1236
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:10,540
this point.

1237
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,660
Then you attempt to pay that, you know,

1238
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:14,920
then you do the, you know, then you

1239
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,100
attempt to pay that invoice.

1240
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,260
Then, you know, you can fall back to

1241
00:49:20,260 --> 00:49:21,740
keysend if you, you know, if you need

1242
00:49:21,740 --> 00:49:26,900
to, then if that options lookup doesn't work,

1243
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,040
you fall back and just do a straight

1244
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,500
LN URLP lookup.

1245
00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:33,840
So, that would be your sort of payment

1246
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:34,900
flow there.

1247
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,020
You know, this, it's just not, there's no

1248
00:49:41,020 --> 00:49:42,000
way around this.

1249
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,160
Stuff's going to break over the, across the,

1250
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:47,560
you know, across the system.

1251
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:51,100
Now, one of the things that Boomi got

1252
00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:52,920
upset about was where, you know, he was

1253
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,920
saying that was FUD, was that we were

1254
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,860
saying that everything's going to, that, that all

1255
00:49:59,860 --> 00:50:02,500
the listener, Albi listener wallets are going to

1256
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:05,040
stop working on January 26th.

1257
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:11,020
And the listener stuff, not, if you moved

1258
00:50:11,020 --> 00:50:13,720
to Albi Hub, you're not going to see

1259
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:14,400
anything different.

1260
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:15,820
You're just going to keep on trucking.

1261
00:50:16,420 --> 00:50:17,500
Let me make that clear.

1262
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,760
But most, I mean, the overwhelming majority of

1263
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,580
people are not on Albi Hub as far

1264
00:50:24,580 --> 00:50:25,460
as listeners go.

1265
00:50:25,780 --> 00:50:28,220
Now, you know, listener wallets.

1266
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:33,220
Now, I would be shocked if 1%

1267
00:50:33,220 --> 00:50:38,740
or more of Castamatic listeners, listeners, are on

1268
00:50:38,740 --> 00:50:39,400
an Albi Hub.

1269
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,840
They're almost all going to be on a

1270
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:42,600
custodial wallet.

1271
00:50:43,420 --> 00:50:44,900
And they're all just going to, it's just

1272
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:45,480
going to stop.

1273
00:50:45,540 --> 00:50:46,540
It's just going to stop working.

1274
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,400
And that's just the reality of where we're

1275
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:49,680
at.

1276
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,820
So, in that, in that situation, a lot

1277
00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:55,700
of stuff's going to break.

1278
00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:58,740
Now, the, the, the podcaster side is going

1279
00:50:58,740 --> 00:51:00,920
to be less, the podcaster side is going

1280
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,580
to be less affected by that, but it

1281
00:51:02,580 --> 00:51:04,380
is going to be a big, a big

1282
00:51:04,380 --> 00:51:05,080
deal.

1283
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,260
And, you know, I don't even know if

1284
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:13,000
the index API, you know, I need to

1285
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:13,360
check that.

1286
00:51:13,380 --> 00:51:14,640
I don't even know if the index API.

1287
00:51:15,420 --> 00:51:16,600
We all, you know, we have a, we

1288
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,180
have, we have a lot of, we have

1289
00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:21,120
a lot of podcast feeds that were shimmed.

1290
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:22,800
Right.

1291
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:24,640
The podcaster wallet.

1292
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:24,920
Yeah.

1293
00:51:25,340 --> 00:51:29,080
And the, and the partner API, which, which

1294
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,520
I think Oscar, you guys use that frequently

1295
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,300
for people claiming their, claiming their, their feed

1296
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:37,900
on Fountain.

1297
00:51:38,380 --> 00:51:38,620
Yeah.

1298
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:39,700
Yeah, exactly.

1299
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:40,020
Yeah.

1300
00:51:40,060 --> 00:51:42,660
We, we have a lot of podcasters who

1301
00:51:42,660 --> 00:51:45,440
have, you know, set up value through that

1302
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:45,980
mechanism.

1303
00:51:46,780 --> 00:51:47,220
Okay.

1304
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:47,880
No, I'm sorry.

1305
00:51:47,980 --> 00:51:49,680
Chad F said this sunset date is January

1306
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,560
4th, not the 25th.

1307
00:51:51,580 --> 00:51:52,220
The 4th.

1308
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:52,740
I don't know.

1309
00:51:53,780 --> 00:51:54,980
I thought it was the 25th.

1310
00:51:54,980 --> 00:51:56,280
We just lost two weeks.

1311
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:56,800
Oh no.

1312
00:51:58,860 --> 00:52:01,400
Oh, Eric PP says index API does return

1313
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:01,880
LN address.

1314
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:02,120
Okay.

1315
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:02,740
All right.

1316
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,360
I thought it was generic enough to take

1317
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:05,840
it, but it's good to see that that's

1318
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:06,040
true.

1319
00:52:06,540 --> 00:52:07,100
Thanks, Eric.

1320
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,640
So are you, are you pushing LN address

1321
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,880
value blocks into the API now?

1322
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:14,700
In the index?

1323
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:14,980
No.

1324
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:15,760
So, no.

1325
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,640
So, you know, this, because of how big

1326
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,580
a change this is, I wanted to make

1327
00:52:23,580 --> 00:52:26,180
sure that like we didn't break anything in

1328
00:52:26,180 --> 00:52:27,200
any other apps.

1329
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,120
That's why the only RSS feed that I'm

1330
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,660
aware of that actually has an LN address

1331
00:52:33,660 --> 00:52:36,320
value block type is the Fountain Radio RSS

1332
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:36,760
feed.

1333
00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:39,960
So this is, you know, I think it

1334
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:41,240
was last time I was on, actually, we

1335
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:43,680
talked about Fountain Radio, but we've rebuilt it

1336
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,920
now using an HLS stream and it's on

1337
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:47,720
an RSS feed.

1338
00:52:47,820 --> 00:52:49,600
So you can listen to Fountain Radio in

1339
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,980
any of the podcasting 2.0 apps.

1340
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,620
And it looks, it looks really cool, actually,

1341
00:52:53,780 --> 00:52:55,680
especially the ones that support video because we

1342
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:56,640
support video on it.

1343
00:52:57,260 --> 00:53:00,540
But, but yeah, so the Fountain Radio RSS

1344
00:53:00,540 --> 00:53:03,200
feed has the LN address type value blocks.

1345
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,940
So if you're listening to Fountain Radio live

1346
00:53:05,940 --> 00:53:09,800
in Podverse or Podcast Guru, the support payments

1347
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,060
won't work.

1348
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,060
That's why we wanted to put that test

1349
00:53:13,060 --> 00:53:16,340
feed out there to give developers a chance

1350
00:53:16,340 --> 00:53:18,740
to add that payment option.

1351
00:53:19,220 --> 00:53:21,480
And we don't support the LN address type

1352
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:22,360
in Fountain either.

1353
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:23,800
So we need to do this as well.

1354
00:53:23,900 --> 00:53:25,400
And it was a, you know, a test

1355
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,300
case for us as well.

1356
00:53:26,420 --> 00:53:29,380
But my hope is that, you know, that

1357
00:53:29,380 --> 00:53:31,400
feed can be a test case.

1358
00:53:31,580 --> 00:53:33,340
And if others can create test feeds as

1359
00:53:33,340 --> 00:53:34,200
well, that would be great.

1360
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:36,620
And then we can try and like get

1361
00:53:36,620 --> 00:53:38,340
as many of the apps as possible to

1362
00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:41,200
at least have the option of paying those

1363
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,520
types and, you know, work out all of

1364
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,040
the rest of it in terms of like

1365
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,060
the metadata, which is, you know, something that's

1366
00:53:48,060 --> 00:53:49,020
important as well.

1367
00:53:49,180 --> 00:53:51,240
And, and then, yeah, at least we have

1368
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:53,120
a test feed to go and play with

1369
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,920
that no one has listened to up until

1370
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,020
this point, because it didn't exist until, you

1371
00:53:57,020 --> 00:53:57,740
know, last week.

1372
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,900
Well, the, so, yeah, I'm checking in the

1373
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:02,880
RPP is right.

1374
00:54:03,020 --> 00:54:05,220
The index does return the correct.

1375
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:08,280
It's ingesting LN address splits correctly.

1376
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:09,880
So that's good.

1377
00:54:09,980 --> 00:54:16,020
I mean, what, what is your, what is

1378
00:54:16,020 --> 00:54:17,800
your plan for what you're going to win,

1379
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,320
how you're going to transition this in Fountain?

1380
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,280
Yeah, so for the Fountain mobile app, I

1381
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,740
think what we'll do is just support both.

1382
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:33,440
So whenever somebody, you know, sends a payment,

1383
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,440
we check the value block.

1384
00:54:37,020 --> 00:54:40,000
And if it's a keysend value block, we'll,

1385
00:54:40,340 --> 00:54:42,100
you know, send the keysend payment.

1386
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,860
And if it's the newer LN address type

1387
00:54:44,860 --> 00:54:47,880
value block, we will, you know, pay via

1388
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:48,440
Bolt 11.

1389
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,460
And that should be relatively easy.

1390
00:54:51,620 --> 00:54:53,760
And then as, you know, more people switch

1391
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:58,040
over on the hosting side, we can, you

1392
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,940
know, look to deprecate the keysend.

1393
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,720
Before we get deeper into the transition, we're

1394
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:05,300
transitioning.

1395
00:55:07,740 --> 00:55:10,420
The important piece that is still on the

1396
00:55:10,420 --> 00:55:12,540
agenda is the payment information.

1397
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,220
Um, cause you're right.

1398
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,900
Uh, because even in our simple test with

1399
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:21,940
Eric PP boosting me, uh, I got almost,

1400
00:55:21,940 --> 00:55:24,360
almost got all the Jason, but I didn't

1401
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,720
because if you look at the strike, uh,

1402
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,800
strike limits it to 200 characters.

1403
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,940
So there wasn't, you know, the, what the

1404
00:55:32,940 --> 00:55:35,180
only message was test and it still cut

1405
00:55:35,180 --> 00:55:35,680
off everything.

1406
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,280
So, um, that's been, I think the final

1407
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,180
piece is, and it's always, it's always been

1408
00:55:42,180 --> 00:55:44,020
a huge benefit on one hand, I feel

1409
00:55:44,020 --> 00:55:46,860
to have the payment information, uh, being shot

1410
00:55:46,860 --> 00:55:48,880
along as in the TLV record.

1411
00:55:48,980 --> 00:55:50,840
On the other hand, uh, there were limitations

1412
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:51,440
to it.

1413
00:55:52,100 --> 00:55:53,960
Um, it was kind of a kludge if

1414
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:55,040
I recall correctly.

1415
00:55:55,220 --> 00:55:57,760
So now we, we are looking at doing

1416
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:58,700
something different there.

1417
00:55:58,740 --> 00:55:59,720
I think we need to spend a few

1418
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:00,500
minutes on that.

1419
00:56:01,540 --> 00:56:02,680
Yes, definitely.

1420
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:07,020
So, you know, from my perspective, I think

1421
00:56:07,020 --> 00:56:10,800
that decoupling the payment from the metadata just

1422
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,100
has so many benefits.

1423
00:56:13,940 --> 00:56:15,580
Um, and again, it's kind of a separate

1424
00:56:15,580 --> 00:56:18,660
thing to everything that we've talked about, uh,

1425
00:56:18,700 --> 00:56:20,520
so far, like even if we were to

1426
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,540
carry on with key send, I still think

1427
00:56:23,540 --> 00:56:25,880
it would be an amazing idea to separate

1428
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,980
the metadata from the payment because unlike if

1429
00:56:30,980 --> 00:56:32,700
it just like take a step back and

1430
00:56:32,700 --> 00:56:35,020
think about the different things that we've done

1431
00:56:35,020 --> 00:56:37,340
over the past couple of years, you know,

1432
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,860
making the boost public in the fountain app,

1433
00:56:42,380 --> 00:56:45,400
uh, and displaying them under the episodes and

1434
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,740
putting them in the activity feed is something

1435
00:56:48,740 --> 00:56:52,860
that both listeners and podcasters really, really enjoy.

1436
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,760
Um, you know, for listeners, it's great because

1437
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,700
you can see what podcasts the people you

1438
00:56:58,700 --> 00:56:59,940
follow are finding valuable.

1439
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,440
And then for podcasters, it's great because when

1440
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,460
people send a boost, it provides them with

1441
00:57:04,460 --> 00:57:06,220
discovery as well as value.

1442
00:57:07,220 --> 00:57:08,580
Um, and so people have loved that.

1443
00:57:08,780 --> 00:57:11,980
And you know, I think we've always wanted

1444
00:57:11,980 --> 00:57:14,680
to have this cross out, you know, commenting

1445
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,380
ability and fountain has always wanted to pull

1446
00:57:17,380 --> 00:57:19,080
the boost in from the other apps.

1447
00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:21,900
And we've actually tried doing this before, but

1448
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:25,380
the data in the TLVs is just too

1449
00:57:25,380 --> 00:57:28,800
unreliable because we only see the one portion

1450
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:29,840
of the split.

1451
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,380
So, you know, I also think that going

1452
00:57:34,380 --> 00:57:37,680
forward, you know, just separating the payment from

1453
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,280
the metadata and kind of rethinking all of

1454
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,660
that, it opens up a world of possibilities

1455
00:57:43,660 --> 00:57:45,940
in terms of what we can do with

1456
00:57:45,940 --> 00:57:47,560
these payments and what we can do with

1457
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,920
the data, because, you know, we've never really

1458
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,740
had it happen, but the only thing that

1459
00:57:52,740 --> 00:57:54,620
tells you that this payment was sent from

1460
00:57:54,620 --> 00:57:57,000
an app is a string in the TLV,

1461
00:57:57,100 --> 00:57:58,320
which anyone can fake.

1462
00:57:58,580 --> 00:58:01,560
So, you know, you could easily send, you

1463
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:03,840
know, a payment to one of the splits

1464
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,260
in the, in the feed saying that the

1465
00:58:06,260 --> 00:58:08,980
value M sat total was a million sats.

1466
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,380
And then you'd have questions, you know, where's

1467
00:58:11,380 --> 00:58:12,180
the rest of the money?

1468
00:58:13,340 --> 00:58:13,820
Exactly.

1469
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,660
So, but like, I think it would be

1470
00:58:18,660 --> 00:58:21,840
absolutely incredible for podcasting 2.0, if we

1471
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,160
could figure out a way to reliably share

1472
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,680
the payment metadata with between all of the

1473
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:27,060
apps.

1474
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,240
And I also think it paves a way

1475
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:31,120
for cross app comments.

1476
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,420
And I think we should get to cross

1477
00:58:33,420 --> 00:58:37,280
app comments because, you know, I think it's

1478
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:37,700
possible.

1479
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:38,760
I really do think it is.

1480
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:40,940
But anyway, on the payment metadata.

1481
00:58:41,660 --> 00:58:45,980
So I'll just explain the idea that I

1482
00:58:45,980 --> 00:58:46,760
have for this.

1483
00:58:47,060 --> 00:58:49,080
And, you know, I've talked to a couple

1484
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,140
of the guys in, in the podcasting 2

1485
00:58:52,140 --> 00:58:53,560
.0 dot social.

1486
00:58:53,860 --> 00:58:55,860
And like, we've spoken about this.

1487
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,160
So I've like been getting feedback on this.

1488
00:58:58,160 --> 00:58:59,400
And I think it's a good idea.

1489
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,000
But I also want to say that, like,

1490
00:59:01,140 --> 00:59:02,920
I'm open to other ideas as well.

1491
00:59:02,980 --> 00:59:05,140
And whatever people want to do, happy to

1492
00:59:05,140 --> 00:59:05,620
go with it.

1493
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,840
So my idea is to use Nosta to

1494
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,440
transmit the payment data.

1495
00:59:11,980 --> 00:59:14,440
And before you think, oh, no, not Nosta.

1496
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,060
This is not about the social aspect of

1497
00:59:17,060 --> 00:59:17,320
Nosta.

1498
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,000
There's no profiles involved.

1499
00:59:19,260 --> 00:59:20,020
There's none of that.

1500
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,280
You don't need a Nosta account to use

1501
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:22,580
this.

1502
00:59:23,060 --> 00:59:26,600
It's just about using the signing capability of

1503
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,600
Nosta to allow apps to share the payments

1504
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:30,240
with each other.

1505
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,200
So as Fountain, we can sign a message

1506
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,780
with our private key, send that out to

1507
00:59:35,780 --> 00:59:36,400
everybody else.

1508
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,500
And people can kind of trust that based

1509
00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:39,640
on the reputation of Fountain.

1510
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,280
You know, Fountain will trust the podverse pub

1511
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,440
key, the podcast guru pub key, the true

1512
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:46,300
fans pub key.

1513
00:59:47,740 --> 00:59:49,500
So I think, you know, Nosta is just

1514
00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:51,240
a public message bus.

1515
00:59:51,540 --> 00:59:54,380
And we can put the metadata about these

1516
00:59:54,380 --> 00:59:56,280
payments in Nosta events.

1517
00:59:56,740 --> 00:59:59,100
We can broadcast them, anyone can query them,

1518
00:59:59,180 --> 01:00:01,000
and we can trust them because we trust

1519
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,260
the apps based on the reputation.

1520
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:09,040
And also, you know, Nosta is great for

1521
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,640
this scenario in that it is actually changeable,

1522
01:00:11,820 --> 01:00:14,420
like we have the ability to, to, you

1523
01:00:14,420 --> 01:00:16,740
know, create what we want, rather than having

1524
01:00:16,740 --> 01:00:19,020
to like fudge our way into some existing

1525
01:00:19,020 --> 01:00:19,600
system.

1526
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:22,440
So I've come up with a structure for

1527
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:22,840
this.

1528
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,520
And I've just called it the Nosta generic

1529
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:26,380
payment event.

1530
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,820
And you can go and look at an

1531
01:00:28,820 --> 01:00:31,480
example of this on the on the on

1532
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,280
the demo website, if you send a payment

1533
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,200
on a demo website, it will generate one

1534
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,260
of these and you can see all of

1535
01:00:37,260 --> 01:00:40,440
the details that our relay is also accepting

1536
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:41,020
these events.

1537
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:42,840
So you can query our relay for them.

1538
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,220
And in this payment event, you have all

1539
01:00:46,220 --> 01:00:48,180
of the metadata about the payment, you have

1540
01:00:48,180 --> 01:00:50,540
all the podcast goods and the information about

1541
01:00:50,540 --> 01:00:52,620
the podcast, so you can figure out, you

1542
01:00:52,620 --> 01:00:54,840
know, what actually was getting paid.

1543
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,960
So that's the idea for how to share

1544
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:00,080
the payment metadata.

1545
01:01:01,180 --> 01:01:03,260
And then the second part of this is,

1546
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,180
if we're using bolt 11, and we only

1547
01:01:06,180 --> 01:01:10,600
have 200 characters of space, you know, what

1548
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,080
do we do, because a lot of people

1549
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,000
want to send, you know, 500 character plus

1550
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,920
boost, you know, that's already a limitation of

1551
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:19,520
the key send TLV, because we can't go

1552
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:20,260
higher than that.

1553
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,700
So, so the other part of this, and

1554
01:01:23,700 --> 01:01:27,000
again, the reason why I think NOS is

1555
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,100
a great solution is because it just has

1556
01:01:29,100 --> 01:01:32,060
these amazing primitives, these amazing like building blocks.

1557
01:01:32,220 --> 01:01:36,800
So one of them is called NIT19 encoded

1558
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:38,120
values.

1559
01:01:38,740 --> 01:01:41,600
And this actually uses the same TLV encoding

1560
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,120
as the key send TLVs.

1561
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,680
What it does is allow you to take

1562
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:49,140
essentially the key information about one of these

1563
01:01:49,140 --> 01:01:51,780
payment events and encode it as a short

1564
01:01:51,780 --> 01:01:52,160
string.

1565
01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:55,200
So again, this is available on the demo

1566
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:55,560
site.

1567
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,480
And you can see that when you send

1568
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:02,100
a payment, the encoded string is created, and

1569
01:02:02,100 --> 01:02:04,380
it's put into the bolt 11 memo, and

1570
01:02:04,380 --> 01:02:05,720
there's enough space for it.

1571
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,340
And inside that encoded string, you have all

1572
01:02:10,340 --> 01:02:12,600
of the information you need to find that

1573
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:12,980
event.

1574
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,000
So you have the unique ID of the

1575
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:15,340
event.

1576
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,680
You also have the pub key who published

1577
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:18,940
it.

1578
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,280
So you can say straight away, okay, this

1579
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:22,780
is from fountain, I'm going to fetch the

1580
01:02:22,780 --> 01:02:24,620
event because I trust the fountain pub key.

1581
01:02:24,780 --> 01:02:26,660
I've never seen this pub key before, I'm

1582
01:02:26,660 --> 01:02:28,100
not even going to bother fetching it or

1583
01:02:28,100 --> 01:02:28,680
showing it.

1584
01:02:29,100 --> 01:02:30,920
And then you also have the relay where

1585
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:32,540
that event is located.

1586
01:02:33,180 --> 01:02:35,860
So you just that one short string.

1587
01:02:36,580 --> 01:02:37,420
Yeah, the relay.

1588
01:02:37,620 --> 01:02:37,920
That's good.

1589
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:38,360
That's good.

1590
01:02:39,220 --> 01:02:42,480
From helipads from whatever app you're on, all

1591
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,500
you need is that string, which fits in

1592
01:02:44,500 --> 01:02:46,300
a bolt 11 invoice, and then you can

1593
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:49,140
pull back the entire payment metadata.

1594
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:51,920
So I think this is a really good

1595
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:52,640
solution.

1596
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,540
And what you'd actually see, and we've got

1597
01:02:54,540 --> 01:02:56,000
this hooked up to the strike wallet.

1598
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,540
So you know, if someone sends a payment

1599
01:02:58,540 --> 01:03:01,500
now on the demo site, what I will

1600
01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:04,020
see in my strike wallet is I'll just

1601
01:03:04,020 --> 01:03:07,900
see the header podcasting 2.0 payment, and

1602
01:03:07,900 --> 01:03:10,220
then there'll be a link to this pod

1603
01:03:10,220 --> 01:03:13,180
bay.org slash p slash the n address

1604
01:03:13,180 --> 01:03:13,540
one.

1605
01:03:13,660 --> 01:03:16,180
Now the really important thing to understand about

1606
01:03:16,180 --> 01:03:19,300
this is anyone can create these links, it

1607
01:03:19,300 --> 01:03:21,540
doesn't have to be like this domain that

1608
01:03:21,540 --> 01:03:23,520
I've set up as a test, we could

1609
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:25,840
put this on podcast index, each app could

1610
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:27,780
have their own version of it like it

1611
01:03:27,780 --> 01:03:29,620
because all that really matters is the n

1612
01:03:29,620 --> 01:03:30,040
address.

1613
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,160
And that tells you like how to find

1614
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:33,740
the event.

1615
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,540
And that's a way that we can kind

1616
01:03:36,540 --> 01:03:39,460
of highlight to Okay, I have a strike

1617
01:03:39,460 --> 01:03:40,240
lightning address.

1618
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:41,660
And I see all these payments coming.

1619
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,680
And I'm like, what are these payments, I'll

1620
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,100
just be able to click on the link

1621
01:03:45,100 --> 01:03:47,260
from my strike wallet, it will take me

1622
01:03:47,260 --> 01:03:49,140
out to the page where it will show

1623
01:03:49,140 --> 01:03:50,860
me all the information about the payment.

1624
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:52,980
Obviously, at the moment on the demo site,

1625
01:03:53,540 --> 01:03:56,160
it's just you know, the JSON just to

1626
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:57,240
highlight how it works.

1627
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:59,800
But you can imagine in the future, you

1628
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,720
know, that's a bit more styled, it's got

1629
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,940
the information about like which app it came

1630
01:04:03,940 --> 01:04:05,620
from all of that information.

1631
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,660
So yeah, that's, that's my view on how

1632
01:04:08,660 --> 01:04:10,900
we should do this, we should share these

1633
01:04:10,900 --> 01:04:14,080
signed payment events between the apps, we can

1634
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:15,760
trust each other based on reputation.

1635
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:18,420
And then for the memo field of the

1636
01:04:18,420 --> 01:04:21,640
bolt 11 invoice, we can put these, you

1637
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:25,480
know, encoded links into the memo field, which

1638
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,820
can link out to the full payment details,

1639
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,660
philosophical issue, which came up over this.

1640
01:04:33,540 --> 01:04:35,720
Up until now, the only people who could

1641
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:37,980
receive and see the messages would be the

1642
01:04:37,980 --> 01:04:40,280
people who are in the value block split,

1643
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,900
which I've always countered by saying, well, it

1644
01:04:43,900 --> 01:04:46,680
seems like fountain is showing all of these

1645
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,260
that are coming from fountain, I personally have

1646
01:04:49,260 --> 01:04:51,440
found I've talked about before, I found that

1647
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,640
nice, I liked it.

1648
01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:55,940
And it can people can then comment and

1649
01:04:55,940 --> 01:04:57,080
do other things with it.

1650
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,300
But in general, that's always been private.

1651
01:05:01,300 --> 01:05:03,160
And so that always comes up as well.

1652
01:05:03,260 --> 01:05:03,880
Hold on a second.

1653
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,520
Now everybody, for some, although it was never

1654
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:07,840
really intended that way.

1655
01:05:08,060 --> 01:05:12,460
The payment information, the the message that was

1656
01:05:12,460 --> 01:05:15,600
sent along with the payment was semi private,

1657
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,180
because you know, only if you receive the

1658
01:05:18,180 --> 01:05:19,280
payment, would you see it?

1659
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,380
So the philosophical question is, is there an

1660
01:05:23,380 --> 01:05:25,660
issue in general amongst the community of this

1661
01:05:25,660 --> 01:05:27,040
being now open?

1662
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,680
I personally like it, because then people can

1663
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,120
start to build new applications, new thoughts, new

1664
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,880
ideas, based upon this of things we haven't

1665
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,460
thought up yet, some things we can already

1666
01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:37,960
think up.

1667
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,180
Where do we stand with that just as

1668
01:05:41,180 --> 01:05:42,200
a as a group?

1669
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,900
Yeah, so I think, again, what's great about

1670
01:05:46,900 --> 01:05:48,900
Nosta is we have these building blocks.

1671
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:53,060
And, for example, there's another Nosta NIP that

1672
01:05:53,060 --> 01:05:54,940
allows you to do this thing called gift

1673
01:05:54,940 --> 01:05:57,760
wrap, which allows you to basically encrypt the

1674
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:58,120
event.

1675
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:03,220
So, you know, I think, we don't want

1676
01:06:03,220 --> 01:06:06,960
to overcomplicate this, this potential change if it

1677
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:08,080
does go in this direction.

1678
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,640
But there is definitely ways that you could

1679
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,400
create one of those like payment links that

1680
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,180
is only readable by the receiver, because you

1681
01:06:18,180 --> 01:06:19,140
would encrypt it.

1682
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:23,240
And then only the receiver with the receiving

1683
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,360
kind of key could actually, you know, unwrap

1684
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:28,660
it and view the metadata.

1685
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,580
So there's definitely ways that if people want

1686
01:06:32,580 --> 01:06:35,720
to, they can, you know, create a different

1687
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,620
version of one of these encoded payment events,

1688
01:06:38,940 --> 01:06:42,240
and have it only readable by the person

1689
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:46,040
that received that link, as opposed to it

1690
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,700
being, you know, publicly accessible by everyone.

1691
01:06:49,220 --> 01:06:51,840
And that's actually, you know, better than what

1692
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:52,700
we currently have.

1693
01:06:52,820 --> 01:06:56,500
Because again, you know, if the splits are,

1694
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,340
you know, open by the TLV, then you

1695
01:06:59,340 --> 01:07:00,680
can always kind of read it if you're

1696
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:01,320
in the splits.

1697
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:03,860
But I also want to back up a

1698
01:07:03,860 --> 01:07:08,940
little bit to your description of the payment

1699
01:07:08,940 --> 01:07:14,320
proof because, you know, you, so what, let

1700
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:17,360
me just kind of rephrase or reframe the

1701
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:18,380
process here.

1702
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:25,860
The payment happens, the splits get paid.

1703
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,660
And let's say that there's three splits, they

1704
01:07:29,660 --> 01:07:31,560
each have a Bolt 11 invoice that gets

1705
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:31,960
paid.

1706
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:38,160
There's a payment proof, which is going to

1707
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:43,960
be a signed event that is created by

1708
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:49,480
the sending app and gets put on, in

1709
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,240
this case, on Nostra Relay as an event.

1710
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,720
And then a link to that event, a

1711
01:07:56,720 --> 01:08:01,080
public link to that event is included as

1712
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:05,040
a URL in the memo field of the

1713
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,260
Bolt 11 invoice when it gets paid.

1714
01:08:08,260 --> 01:08:12,740
And then, like, as of right now, you

1715
01:08:12,740 --> 01:08:15,720
can just click that invoice and just to

1716
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:18,560
display the JSON of that.

1717
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,960
So that all feels good, except the, not

1718
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,020
except, I mean, but in addition, I guess

1719
01:08:27,020 --> 01:08:32,380
I would say that you, this is all

1720
01:08:32,380 --> 01:08:35,100
up to the sending app.

1721
01:08:35,180 --> 01:08:38,060
So the sending app can do whatever it

1722
01:08:38,060 --> 01:08:41,140
wants with this payment proof.

1723
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:46,399
So the payment proof, you are signing a

1724
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:48,620
Nostra event and then sticking it, like for

1725
01:08:48,620 --> 01:08:52,420
fountains, for this example demo app, I'm assuming

1726
01:08:52,420 --> 01:08:54,000
you're putting this on the fountain relay.

1727
01:08:54,220 --> 01:08:54,660
Is that right?

1728
01:08:55,020 --> 01:08:55,160
Yeah.

1729
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:55,740
Yeah.

1730
01:08:55,819 --> 01:08:56,040
Okay.

1731
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:58,660
And so then, but if you're a different

1732
01:08:58,660 --> 01:09:03,500
app that doesn't have like a Nostra infrastructure

1733
01:09:03,500 --> 01:09:05,840
or whatever, you could send this in some

1734
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:06,800
other forum.

1735
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:08,700
I mean, you don't have to stick this

1736
01:09:08,700 --> 01:09:08,960
on that.

1737
01:09:09,020 --> 01:09:10,040
You could put it out there as an

1738
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,939
activity pub event or whatever, as long as

1739
01:09:13,939 --> 01:09:18,920
it's somewhere accessible to the end user and

1740
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:20,319
it follows this format.

1741
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:21,859
It's just JSON.

1742
01:09:22,420 --> 01:09:25,640
So you could, you know, you could parse

1743
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:27,160
this no matter where it's at.

1744
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,640
You could just put these as, as HTML

1745
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:30,479
input.

1746
01:09:30,620 --> 01:09:36,020
I mean, HTML outputs, like, no, I'm sorry.

1747
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:37,340
I'm losing my mind.

1748
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:40,479
Not HTML, like HTTP accessible events.

1749
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:41,960
They could just go on as just JSON

1750
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:43,939
documents on an object storage somewhere.

1751
01:09:44,890 --> 01:09:45,819
Yeah, exactly.

1752
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:52,359
The creation and signing of these payment receipts

1753
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:56,220
that the apps sign and the distribution of

1754
01:09:56,220 --> 01:09:57,920
them are kind of separate.

1755
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:01,100
You don't have to broadcast them to the

1756
01:10:01,100 --> 01:10:01,800
Nostra network.

1757
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:05,360
You could just, you know, have them, you

1758
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:09,120
know, be in one particular place or you

1759
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:11,680
could have them sent around privately if you

1760
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:12,300
wanted to.

1761
01:10:13,300 --> 01:10:13,820
Yeah.

1762
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,140
So, I mean, I think, should that be

1763
01:10:17,140 --> 01:10:18,000
in the spec though?

1764
01:10:18,820 --> 01:10:20,260
I mean, I guess what I'm asking is,

1765
01:10:20,340 --> 01:10:22,600
should it be in the spec somewhere that,

1766
01:10:23,460 --> 01:10:27,480
okay, the payment proof needs to be, if

1767
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:30,100
it's going to be a publicly accessible payment

1768
01:10:30,100 --> 01:10:33,720
proof, it needs to be in the Bolt

1769
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,360
11 memo field.

1770
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,260
I don't know that that's spelled out in

1771
01:10:37,260 --> 01:10:38,120
the spec anywhere.

1772
01:10:40,060 --> 01:10:41,680
You're doing it, but I don't know that

1773
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:43,940
it's actually in the spec as written.

1774
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:46,700
None of this is in the spec.

1775
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:49,580
So, yeah, I guess, like, this is just

1776
01:10:49,580 --> 01:10:50,180
an idea.

1777
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,780
And, you know, I've spoken to a few

1778
01:10:52,780 --> 01:10:55,580
of the guys on this and got good

1779
01:10:55,580 --> 01:10:56,460
feedback from it.

1780
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,040
So, this is very much me saying, like,

1781
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:00,720
here's how I think it could work.

1782
01:11:01,420 --> 01:11:03,420
And people can play around with it.

1783
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:04,980
The code's open source.

1784
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:06,260
You know, the demo's there.

1785
01:11:06,580 --> 01:11:08,700
People can play around with it, you know,

1786
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:10,760
and we can keep discussing it.

1787
01:11:10,860 --> 01:11:12,640
And this doesn't have to be the final

1788
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:13,620
thing that we end on.

1789
01:11:13,660 --> 01:11:14,780
It's just kind of an idea.

1790
01:11:15,500 --> 01:11:18,000
But I think, I mean, I think it

1791
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,180
kind of is the final thing that we

1792
01:11:19,180 --> 01:11:21,260
end on because you, I don't think that

1793
01:11:21,260 --> 01:11:22,880
there is any other way or any other

1794
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:23,840
place to put it.

1795
01:11:24,340 --> 01:11:26,380
I mean, like, you're just putting the URL

1796
01:11:26,380 --> 01:11:28,160
in there to the payment proof.

1797
01:11:28,940 --> 01:11:31,540
And it could be that you put something

1798
01:11:31,540 --> 01:11:32,180
else.

1799
01:11:32,980 --> 01:11:34,360
It could be that you put some other

1800
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,100
type of link in there to the payment

1801
01:11:36,100 --> 01:11:36,520
proof.

1802
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:40,500
But having the payment proof linked to in

1803
01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:42,140
the payment itself.

1804
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:43,960
Yeah, that's the way.

1805
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:46,180
Yeah, I don't see any other way to

1806
01:11:46,180 --> 01:11:46,660
do it.

1807
01:11:47,100 --> 01:11:47,260
Yeah.

1808
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,240
And the cool thing about this is, is

1809
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,180
it's not just a replacement for what we

1810
01:11:51,180 --> 01:11:54,040
have, but we get more information because you're

1811
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,980
seeing, like, the one step above, like the,

1812
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,900
you know, you're not just seeing your split,

1813
01:12:00,900 --> 01:12:02,080
you're seeing the whole thing.

1814
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:04,880
Yeah.

1815
01:12:05,060 --> 01:12:05,280
Okay.

1816
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:05,580
Yeah.

1817
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,800
So you're, you, what you're just, what you

1818
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:11,360
just said was that when you see the

1819
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:13,480
payment proof being linked to is the payment

1820
01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:16,260
proof for the sort of payment writ large,

1821
01:12:16,260 --> 01:12:18,740
it's not for that particular split necessarily.

1822
01:12:19,420 --> 01:12:19,900
Yeah.

1823
01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:23,580
And that preserves the sort of the integrity

1824
01:12:23,580 --> 01:12:25,940
of the numerology and all of that.

1825
01:12:25,940 --> 01:12:27,040
Yes, yes, exactly.

1826
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:29,340
Because this is exactly right.

1827
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:31,320
Because the problem that we were having before,

1828
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,020
and we had to remove this feature because

1829
01:12:34,020 --> 01:12:36,840
this was happening was what we would receive

1830
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:37,400
a split.

1831
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:39,580
We would receive a payment to our boost

1832
01:12:39,580 --> 01:12:42,120
bot at fountain.fm split, which was like

1833
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:43,080
a 1%.

1834
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:44,880
Because we said, okay, put us in the

1835
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:47,160
splits and we'll create the boost and display

1836
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:48,580
them from other apps as well.

1837
01:12:49,020 --> 01:12:51,000
And then we would have these, you know,

1838
01:12:51,100 --> 01:12:53,260
big boosts come in from other apps, but

1839
01:12:53,260 --> 01:12:55,280
one of the other splits would have failed.

1840
01:12:56,140 --> 01:12:57,980
And so we would display, we would be

1841
01:12:57,980 --> 01:13:00,560
displaying a 200,000 sat boost, but actually

1842
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:01,740
the main split failed.

1843
01:13:02,140 --> 01:13:04,140
And so that podcaster didn't get any money.

1844
01:13:04,300 --> 01:13:06,160
And then we would be like, that would

1845
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:07,820
be going into our chart system.

1846
01:13:07,980 --> 01:13:09,240
And so it just wasn't reliable.

1847
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:12,140
But what's really cool about these events as

1848
01:13:12,140 --> 01:13:13,400
well, exactly.

1849
01:13:13,940 --> 01:13:15,860
What's really cool about these events as well

1850
01:13:15,860 --> 01:13:17,540
is they're replaceable events.

1851
01:13:17,980 --> 01:13:19,720
So, you know, I won't get into how

1852
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:21,820
they work on Nosta, but they're really simple.

1853
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,980
Essentially you can publish new versions of the

1854
01:13:24,980 --> 01:13:27,680
event and that address link that goes in

1855
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,700
the memo field that doesn't change.

1856
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,920
It's just the actual event that changes and

1857
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:35,220
the D tag, which is the unique ID

1858
01:13:35,220 --> 01:13:37,220
for the payment that stays the same.

1859
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,920
And so what this means is as soon

1860
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:41,800
as someone sends a boost in the app,

1861
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:43,500
you can generate one of these, you can

1862
01:13:43,500 --> 01:13:44,300
send it out there.

1863
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:46,940
But then if, you know, a bit further

1864
01:13:46,940 --> 01:13:48,940
down the line, you have a payment error

1865
01:13:48,940 --> 01:13:51,360
on one of the splits, you can publish

1866
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:53,660
a new version of this event to say

1867
01:13:53,660 --> 01:13:55,860
that actually, no, like the amount wasn't that

1868
01:13:55,860 --> 01:13:57,300
much, it was a lower amount.

1869
01:13:57,460 --> 01:13:59,500
So it also gives you that flexibility to

1870
01:13:59,500 --> 01:14:02,500
be able to, you know, handle payment errors

1871
01:14:02,500 --> 01:14:05,120
and, you know, like changes to the payment.

1872
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:07,640
Let me rephrase again what you just said

1873
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:10,020
for, let me translate it into human.

1874
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:12,920
So what you're saying, what you're saying is

1875
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:16,120
that, let's say I have a split, a

1876
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:18,800
three-way, let's say I have a value

1877
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:20,160
block with three splits in it.

1878
01:14:21,420 --> 01:14:25,640
And the share is, you know, 33, 33,

1879
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:26,040
33.

1880
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:32,800
Then a hundred set boost goes out and

1881
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,740
each recipient is going to get 33 sets.

1882
01:14:38,060 --> 01:14:42,080
And initially the event may go out now,

1883
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:43,700
whether it's going out to Nostra or just

1884
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:45,380
being published in some other way as a

1885
01:14:45,380 --> 01:14:46,460
static file.

1886
01:14:47,580 --> 01:14:50,820
The initial payment proof is going to reflect

1887
01:14:51,700 --> 01:14:56,600
a 99 set boost and, or, you know,

1888
01:14:56,980 --> 01:14:59,040
whatever, however you calculate that is going to

1889
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:00,620
reflect 99.

1890
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:03,580
Then if one of the splits failed, you

1891
01:15:03,580 --> 01:15:05,620
could go back and revise that to, okay,

1892
01:15:05,700 --> 01:15:07,800
wait, no, the total was 66 instead.

1893
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:10,880
And that payment proof comes back.

1894
01:15:11,060 --> 01:15:13,080
The payment proof gets changed after the fact

1895
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:16,220
to reflect reality instead of what we thought

1896
01:15:16,220 --> 01:15:16,660
happened.

1897
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:18,040
Exactly.

1898
01:15:19,060 --> 01:15:19,300
Okay.

1899
01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:19,940
All right.

1900
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:21,020
Yeah.

1901
01:15:21,060 --> 01:15:22,680
No, I mean, this, this all makes, this

1902
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:23,620
all makes sense.

1903
01:15:24,340 --> 01:15:26,280
I mean, this all just, this all makes

1904
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:26,980
a lot of sense.

1905
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:28,820
And of course, and then you have this

1906
01:15:28,820 --> 01:15:31,320
idea, well, then you have the idea also

1907
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:39,780
that the, okay, well, let me, let me

1908
01:15:39,780 --> 01:15:40,580
say one more thing.

1909
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,320
So the, if you can't, you know, we're

1910
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,240
describing a thing that I'm looking at on

1911
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:47,540
the screen right now, a JSON structure that

1912
01:15:47,540 --> 01:15:48,760
is the payment proof.

1913
01:15:49,480 --> 01:15:51,760
We're just, we're, I'm describing this thing that

1914
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:53,440
I'm looking at, but if you can't see

1915
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:56,540
it, it's a JSON structure that has a

1916
01:15:56,540 --> 01:15:57,700
lot of the payment information in it.

1917
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:00,200
But then there's also one section of this

1918
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:03,300
structure that is a metadata section.

1919
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:05,680
And that is where the traditional, what we've

1920
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:07,800
been using before the TLV, what we've always

1921
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,240
said is, you know, we just refer to

1922
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,760
it as the quote TLV record, which has

1923
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:19,280
like the action equals boost, which the podcast

1924
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:22,760
index ID, the feed URL, episode ID, all

1925
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,460
these different episode, all these different pieces of

1926
01:16:25,460 --> 01:16:30,020
metadata about the podcast being, being boosted, all

1927
01:16:30,020 --> 01:16:33,140
that stuff goes into this, into this field

1928
01:16:33,140 --> 01:16:34,780
in this event called metadata.

1929
01:16:35,020 --> 01:16:37,200
So all that stuff can go, all that

1930
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,060
stuff is preserved, but you're going to have

1931
01:16:40,060 --> 01:16:41,740
to have access to the payment proof to

1932
01:16:41,740 --> 01:16:42,320
see it.

1933
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:48,760
And then if you don't have the payment

1934
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:50,920
proof, if it's not provided in the memo,

1935
01:16:51,460 --> 01:16:55,460
well, then you just, you're not going to,

1936
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:57,560
you're just going to assume that you're going

1937
01:16:57,560 --> 01:16:59,660
to assume that the sender can't, has no

1938
01:16:59,660 --> 01:17:02,520
way of proving that you can, you still,

1939
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,440
you still don't know how many stats you

1940
01:17:04,440 --> 01:17:07,760
got, but you can't include that payment in

1941
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:12,320
some sort of like a public thing, or

1942
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:16,260
you, you can't, it's not, that payment has

1943
01:17:16,260 --> 01:17:19,460
told you by the absence of its payment

1944
01:17:19,460 --> 01:17:23,760
proof record that it has either, that it's

1945
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:30,220
either fake or that it just does simply

1946
01:17:30,220 --> 01:17:31,880
doesn't have a way to prove itself.

1947
01:17:31,900 --> 01:17:34,120
Like it doesn't have a publicly accessible system

1948
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:36,820
that it's hooked into to provide the payment

1949
01:17:36,820 --> 01:17:37,220
proof.

1950
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:41,220
So, I mean, this all just makes sense

1951
01:17:41,220 --> 01:17:42,060
to me.

1952
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:43,680
Yeah.

1953
01:17:43,860 --> 01:17:46,180
And the cool thing is as well, is

1954
01:17:46,180 --> 01:17:48,440
there's two additional things about the way that

1955
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:49,240
this is structured.

1956
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,580
The first is because the way NOSTA works,

1957
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:57,020
you can query on the single letter tags.

1958
01:17:57,700 --> 01:18:00,520
And so the GUIDs are actually not in

1959
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:03,260
the metadata, they're in their own tags in

1960
01:18:03,260 --> 01:18:04,060
the I tag.

1961
01:18:04,380 --> 01:18:06,840
And that way you can query all the

1962
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:11,140
payments for a specific feed, a specific item,

1963
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:14,360
which applies to episodes and tracks or a

1964
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:15,720
publisher as well.

1965
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:20,240
So that means that, you know, for one

1966
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,660
app to say, give me all the payments

1967
01:18:22,660 --> 01:18:25,440
for this episode in the last 30 days,

1968
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,280
it's literally one WebSocket query, and it's really

1969
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:29,680
easy.

1970
01:18:30,300 --> 01:18:33,440
And then the metadata is because it's just

1971
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:37,240
like a JSON encoded thing is extensible.

1972
01:18:37,540 --> 01:18:41,200
So, you know, if in two years, something,

1973
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:44,640
you know, there's some additional metadata that we

1974
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:46,740
want to put in there that would make

1975
01:18:46,740 --> 01:18:48,820
this all much more useful, all of this

1976
01:18:48,820 --> 01:18:52,000
data, then we can just update that metadata.

1977
01:18:53,500 --> 01:18:55,480
We should probably put a link to this

1978
01:18:55,480 --> 01:18:57,520
payment proof in.

1979
01:18:58,140 --> 01:18:59,300
Yeah, it's in the show notes.

1980
01:18:59,300 --> 01:18:59,940
In the show notes.

1981
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:01,280
Yeah, I got it in already.

1982
01:19:02,140 --> 01:19:02,680
Okay, cool.

1983
01:19:03,460 --> 01:19:04,840
So how do we transition?

1984
01:19:05,220 --> 01:19:06,340
What is the best way?

1985
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,300
I mean, I heard Oscar say that, you

1986
01:19:09,300 --> 01:19:12,000
know, they'll, they'll look at Ellen, because, you

1987
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:16,040
know, I currently don't really have an easy

1988
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:18,220
way to create an Ellen address.

1989
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,480
But I do have a strike wallet.

1990
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,140
You know, so is it do we just

1991
01:19:27,140 --> 01:19:29,340
rip the bandaid off and go full bore?

1992
01:19:29,580 --> 01:19:32,360
Or I mean, I'm the transition part is

1993
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:33,620
a little fuzzy to me still.

1994
01:19:35,500 --> 01:19:39,400
I think that I think we shouldn't rip

1995
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,940
the bandaid off immediately, because I think that

1996
01:19:44,820 --> 01:19:47,980
there's still like, we can use some test

1997
01:19:47,980 --> 01:19:51,000
feeds, like the fountain radio feed, you know,

1998
01:19:51,020 --> 01:19:52,920
if anyone else wants to create a test

1999
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:56,280
feed with the new Ellen address, and just

2000
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,340
give everyone, you know, a week or so

2001
01:19:59,340 --> 01:20:02,120
to just get their head around this, play

2002
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,680
around with it, send some test payments, have

2003
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:08,620
different combinations of splits, and just kind of

2004
01:20:08,620 --> 01:20:10,460
make sure that's all working.

2005
01:20:11,380 --> 01:20:14,060
And then maybe we can try and like,

2006
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,840
you know, because well, I'll give you a

2007
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,220
great example, like all of the podcasters that

2008
01:20:19,220 --> 01:20:23,120
use fountain to receive, you know, we'll have

2009
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:25,440
a decision to make on when to update

2010
01:20:25,440 --> 01:20:26,820
all of those value blocks.

2011
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:29,040
And I definitely wouldn't want to do that

2012
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:31,880
until, you know, I've at least heard back

2013
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:35,760
from, you know, everyone, all the app developers

2014
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:38,160
on, you know, what they think of this,

2015
01:20:38,380 --> 01:20:40,900
and whether they're playing around with it, or

2016
01:20:40,900 --> 01:20:42,740
I think we should give it at least

2017
01:20:42,740 --> 01:20:45,240
a few weeks of people just having time

2018
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,220
to look through the code that I've produced,

2019
01:20:47,220 --> 01:20:49,580
look through the page with all of the

2020
01:20:49,580 --> 01:20:50,300
demo data.

2021
01:20:50,660 --> 01:20:53,840
And like, basically what we've talked about today,

2022
01:20:53,980 --> 01:20:56,380
but in text form, and we can kind

2023
01:20:56,380 --> 01:20:59,520
of just continue the conversation on podcast index

2024
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:01,460
dot social to make sure we haven't missed

2025
01:21:01,460 --> 01:21:01,940
anything.

2026
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:09,280
And, and the, the somebody, you know, somebody

2027
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:12,700
really could create a key sent to bolt

2028
01:21:12,700 --> 01:21:14,000
11 gateway.

2029
01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:16,420
You know what I mean?

2030
01:21:16,820 --> 01:21:19,480
I mean, that would be like the, you

2031
01:21:19,480 --> 01:21:21,140
know, that would be something that Brian of

2032
01:21:21,140 --> 01:21:24,240
London would probably attempt to do since it's

2033
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:26,360
very Rube Goldberg, but it could, it could

2034
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:26,900
be done.

2035
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:27,920
It could be done.

2036
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:28,460
That's funny.

2037
01:21:29,380 --> 01:21:29,700
Yeah.

2038
01:21:32,460 --> 01:21:32,900
Wow.

2039
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:33,480
Okay.

2040
01:21:33,740 --> 01:21:35,800
I feel like for the first time in

2041
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:36,900
two years, I need a cigarette.

2042
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:42,380
That's a, that's a lot.

2043
01:21:42,700 --> 01:21:42,860
Yeah.

2044
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:45,440
There's a lot there, but, but I feel

2045
01:21:45,440 --> 01:21:48,060
like, well, you said, you know, when do

2046
01:21:48,060 --> 01:21:49,020
we rip the bandaid off?

2047
01:21:49,620 --> 01:21:52,820
I mean, on January 5th, there is no,

2048
01:21:52,940 --> 01:21:54,820
there is no, there is no more bandaid.

2049
01:21:54,900 --> 01:21:55,020
Yeah.

2050
01:21:55,020 --> 01:21:56,000
The bandaid is gone.

2051
01:21:56,100 --> 01:21:56,400
Right.

2052
01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:56,740
Exactly.

2053
01:21:57,700 --> 01:21:59,440
What if I told you there was no

2054
01:21:59,440 --> 01:21:59,920
bandaid?

2055
01:21:59,980 --> 01:22:05,180
I mean, that's really what kind of where

2056
01:22:05,180 --> 01:22:05,880
we're at.

2057
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:11,080
So this is where here, my feeling is

2058
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:15,820
we're at the perfect time to break stuff

2059
01:22:15,820 --> 01:22:19,820
because the things, the people who, the people

2060
01:22:19,820 --> 01:22:22,880
who are in a position where, and that

2061
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:29,300
would be like you, Oscar, Sam, the people

2062
01:22:29,300 --> 01:22:32,200
who are in a position to be affected

2063
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:35,920
the most, I'll be as well to people

2064
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:37,340
who are in a position to be the

2065
01:22:37,340 --> 01:22:40,820
affected the most financially by a bandaid, a

2066
01:22:40,820 --> 01:22:44,700
bandaid rip are the people who also happen

2067
01:22:44,700 --> 01:22:47,280
to be the most equipped to handle these

2068
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:47,720
changes.

2069
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:48,380
True.

2070
01:22:48,620 --> 01:22:50,940
So, you know, I mean, found on, on

2071
01:22:50,940 --> 01:22:54,300
fountain, you control, you control the, the listener

2072
01:22:54,300 --> 01:22:57,600
side and the, and most of the podcaster

2073
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,820
side saying, you know, Sam is, has sort

2074
01:23:00,820 --> 01:23:04,600
of like wrapped his infrastructure with, with the,

2075
01:23:04,860 --> 01:23:08,000
with his own sort of payment paradigm.

2076
01:23:08,940 --> 01:23:11,980
I'll be also controls so much of their

2077
01:23:11,980 --> 01:23:12,840
own infrastructure.

2078
01:23:13,180 --> 01:23:16,060
So I think the bandaid rip is really

2079
01:23:16,060 --> 01:23:19,860
going to be, it's, it's less of a

2080
01:23:19,860 --> 01:23:21,580
bandaid rip and more of like a, you

2081
01:23:21,580 --> 01:23:24,320
know, the bandaid is just going to get

2082
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:26,400
old one day and shrivel up and fall

2083
01:23:26,400 --> 01:23:26,780
off.

2084
01:23:27,020 --> 01:23:28,920
The analogies are awesome, Dave.

2085
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:29,960
Really good.

2086
01:23:30,180 --> 01:23:30,280
Yeah.

2087
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:33,360
I mean, do you agree with that Oscar?

2088
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:35,440
Yeah, definitely.

2089
01:23:35,700 --> 01:23:37,320
And I think the other thing is like,

2090
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:40,980
if, you know, I, I know with Albie

2091
01:23:40,980 --> 01:23:44,480
making this change, you know, this kind of

2092
01:23:44,480 --> 01:23:47,080
like, you have to think about what you're

2093
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:49,540
going to do, you know, from having one,

2094
01:23:49,540 --> 01:23:54,320
um, set of APIs with Albie, you might

2095
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:57,580
now have to have two, like one with

2096
01:23:57,580 --> 01:24:00,260
strike off and the other with Albie for

2097
01:24:00,260 --> 01:24:02,360
the people that want to continue using Albie

2098
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:02,660
hub.

2099
01:24:02,660 --> 01:24:05,180
But like the cool thing about this is

2100
01:24:05,180 --> 01:24:09,320
Albie, all of their APIs, as Boomi said,

2101
01:24:09,460 --> 01:24:12,720
still work for people that have Albie hubs.

2102
01:24:13,180 --> 01:24:16,240
So you don't really need to remove the

2103
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:19,460
Albie, um, piece of this.

2104
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:22,960
You just can pay these bolt 11 invoices

2105
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:24,280
with the Albie API.

2106
01:24:24,540 --> 01:24:27,440
So, you know, you can almost like start

2107
01:24:27,440 --> 01:24:31,680
testing this without implementing strike.

2108
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:33,620
Oh, so you can just use the Albie

2109
01:24:33,620 --> 01:24:37,020
APIs to try paying one of these LN

2110
01:24:37,020 --> 01:24:39,820
address types value blocks, which we have one

2111
01:24:39,820 --> 01:24:41,440
example in the fountain radio feed.

2112
01:24:41,900 --> 01:24:43,780
So I think that's really important as well

2113
01:24:43,780 --> 01:24:46,960
to like, and, you know, I've been speaking

2114
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:48,640
to the Albie guys, you know, I think

2115
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:52,220
they, they understand where I'm coming from with

2116
01:24:52,220 --> 01:24:55,100
this and hopefully we can get them, um,

2117
01:24:55,420 --> 01:24:58,400
you know, on board with pushing this change.

2118
01:24:58,440 --> 01:25:00,520
Cause also it gives people the opportunity to

2119
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:03,860
revisit the payments in their app and also

2120
01:25:03,860 --> 01:25:05,760
look at things like NOS, the wallet connect

2121
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:08,280
as well, which I know, you know, Albie

2122
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:11,040
would like more people to, to integrate.

2123
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:13,960
So I think getting Albie on board and

2124
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,760
just framing this as, you know, this is

2125
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,020
a great solution for the future for, for

2126
01:25:19,020 --> 01:25:22,020
Albie, for bouncing, for all of the apps

2127
01:25:22,020 --> 01:25:24,500
and, and it shouldn't be that difficult if,

2128
01:25:24,700 --> 01:25:26,420
if we can get everyone on board, then

2129
01:25:26,420 --> 01:25:29,220
we can think about at some point, you

2130
01:25:29,220 --> 01:25:31,940
know, maybe like early next year, making the

2131
01:25:31,940 --> 01:25:32,360
switch.

2132
01:25:33,020 --> 01:25:33,600
Yeah.

2133
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:38,120
Because that's important that yet again, another sort

2134
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:43,980
of disconnected yet timing wise simultaneous thing that

2135
01:25:43,980 --> 01:25:46,660
is happening is, you know, it's not like,

2136
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:48,940
it's not like what we're saying is, Hey,

2137
01:25:49,540 --> 01:25:52,820
Albie listener, Albie custodial listener wallets are going

2138
01:25:52,820 --> 01:25:54,480
to be sunset on January the 5th.

2139
01:25:54,980 --> 01:25:57,120
Um, everybody switched to strike.

2140
01:25:57,340 --> 01:26:00,420
That's not, nobody's saying that it's just that

2141
01:26:00,420 --> 01:26:04,120
strike is strike ended up being, uh, a

2142
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:08,220
good example of a way that a independent

2143
01:26:08,220 --> 01:26:11,600
podcast app could connect to an existing wallet

2144
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:13,280
and begin to use that infrastructure.

2145
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:16,940
Like, like Franco with Castamatic, I mean, a

2146
01:26:16,940 --> 01:26:17,980
strike's not available in Italy.

2147
01:26:18,060 --> 01:26:18,940
He can't use it.

2148
01:26:19,460 --> 01:26:22,200
So like, he can't even test, I mean,

2149
01:26:22,220 --> 01:26:23,880
he could put, he could put in place,

2150
01:26:24,420 --> 01:26:28,460
he could put in place the, the connectors

2151
01:26:28,460 --> 01:26:32,660
for people outside of Italy that could, so

2152
01:26:32,660 --> 01:26:34,140
that they could use it, but like, he

2153
01:26:34,140 --> 01:26:35,660
can't even test it in his own country.

2154
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:37,920
So we're not, that's not really the purpose

2155
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:40,100
of what we're talking about is, Hey, everybody

2156
01:26:40,100 --> 01:26:41,040
start using strike.

2157
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:44,580
The point is, um, not everybody start using

2158
01:26:44,580 --> 01:26:48,080
strike, but everybody starts supporting bolt 11 so

2159
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,640
that you can then have access to a

2160
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:54,420
wider array of payment of a wallet providers

2161
01:26:54,420 --> 01:26:56,340
as they come online.

2162
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:56,880
Exactly.

2163
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:59,840
As they come in your area existing.

2164
01:26:59,940 --> 01:27:02,060
Um, just so I get this straight existing

2165
01:27:02,060 --> 01:27:04,680
Albie users who, um, and I'm talking on

2166
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:09,760
the podcast listening side who have, uh, who

2167
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:11,640
have a custodial wallet that's going to go

2168
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:12,060
away.

2169
01:27:12,740 --> 01:27:15,580
Now, can Albie just switch that for them

2170
01:27:15,580 --> 01:27:18,800
and say, Oh, um, your same Albie credentials

2171
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:19,360
work.

2172
01:27:19,940 --> 01:27:21,920
Uh, but now you have to use our

2173
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:25,040
Nostra wallet connects and you bring your own

2174
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:25,420
wallet.

2175
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:27,920
Does that work?

2176
01:27:30,940 --> 01:27:31,600
I don't know.

2177
01:27:32,340 --> 01:27:33,640
I mean, it should.

2178
01:27:33,820 --> 01:27:34,000
Yeah.

2179
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:36,140
Because they support Nostra wallet connect.

2180
01:27:36,140 --> 01:27:37,240
I mean, it should.

2181
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:38,640
Well, okay.

2182
01:27:38,860 --> 01:27:38,980
Yeah.

2183
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,160
So that's a, that's an example where like,

2184
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:44,780
you know, if that, if Albie could do

2185
01:27:44,780 --> 01:27:46,800
that, then that would be, that would also

2186
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,480
really help with the transition because, you know,

2187
01:27:49,540 --> 01:27:52,340
for, for examples like Italy, the other example

2188
01:27:52,340 --> 01:27:53,280
is Zebedee as well.

2189
01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:55,340
I know they've been talking about, you know,

2190
01:27:55,420 --> 01:27:57,980
opening up the OAuth capability as well.

2191
01:27:58,020 --> 01:27:59,740
So that would be a great, another option.

2192
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,820
And then, yeah, if Albie could allow you

2193
01:28:02,820 --> 01:28:06,300
to sign up with a wallet, connect it

2194
01:28:06,300 --> 01:28:08,760
to Albie via Nostra wallet connect, and then

2195
01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:11,560
use the Albie APIs kind of like, so

2196
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:13,780
there's like three hops for the user through

2197
01:28:13,780 --> 01:28:15,540
Albie to the other wallet.

2198
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:18,220
Like that doesn't, obviously that doesn't solve the

2199
01:28:18,220 --> 01:28:19,960
onboarding thing that we've talked about, but that

2200
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:23,040
may solve it for existing Albie users that

2201
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:24,040
just want to kind of like.

2202
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:26,240
Just continue using it.

2203
01:28:26,500 --> 01:28:26,600
Yes.

2204
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:28,400
So that could be a solution for Franco.

2205
01:28:28,580 --> 01:28:29,600
I mean, he would still have to have

2206
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:33,760
his users select a different wallet, a wallet

2207
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:37,780
provider, but they, they wouldn't even necessarily have

2208
01:28:37,780 --> 01:28:40,240
to change anything in their, in their app.

2209
01:28:40,300 --> 01:28:45,060
They could use the existing Albie, Albie API.

2210
01:28:46,540 --> 01:28:47,000
Yeah.

2211
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:49,400
And Eric PP said, I think you can

2212
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:53,180
connect Koinos to an Albie account.

2213
01:28:53,300 --> 01:28:54,360
So that would be another option.

2214
01:28:54,540 --> 01:28:54,640
Yeah.

2215
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:57,180
I don't, I just, I don't want, I

2216
01:28:57,180 --> 01:28:59,340
hate that the Albie guys thought we were

2217
01:28:59,340 --> 01:29:01,280
fudding them and throwing them under the bus.

2218
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:02,140
That's just not the case.

2219
01:29:02,260 --> 01:29:05,180
We're just trying to be realistic and, you

2220
01:29:05,180 --> 01:29:06,740
know, never let a good crisis go to

2221
01:29:06,740 --> 01:29:07,060
waste.

2222
01:29:07,660 --> 01:29:10,060
And this is the, this is the way

2223
01:29:10,060 --> 01:29:12,800
that you, this is the right time to

2224
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:16,720
do uncomfortable kind of things that break stuff

2225
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:17,340
and get messy.

2226
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:19,840
So let's, let's just like, like, let's just

2227
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:23,180
go through this and, and get it done.

2228
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:24,400
And we'll come out on the other side

2229
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:26,240
with something that's better for them and everybody

2230
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:26,820
else too.

2231
01:29:29,800 --> 01:29:30,200
I love it.

2232
01:29:30,440 --> 01:29:30,540
Yeah.

2233
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:31,300
I love it.

2234
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:34,100
Where, where are we at?

2235
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:35,500
Oh, we're an hour and a half.

2236
01:29:35,580 --> 01:29:36,620
Do you want to leave it here?

2237
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:38,440
Have we, have we discussed everything we need

2238
01:29:38,440 --> 01:29:38,560
to?

2239
01:29:38,620 --> 01:29:40,240
I mean, there's plenty more stuff we could

2240
01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:42,020
talk about, but that can be for the

2241
01:29:42,020 --> 01:29:42,820
next board meeting.

2242
01:29:44,020 --> 01:29:44,380
Yeah.

2243
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:47,140
I think this is probably as much as

2244
01:29:47,140 --> 01:29:49,300
we can digest at the moment.

2245
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:53,660
And yeah, I mean, Oscar, man, I, I,

2246
01:29:53,660 --> 01:29:56,140
I so much appreciate you doing this pod

2247
01:29:56,140 --> 01:29:57,520
pay example thing.

2248
01:29:57,980 --> 01:30:00,100
This is so helpful, man.

2249
01:30:00,180 --> 01:30:01,280
This is so helpful.

2250
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:04,420
I can't thank you enough for doing this

2251
01:30:04,420 --> 01:30:07,680
because this gives all the developers instantly an

2252
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:10,420
ability to just look and see what this

2253
01:30:10,420 --> 01:30:11,300
code looks like.

2254
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:13,260
I mean, like, thank you.

2255
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:14,840
Yeah.

2256
01:30:14,940 --> 01:30:18,420
It's really, I mean, yeah, sorry.

2257
01:30:18,420 --> 01:30:20,440
It took so long, but like, yeah, I

2258
01:30:20,440 --> 01:30:22,880
mean, happy to help because I really do

2259
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,560
believe that all of this, you know, it

2260
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:28,940
just doesn't work if it only happens in

2261
01:30:28,940 --> 01:30:31,020
one app, because you might as well just

2262
01:30:31,020 --> 01:30:34,440
go and use Spotify and have like Spotify's

2263
01:30:34,440 --> 01:30:35,620
internal payment system.

2264
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,460
It works because it creates payments.

2265
01:30:39,460 --> 01:30:43,220
It creates cool social features, but you can

2266
01:30:43,220 --> 01:30:46,220
still choose to use any podcast app, depending

2267
01:30:46,220 --> 01:30:49,120
on, you know, the design or the feature

2268
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:51,900
set or, you know, whatever.

2269
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:56,580
So I think it's really important that the

2270
01:30:56,580 --> 01:30:58,800
payments work in an open way going forward.

2271
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:01,140
And I hope that yeah, we can just,

2272
01:31:01,380 --> 01:31:03,900
I mean, I still would love it at

2273
01:31:03,900 --> 01:31:04,520
some point.

2274
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:06,920
I think it, it would just be so

2275
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,700
cool if someone could send a boost on

2276
01:31:09,700 --> 01:31:11,760
like Dave, if you could send a boost

2277
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:14,780
on Castamatic and I could see that on

2278
01:31:14,780 --> 01:31:17,060
the episode page and fountain and reply to

2279
01:31:17,060 --> 01:31:18,020
you saying, Oh, cool.

2280
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:19,200
I'll check this episode out.

2281
01:31:19,280 --> 01:31:20,060
Add to my queue.

2282
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:23,060
Like that one day, maybe one day would

2283
01:31:23,060 --> 01:31:25,240
be an incredible, incredible thing.

2284
01:31:25,440 --> 01:31:27,900
And Spotify and Apple are just never going

2285
01:31:27,900 --> 01:31:28,820
to be able to do that.

2286
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:31,080
So I just hope they never want, they

2287
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:32,020
don't want to, they don't know.

2288
01:31:32,140 --> 01:31:33,160
It's not in their best interest.

2289
01:31:33,580 --> 01:31:33,860
Yeah.

2290
01:31:34,900 --> 01:31:36,260
So I hope we can get there one

2291
01:31:36,260 --> 01:31:38,820
day and hopefully this like sharing of the

2292
01:31:38,820 --> 01:31:41,040
metadata is like the first step and yeah,

2293
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:43,040
it's going to be, it is a change,

2294
01:31:43,140 --> 01:31:45,980
but yeah, if any, like just please reach

2295
01:31:45,980 --> 01:31:47,160
out to me, take a look at the

2296
01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:49,500
demo code and we don't have to do

2297
01:31:49,500 --> 01:31:50,660
it exactly in this way.

2298
01:31:50,660 --> 01:31:52,300
Like this can hopefully be the start of

2299
01:31:52,300 --> 01:31:54,440
the conversation and we can arrive at something

2300
01:31:54,440 --> 01:31:55,380
that works for everyone.

2301
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:59,560
And if anyone wants to test it's a

2302
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:01,640
fountain radio, what's the URL for that?

2303
01:32:02,780 --> 01:32:03,000
Yeah.

2304
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:05,940
So it's fountain.fm slash radio, and you

2305
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:07,800
can also listen in the mobile app.

2306
01:32:08,380 --> 01:32:11,080
So yeah, check out, Ainsley is actually doing

2307
01:32:11,080 --> 01:32:12,500
a live takeover now.

2308
01:32:12,860 --> 01:32:13,240
Oh nice.

2309
01:32:14,020 --> 01:32:16,620
We have the ability for artists to take

2310
01:32:16,620 --> 01:32:16,880
over.

2311
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:19,000
So yeah, jump over to fountain radio and

2312
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:22,920
also, yeah, like app developers use the fountain

2313
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:26,800
radio feed because yeah, it's just a live

2314
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:27,180
item.

2315
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,160
It works in the same way as a

2316
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:30,120
regular live item.

2317
01:32:30,700 --> 01:32:32,620
But obviously the value block is in this

2318
01:32:32,620 --> 01:32:33,200
new format.

2319
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:36,740
So yeah, use fountain radio as your test

2320
01:32:36,740 --> 01:32:39,240
feed and hopefully you'll discover some good tunes

2321
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:41,520
whilst you're working away.

2322
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:42,000
Excellent.

2323
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:44,280
And I'm going to leave my strike split

2324
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:46,760
in the podcasting 2.0 feed if anyone

2325
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,240
wants to hit that and I can provide

2326
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:50,900
instant feedback as well.

2327
01:32:51,440 --> 01:32:51,760
Okay.

2328
01:32:52,620 --> 01:32:55,900
I suggest we forego the value for value

2329
01:32:55,900 --> 01:32:58,900
thanks here and move that towards the next

2330
01:32:58,900 --> 01:33:00,140
show, if that's okay with you, Dave?

2331
01:33:01,140 --> 01:33:01,760
Oh yeah, sure.

2332
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:02,300
That's fine.

2333
01:33:04,580 --> 01:33:06,300
Well, you had an hour and a half.

2334
01:33:06,400 --> 01:33:07,340
You've got your family.

2335
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:08,420
I don't want you rushing.

2336
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:10,900
I'm falling down.

2337
01:33:11,020 --> 01:33:11,860
I haven't had breakfast.

2338
01:33:12,860 --> 01:33:15,300
And the donuts suck today in the boardroom.

2339
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:15,920
I'm really sorry.

2340
01:33:16,580 --> 01:33:17,940
I'll get a different provider.

2341
01:33:18,820 --> 01:33:20,520
Is there a cake type?

2342
01:33:20,780 --> 01:33:22,080
It's not my favorite.

2343
01:33:22,300 --> 01:33:23,260
Yeah, not my favorite.

2344
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:25,600
And the scones that Oscar brought, you know,

2345
01:33:25,660 --> 01:33:27,120
I ate all of those in a minute.

2346
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:28,180
You know, it's done.

2347
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:30,900
Oscar brother, thank you so much.

2348
01:33:30,980 --> 01:33:32,860
Thank you for jumping on this.

2349
01:33:32,980 --> 01:33:34,260
We really appreciate it.

2350
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:37,560
And I'm so grateful that you see that

2351
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:39,600
we need the whole, you know, the whole

2352
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:40,420
grouping on this.

2353
01:33:40,540 --> 01:33:42,540
We need to build, you know, a whole

2354
01:33:42,540 --> 01:33:44,820
force and an army and it's not just

2355
01:33:44,820 --> 01:33:45,080
fountain.

2356
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:46,420
That really says a lot about you, my

2357
01:33:46,420 --> 01:33:46,640
brother.

2358
01:33:46,740 --> 01:33:47,220
It really does.

2359
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:49,400
Well, yeah.

2360
01:33:50,020 --> 01:33:50,700
Thanks, guys.

2361
01:33:50,820 --> 01:33:52,000
Appreciate everything you do.

2362
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:55,760
And yeah, looking forward to working through all

2363
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:56,000
of this.

2364
01:33:56,080 --> 01:33:57,580
So yeah, thanks so much for having me

2365
01:33:57,580 --> 01:33:57,900
on again.

2366
01:33:57,900 --> 01:33:58,780
All right.

2367
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:00,500
Boardroom, thank you for those of you who

2368
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:01,400
showed up so early.

2369
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:04,920
Dave, brother, have a great Thanksgiving gathering with

2370
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:05,340
the family.

2371
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:08,800
And I'm sure they're looking forward to hearing

2372
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:09,720
all about the board meeting.

2373
01:34:09,820 --> 01:34:10,860
They want to know every detail.

2374
01:34:11,740 --> 01:34:13,840
Yeah, we're going to get pretty deep into

2375
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:17,880
payment peruse around the table today.

2376
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:24,060
Thank you all very much for being here

2377
01:34:24,060 --> 01:34:24,680
in the boardroom.

2378
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:26,840
We'll see you next Friday for Podcasting 2

2379
01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:43,100
.0. You

2380
01:34:43,100 --> 01:34:47,620
have been listening to Podcasting 2.0. Visit

2381
01:34:47,620 --> 01:34:50,760
podcastindex.org for more information.

2382
01:34:52,380 --> 01:34:55,420
Your dog caught on fire.