1
00:00:00,810 --> 00:00:05,940
Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for
June 7 2024, episode 180 to drop

2
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,600
the dongle if it's Friday, it's
podcasting 2.0 Hello everybody

3
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,790
welcome to the show where we
talk about podcasting the

4
00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:20,760
future. Today will actually be
talking about the past as well

5
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,970
and what they can bring into the
future confused yet don't worry,

6
00:00:23,970 --> 00:00:26,580
you won't be everything
happening in podcasts index dot

7
00:00:26,580 --> 00:00:31,080
social, the namespace podcast
index.org And this is the only

8
00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,470
boardroom that celebrates the
heroes of podcasting. I'm Adam

9
00:00:34,470 --> 00:00:36,570
curry here in the heart of the
Texas Hill Country and an

10
00:00:36,570 --> 00:00:39,930
Alabama the man who can't get
aggravated even by comic strip

11
00:00:39,930 --> 00:00:42,840
blogger who say hello to my
friend on the other end the one

12
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:48,180
and only Mr. De Jones.

13
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,870
Dave Jones: I can get aggravated
by comments your blogger I just

14
00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:52,680
choose not to.

15
00:00:54,329 --> 00:01:00,749
Adam Curry: I have known him for
I want to say 17 or 18 years.

16
00:01:01,439 --> 00:01:05,369
And he still doesn't aggravate
me he is a feature not a bug.

17
00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:09,600
Dave Jones: That's a long time
to know comic strip blogger.

18
00:01:09,689 --> 00:01:11,879
Adam Curry: Yeah, I've actually
met him once in person. How

19
00:01:11,879 --> 00:01:12,299
about that

20
00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:13,980
Dave Jones: his own parents
don't haven't known him that

21
00:01:13,980 --> 00:01:14,190
long.

22
00:01:16,230 --> 00:01:21,060
Adam Curry: That's a good way of
looking at it. Man oh man. Oh,

23
00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:24,210
man. Here we go. We got a great
guest today. I can't wait to

24
00:01:24,210 --> 00:01:27,240
introduce him to everybody. Very
excited having spoken to him and

25
00:01:27,270 --> 00:01:28,320
I don't know 10 years.

26
00:01:29,550 --> 00:01:30,720
Dave Jones: That's a reunions
family

27
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,580
Adam Curry: read it is it is a
family reunion.

28
00:01:33,210 --> 00:01:36,240
Dave Jones: Heroes a podcasting?
That sounds like a document.

29
00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:38,160
Documentary. You

30
00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:42,059
Adam Curry: know, I have done at
least three documentaries

31
00:01:42,059 --> 00:01:46,709
interviews for documentaries.
Not a one has ever come out. Oh,

32
00:01:48,029 --> 00:01:51,779
that's great. Yeah. No, it's
important to be documentaries to

33
00:01:51,779 --> 00:01:54,149
get them funded. It's
impossible. And then once you

34
00:01:54,149 --> 00:01:57,809
get it funded, nobody ever makes
their money back. I mean,

35
00:01:57,809 --> 00:02:00,839
documentaries is a horrible,
horrible business.

36
00:02:01,709 --> 00:02:04,019
Dave Jones: Netflix kind of
killed the whole documentary

37
00:02:04,019 --> 00:02:06,419
thing, didn't they? Because they
just pay they said okay, we're

38
00:02:06,419 --> 00:02:09,989
gonna You're gonna pay everybody
up front. There's no long term

39
00:02:09,989 --> 00:02:11,129
benefit to this.

40
00:02:11,610 --> 00:02:13,710
Adam Curry: I would say no, I
would say this even worse than

41
00:02:13,710 --> 00:02:19,350
that Amazon Prime really killed
it. They take some astronomical

42
00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:23,640
amount like 80% and and you
know, then they just kick you

43
00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:27,390
off and they you know, it's it's
a mess. It's a mess. Which is

44
00:02:27,390 --> 00:02:31,230
why I hope our boy can get into
hub up and running value for I

45
00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:33,360
think value for value
documentaries. I think there's

46
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,590
something there I really do.

47
00:02:36,630 --> 00:02:39,660
Dave Jones: I forgot to send him
a pod ping token, golf Katrin.

48
00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:40,230
Okay. Oh,

49
00:02:40,230 --> 00:02:41,790
Adam Curry: write it down.
Right. It's a bit It's okay.

50
00:02:41,790 --> 00:02:45,090
It'll show up in the AI
transcript summary. Now here's

51
00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:50,220
long as the reminder Dave needs
to send in the hub dude, a what

52
00:02:50,220 --> 00:02:54,330
kind of token pod paying? Token
Yes, pod.

53
00:02:55,710 --> 00:03:00,540
Dave Jones: Siri remind me to
send nd hub due to pod pink

54
00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:02,280
token in three hours.

55
00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:05,850
Adam Curry: Wow. And here's the
guy who's upset about the window

56
00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:08,970
snapshot you just reading your
life into Siri, what's wrong

57
00:03:08,970 --> 00:03:10,020
with you, Dave Jones.

58
00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:12,660
Dave Jones: Here's what here's
what the reminder came through

59
00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:17,160
as sinned. Indeed, due to PP
token, there you go.

60
00:03:18,330 --> 00:03:20,370
Adam Curry: Okay, whatever,
that's gonna save the world.

61
00:03:20,370 --> 00:03:24,000
Everybody is gonna save it, it's
gonna save. It's gonna be great.

62
00:03:24,420 --> 00:03:27,150
All right, I gotta talk about
wallets for a moment. But just

63
00:03:27,150 --> 00:03:29,160
want to make sure everyone
understands what's going on.

64
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,930
There, it looks like albies
Having some some issues today.

65
00:03:34,770 --> 00:03:38,430
With the incoming, the last
incoming stats I got on my lb

66
00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:42,960
wallet was about eight hours
ago. And this is, of course,

67
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,440
what I warned about this is your
centralization. I would like to

68
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,460
explain the solution to
everybody for podcast, app

69
00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:55,560
wallets. Please do. Okay. So
first, let's understand how the

70
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,430
system works. No matter what
you're using, somewhere there's

71
00:03:59,430 --> 00:04:06,690
a node. And that node needs to
be online. And for sending that

72
00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:10,140
node really only needs to be
online the minute it has to send

73
00:04:10,140 --> 00:04:13,290
something and then it's really
not that important. And we'll

74
00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:16,230
talk about podcaster wallets
later on. But this is just

75
00:04:16,230 --> 00:04:23,820
purely from an app perspective.
So we have all kind of

76
00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:28,920
consolidated on the lb API
because it was easy to do. Don't

77
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,440
have to think about how the
Lightning Network Function. So I

78
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,410
want to give a a high level
overview and then present people

79
00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:37,470
with a solution because
ultimately, the PERT in a

80
00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:40,860
perfect world. Everybody would
have their own node and it would

81
00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:42,780
just you know, you'd connect
your app to it. And it would

82
00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:46,230
work. Of course, that is very
imperfect world because you're

83
00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:50,790
not going to ask your app users
to start up a node on Umbral or

84
00:04:50,790 --> 00:04:57,000
start nine or anything like
that. However, there is a and in

85
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,850
addition to that, just bringing
up a node doesn't mean the node

86
00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:02,790
where works, you need channels
and you need money in those

87
00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:06,690
channels. So liquidity,
liquidity Yes, you know, so that

88
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,420
that requires money, which is
another thing you just kind of

89
00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:13,290
don't want to ask your users to
do. However, there has been a

90
00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:18,150
solution for several months.
And, you know, as as always, it

91
00:05:18,150 --> 00:05:21,060
doesn't really matter until
things fall apart, and we have

92
00:05:21,060 --> 00:05:26,610
to go in and fix them. And from
what I understand Alby is no

93
00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:30,780
longer going to create wallets
for US customers. And there's,

94
00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:33,840
it's just very unclear where
they're at. And I don't blame

95
00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:36,780
them, I understand it. They're
Germans, they, and they don't

96
00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:40,590
mean in a bad way. They, they,
they're like the French, the

97
00:05:40,590 --> 00:05:44,190
French pulled out, the Germans
are pulling out, I get it, our

98
00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:49,470
regulatory environment is
confusing. However, having your

99
00:05:49,470 --> 00:05:54,570
own node even in the App Store
is completely okay. This has

100
00:05:54,570 --> 00:05:58,020
been proven by the breeze app,
if you've never used the breeze

101
00:05:58,020 --> 00:06:02,550
app, I suggest developers grab
the breeze app and just play

102
00:06:02,550 --> 00:06:07,140
with it for a little while.
Because it really is a wonderful

103
00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:10,860
system, you get the app, you
load some bitcoin into it, you

104
00:06:10,860 --> 00:06:14,160
can buy it, or you can send some
from on chain or lightning or

105
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,490
wherever you want to get it
from. And even that, that's it,

106
00:06:17,490 --> 00:06:20,640
you haven't opened a channel,
you haven't done anything, it

107
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,020
opens it for you automatically.
And when you send it make sure

108
00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:27,450
that your channel is big enough
to send it does it all

109
00:06:27,450 --> 00:06:32,850
dynamically. This is what Roy
has taught us over several years

110
00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:36,510
ROI from breeze. This is what a
lightning service provider does.

111
00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:39,450
And this is what Brees has
always been their app is really

112
00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:43,710
just a reference app. And so
they're finally rolling

113
00:06:43,710 --> 00:06:47,040
everything out and things are
going quite quick. Cake wallet

114
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:53,910
just added or is about to add, I
think July, the breeze SDK. And

115
00:06:53,970 --> 00:07:02,340
so what you need for every user
of your app is a node. Now, you

116
00:07:02,340 --> 00:07:05,730
can have a node that is separate
from the app. Or you can have a

117
00:07:05,730 --> 00:07:09,660
node a very slimmed pared down
version of the node that only

118
00:07:09,660 --> 00:07:12,600
uses the pieces of that node
when necessary in your app

119
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:19,020
through the free breeze SDK. You
add that, and I'm simplifying it

120
00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:21,480
because I've never added an s
actually, I have added an SD I

121
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,200
once built an app. And I did put
an SDK in so I have I have seen

122
00:07:25,470 --> 00:07:28,830
works. Yeah, I actually built an
iPhone app back in the day, the

123
00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:29,580
big book show.

124
00:07:30,210 --> 00:07:33,750
Dave Jones: Oh, I remember that.
Yeah, you had a freedom

125
00:07:33,750 --> 00:07:34,800
controller page for that.

126
00:07:36,570 --> 00:07:39,390
Adam Curry: Correct. So I so I
do know how it works. And that,

127
00:07:39,420 --> 00:07:43,500
you know, there's calls inside
of that to send a payment. And

128
00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:48,360
the beauty of it is that the
breeze SDK automatically comes

129
00:07:48,390 --> 00:07:52,950
with this lightning service
provider that is provided by

130
00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:57,060
breeze and they take care of all
the stuff. So you don't have to

131
00:07:57,060 --> 00:08:00,270
worry about it. All you need to
do is make sure that when it's

132
00:08:00,270 --> 00:08:05,010
time to send a payment, that you
make the key send call, it sends

133
00:08:05,010 --> 00:08:07,500
it to the appropriate splits.
And you're done. Because you've

134
00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:13,560
basically given your customer,
your user a note. It works. Now,

135
00:08:14,010 --> 00:08:18,330
what do we do with webapps? Oh,
it doesn't work? Well. Here's

136
00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:24,120
the beauty of it. Green light,
which is working very closely

137
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,030
with breeze because breeze
again, is a lightning service

138
00:08:27,030 --> 00:08:31,110
provider has an API. Now you can
download green light and run it

139
00:08:31,110 --> 00:08:35,040
on your own server. But it's
probably seems much easier just

140
00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,430
to use their API since that's
what developers like. And you

141
00:08:38,430 --> 00:08:43,320
could even do this from your app
if you want. Although you'll

142
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,700
find out why there's reasons not
to. And the minute you need to

143
00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:53,400
make a payment, you send the
call through the API, Greenlight

144
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,680
then spins up a node real quick,
like within milliseconds, makes

145
00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:01,260
the payment waits to see if
there's something else coming

146
00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:06,600
and then shuts down again. And
then it's the same nodes, we

147
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:12,480
have the same node address and
the lightning payment and all

148
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,910
the plumbing is done by the
breeze lightning service

149
00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:19,110
provider. So what you're doing
is you're giving your customer

150
00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:23,010
your user in that case, their
own node that they operate, and

151
00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:25,800
it just goes up. The reason why
it's very efficient is because

152
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,990
it doesn't have to stay online
all the time, because it's

153
00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:34,890
really only sending payments.
And Greenlight gives you 1000

154
00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:38,490
nodes for free just to start
testing it. So that's if you

155
00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:42,480
have a web app, I'm thinking Sam
Sethi, or if you don't want to

156
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,190
use an SDK. Now above that, they
say hey, give us a shout. Give

157
00:09:47,190 --> 00:09:50,400
us a call and we'll figure out
what you need. If it's more than

158
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,090
1000. I'm sure many people will
expect to have more than 1000.

159
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,860
But I'm pretty confident that if
it's comes down to Sam Sethi,

160
00:09:59,190 --> 00:10:02,460
he'll negotiate Get the heck out
of it with those guys, they will

161
00:10:02,460 --> 00:10:06,990
probably wind up getting 10,000
for free. Right. But this is the

162
00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:13,800
way forward. In addition, both
the breeze SDK and the green

163
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:19,800
light API use core lightning,
which appears to be a lot more

164
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,210
developer friendly. And they
have also already implemented

165
00:10:24,210 --> 00:10:29,190
Bolt 12, which is really the
next, the next step and where we

166
00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:32,460
need to go with wallets four v
four v streaming and boosting.

167
00:10:32,940 --> 00:10:37,860
That's where we need to go. And
so I have actually try this, I

168
00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:42,210
got the developer, I got my
token, I copy pasted some code,

169
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,960
and it works, you can send a
lightning payment, right from

170
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,880
the command line. And it works
beautifully. Now that in

171
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:57,600
addition to this great system,
you also have a choice of

172
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,200
lightning service providers. So
you don't have to use the breeze

173
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,190
SDK, or green light with the
breeze lightning service

174
00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:08,940
provider, there are others,
Olympus being one, which is

175
00:11:09,090 --> 00:11:13,620
Zeus, Zeus app uses that. So
there's no upfront cost for your

176
00:11:13,620 --> 00:11:17,700
users, it just works. And these
guys are already putting in on

177
00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:22,080
ramps right into their system.
So it's, you know, relatively

178
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,130
easy. You never know, you know,
your mileage may vary depending

179
00:11:26,130 --> 00:11:29,700
on your country, and, you know,
all kinds of fuzzy stuff that I

180
00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:33,000
don't know, and people might
have to steal KYC. But it's

181
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,040
relatively easy to buy into get
bitcoin into your wallet, even

182
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,990
from on chain, etc. And it's
pretty much sovereign. So you

183
00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:47,160
can tell your users, hey, you've
got the keys, don't lose them,

184
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:50,700
because that's on you. And
there's nothing else to support.

185
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:57,840
And I have a feeling just
looking at the world that more

186
00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,900
and more people are going to
actually be interested in

187
00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:05,580
podcasting with Bitcoin than we
realize. We're getting to a

188
00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:11,580
point where bitcoin is in the
public eye they have some people

189
00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:15,330
have it in their 401 K's some
people have it in their own

190
00:12:15,330 --> 00:12:21,420
retirement accounts. The
Wisconsin Retirement System

191
00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:23,610
actually just bought $100
million dollars worth of

192
00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:28,470
bitcoin, there's a very
conservative retirement outfit.

193
00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:32,190
And more and more people are
going to be interested in how do

194
00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:37,590
I get some of that Bitcoin. So
on the podcaster side, we have

195
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:41,820
some work to do, because this
Greenlight system does not work

196
00:12:42,420 --> 00:12:51,210
with key sand, but the bolt 12
side will work. So I implore

197
00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:55,020
everyone to take a look at that,
because I don't feel very

198
00:12:55,020 --> 00:13:02,640
confident with what I'm seeing
from our Alby brothers. And, and

199
00:13:02,670 --> 00:13:07,680
I know it's work. But I really
truly believe that this is the

200
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,170
way forward. I've been saying it
for months and months and

201
00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:16,110
months. And I've even I even
tested it myself. This took a

202
00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:19,830
lot of work on my part. This is
very hacky, the way Adam does

203
00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:25,680
stuff, but it really does work.
And go ahead. Can

204
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,690
Dave Jones: you tell me exactly
what you did? Because you said

205
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,570
you said I tested it from the
command line and it worked. I

206
00:13:30,570 --> 00:13:31,590
mean, what did you do? Yeah,

207
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:34,560
Adam Curry: so green light, I
only I only tested the the green

208
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,740
light and the LSP part. So I got
the green light, you get a

209
00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:41,490
token. So you can use it in a
Python script. I think it does

210
00:13:41,490 --> 00:13:45,000
rust, Python, a couple other
languages. And I just copied and

211
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,430
pasted their demo script and
sent a key send payment.

212
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,220
Dave Jones: And it worked
greenline This is not the breeze

213
00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:54,810
SDK. No, the Yeah,

214
00:13:54,810 --> 00:13:59,100
Adam Curry: exactly is the the
breeze SDK is only for apps. But

215
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:04,650
the greenlight API uses the
breeze lightning service

216
00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:07,020
provider to take care of all the
liquidity so you don't have to

217
00:14:07,020 --> 00:14:10,110
worry about that. So it just
works. I didn't have to fund a

218
00:14:10,110 --> 00:14:13,140
channel didn't have to do
anything at all. It just worked.

219
00:14:13,950 --> 00:14:14,550
And

220
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:20,910
Dave Jones: you're saying that
you're saying that the the

221
00:14:20,940 --> 00:14:26,670
greenlight nodes do not support
key send

222
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,370
Adam Curry: no they support key
send out but the way they

223
00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:33,180
operate is a spin up the minute
you need to send this is kind of

224
00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:36,600
the problem that sphinx had back
in the day is they couldn't

225
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,380
figure out how to start up
little mini nodes for everybody

226
00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:44,070
with liquidity built in. Because
it just wasn't available. The

227
00:14:44,070 --> 00:14:48,450
lightning service provider piece
wasn't there yet. So that's now

228
00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:52,200
here and I don't know what
Sphinx is doing anymore. But

229
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,040
Greenlight basically just spins
up the node when necessary. The

230
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,000
beauty of it is that they do
Bolt 12 So we could move to bow

231
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,840
All 12 and in Bolt 12 Incoming
as far I haven't been able to

232
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,260
try that, as far as I understand
does work because they will

233
00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:12,510
trigger the bolt 12 invoice
procedure. So it will start up

234
00:15:12,510 --> 00:15:18,240
and you'll receive it in your
interface app, whatever it is.

235
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,180
Right. But now I've asked Oscar
who has gone quiet? I don't know

236
00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:30,000
why. I've asked him if the if
Zebedee if they're using lnd or

237
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,980
CLI? I don't know, I have a
feeling they're using lnd. But I

238
00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:39,930
don't know for sure. Possible,
because if the using CLI, then

239
00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:42,870
we can just move to bold 12. And
it removes a whole bunch of

240
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:49,800
problems. But in the meantime,
hosting companies are certainly

241
00:15:49,830 --> 00:15:55,110
able to provide some kind of
services to their podcasters in

242
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:59,880
Wave Lake has done it. You may
not want to do it. But I think

243
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,200
moving towards the future
hosting companies should be also

244
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,960
providing wallet solutions for
their podcasters.

245
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,380
Dave Jones: So the that listen,
if there's outbound keys, and on

246
00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:19,170
the listen on the listener
wallet side, that I mean, that

247
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:22,740
is fine. Let's purchase. That's
that's that's perfect.

248
00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:24,150
Adam Curry: That's exactly what
we need. Yeah,

249
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,570
Dave Jones: Brad's exactly what
we need. The the issue, you

250
00:16:27,570 --> 00:16:36,150
know, on the on the receiving
side? Is the less Tim is less of

251
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:38,790
a problem at this point in time?
Yes, correct.

252
00:16:39,060 --> 00:16:42,510
Adam Curry: It's a solvable
problem is just how people want

253
00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:46,590
to solve it. I again, think it
should be the hosting companies

254
00:16:46,590 --> 00:16:50,310
that do this. Because the model
has been set. I mean, the model

255
00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:56,190
is there. And there's many ways
to solve that. You know, there's

256
00:16:56,220 --> 00:16:59,820
people pay for services. So you
know, there's ways to solve

257
00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:04,020
that. I'm seeing a path and that
path is through Bolt 12. And

258
00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:07,020
Bolt 12 already works on core
lightning.

259
00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:13,860
Dave Jones: The developer of
core lightning? Is the wrote the

260
00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:15,510
initial spec for Bolt 12.

261
00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:19,470
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's why it
works. Yeah, Rusty?

262
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,660
Dave Jones: Rusty Russell, I
think is the name. I don't know.

263
00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:25,290
I don't know. I think he's the
core developer for certainly

264
00:17:25,290 --> 00:17:32,520
developer for core lightning.
But the, the bolt 11 which is

265
00:17:32,970 --> 00:17:38,610
what the main, the main thing
that lightning has used since

266
00:17:38,610 --> 00:17:44,880
day one, in my opinion, was
always a big mistake. Always, no

267
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:51,060
other payment, no other payment
system requires you to have the

268
00:17:51,060 --> 00:17:53,910
receiver send you an invoice
first before you're allowed to

269
00:17:53,910 --> 00:17:59,160
pay them. Right. If you think of
any other any other payments,

270
00:17:59,460 --> 00:18:05,190
payment exchange architecture,
whether it's PayPal, or cash

271
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:10,080
app, or Venmo, or even your
bank, you never have to get

272
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,010
permission to send the other
person money. That's just a it's

273
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:14,520
just, it's,

274
00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:16,920
Adam Curry: it's weird. It's
very weird. It's very weird.

275
00:18:17,370 --> 00:18:17,640
Yeah, I

276
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,740
Dave Jones: understand. If you
look at the technicals, you

277
00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:22,320
understand why they did it that
way, because they they do the

278
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,980
preimage. And then they they're
going to you know, they need to

279
00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:28,830
reverse the encryption out of
the onion as it goes through the

280
00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:29,760
the node hops

281
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,500
Adam Curry: reverse the
encryption out of the onion

282
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:32,130
captain.

283
00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:36,990
Dave Jones: But but it's still
raw, it's still the wrong

284
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:41,310
solution. You just you just you
have to do a different you need

285
00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:44,970
to architect a better solution.
And that better solution is both

286
00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:49,350
12 Yes. And and it's, it's
unforgivable, in my opinion that

287
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:54,600
l&d has existed for six years,
and still does not have Bolwell

288
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:55,650
support, right.

289
00:18:56,550 --> 00:19:00,690
Adam Curry: So now, of course,
in our world, fountain is an

290
00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:04,710
important player in value for
value, if they don't have both

291
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:08,280
12 It's not going to be a great
starter to move to bolt 12 Now

292
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,830
we can have options, and, you
know, send keys, and if but, you

293
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:16,200
know, I just don't know where
they're at. I don't know what

294
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,840
they're using. And lnd may have
a complete different gameplan

295
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,760
you know, who knows what they're
doing? They're doing all kinds

296
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,950
of stuff that is not necessarily
implementing

297
00:19:25,950 --> 00:19:29,310
Dave Jones: Bolt 12 They are. I
mean, I see I see their roadmap.

298
00:19:29,550 --> 00:19:32,940
They send weekly emails, but as
it's like they just started. I

299
00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:40,290
mean, like, they just think the
version 18 of l&d is just

300
00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:43,710
putting in the very beginnings
of bolt 12 I mean, it could be

301
00:19:43,710 --> 00:19:45,090
months before it's ready.

302
00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:49,410
Adam Curry: Now the I'm seeing
cake wallet. I'm seeing them

303
00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:52,800
making interesting moves. It's
very possible that after they

304
00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:58,470
implement the breeze SDK that
their desktop wallets may also

305
00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:06,840
implement a Key send receive
through the LSPs. You still

306
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,530
don't want I mean, even Zeus
wallet who are CLI back end

307
00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:15,060
through Olympus, they said, I
saw a thread on the on podcast

308
00:20:15,060 --> 00:20:21,900
index dot social, that they are
going to make something so that

309
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:25,920
you can run their app in the
background persistent. I don't

310
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,670
know how that does with battery
life, that you can have keys and

311
00:20:29,670 --> 00:20:32,820
receive, but it's not really the
optimal solution. Because you

312
00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:36,690
lose connectivity, you lose
connectivity, you've got no

313
00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:42,150
money, you got no money coming
in. Right. But, um, I really

314
00:20:42,150 --> 00:20:47,820
would like developers to
consider implementing the breeze

315
00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:54,000
SDK or you know, or through the
green light API, if SDK is not

316
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,710
your thing. Because it is
somewhere, someone has to run a

317
00:20:58,710 --> 00:21:03,360
node for all this stuff. And
when Bolt 12 is fully

318
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,420
implemented, you'll see lots of
wallet solutions that people can

319
00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:09,600
just use for receiving, and then
maybe there'll be ways to tie

320
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,170
that in, etcetera. But if we, if
we don't bridge this gap, we're

321
00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:14,220
going to lose momentum.

322
00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:19,470
Dave Jones: Oh, for me,
certainly. I myself. I mean, I

323
00:21:19,470 --> 00:21:22,560
was ready to give up this past
week. I mean, I was really

324
00:21:22,620 --> 00:21:25,020
serious, seriously, I mean, that
just the idea of having to go

325
00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:29,550
back and re architect and
completely different solution.

326
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,080
And all this stuff was right. I
mean, it, it's it's frustrating.

327
00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:39,300
You know, it's frustrating is a
momentum killer. And, you know,

328
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:45,120
that so I know, you're right,
you're right. The other the

329
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:49,680
other thing is this, I mean,
let's let's kind of look at the

330
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:57,810
landscape a little bit. This was
all this was all okay. Until

331
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:05,700
this until this administration,
this current presidential

332
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,990
administration just went full on
nuts with with with attacking

333
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:14,760
Bitcoin. And, you know, not just
not just the samurai wallet

334
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:22,080
stuff, and in all the coin mechs
or prosecutions, but with the

335
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:27,420
with vetoing the bank, you know,
bank custody of, of

336
00:22:27,420 --> 00:22:32,610
cryptographic assets, break
regulations out of the SEC. I

337
00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:38,010
mean, there, it's gotten now,
it's now it's is known, it's

338
00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:42,060
such an odd sort of, like,
cognitive dissonance going on,

339
00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:46,440
because you have the approval of
ETFs, and large institutional

340
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:52,410
buying and big banks, and
everybody has now embraced fully

341
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:59,640
a bit, you know, Bitcoin as an
asset. And at the same time, you

342
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,580
have the executive
administration, just pulling the

343
00:23:02,580 --> 00:23:08,400
rug out from so many people, by
saying, by just intentionally

344
00:23:09,150 --> 00:23:13,830
putting forth this idea, this
uncertainty and fear that you

345
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:18,510
could be prosecuted as a money
transmitter, for for anything

346
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,540
for anything, they just happen
to not lie. Right.

347
00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:26,940
Adam Curry: Well, so I agree.
But I, my gold standard, if you

348
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:30,150
will, is I look at the app
stores, the most conservative

349
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:35,250
people there are, and they are
fine with this solution. No,

350
00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:40,200
Dave Jones: I'm saying like, no,
yeah, I'm, I'm on the same page

351
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,220
with you. Because what I'm
trying to get at is, is the the

352
00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:48,840
answer is going to be
noncustodial. Yes. That's

353
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,820
Adam Curry: the oh, that's that.
That's always been the answer.

354
00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:54,630
We I think we know that even
when we looked at LM pay I mean,

355
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:59,100
it's it's forget the the money
transmitter part. And I think

356
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:02,190
Zebedee has money transmitter
licenses in every state except

357
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:06,840
Florida, then maybe one other
one. Which is odd, but okay, is

358
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:14,430
what it is. So, fully, self
owned. noncustodial has always

359
00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:17,760
been the way to go. We've always
known that that's what it was

360
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,260
because of the overhead of just
managing a single node. I mean,

361
00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,230
we are not alone when something
goes wrong and has to be

362
00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:30,000
restarted. Well kissed five
hours goodbye. Right? Yeah, it

363
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,870
takes a lot of a lot of work to
keep it all running and

364
00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:37,620
liquidity and make sure all
that's fine and there's just a

365
00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:39,060
lot of stuff that's going on.

366
00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:42,180
Dave Jones: Right? And this
there's gonna be you're gonna

367
00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:44,070
have to either be not, you're
gonna have to either be

368
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:51,900
noncustodial or have a, an AP
lot and a custodial APA API

369
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:57,420
layer in front of an institution
who has all the proper licensing

370
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:59,880
exactly as your does your your
two choices and

371
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:01,590
Adam Curry: you You can't trust
that.

372
00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:08,460
Dave Jones: No, I mean, you
can't. Well, I mean, I don't I

373
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,990
don't think I agree. I think we
mean two different things. I

374
00:25:12,990 --> 00:25:15,360
think I understand what you
mean. You mean, you can't trust

375
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,650
it? In the sense that, you know,
not your not your keys, not your

376
00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:20,010
corner?

377
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,130
Adam Curry: No. I mean, just
like, exactly. You know, it's

378
00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:25,590
like, if something goes down,
all the wallets are down.

379
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,090
Someone decides they don't want
to play anymore. Everything's

380
00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:30,480
gone.

381
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:34,050
Dave Jones: I'm a little looser
with my, you know, with that

382
00:25:34,050 --> 00:25:34,710
kind of stuff. But

383
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:36,540
Adam Curry: yeah, but I'm from
spaces. We don't mess around

384
00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:36,720
here.

385
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,670
Dave Jones: Right. Yeah, you
could have a 380. But you got a

386
00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:42,120
45.

387
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:45,240
Adam Curry: That's just saying,
I'm just saying, you

388
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,180
Dave Jones: know, the the
custodial solution, but backed

389
00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:52,920
by a bigger player. It's I mean,
that's, that's, that's achieved.

390
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:54,150
Is that 38 special?

391
00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:58,230
Adam Curry: Like a 22? LR. Okay.

392
00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:05,580
Dave Jones: long rifle. long
rifle. Yeah. So those are really

393
00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:13,530
only two solutions, the days of
the days of ln PE. And you know,

394
00:26:13,530 --> 00:26:16,380
and Alby, and these companies
that like kind of like flying

395
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:19,740
under the radar, and really told
us this, maybe he did a year,

396
00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:24,450
almost a year ago, he said, he
said, everybody is just on the

397
00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:27,360
regulatory side of things.
Everybody's just sort of like,

398
00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:32,790
doing it and hoping that
everybody doesn't notice. So in

399
00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:36,090
so those days are kind of those
are those are coming to an end.

400
00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:36,630
Yeah.

401
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:39,390
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. And but
the thing is, is not, not

402
00:26:39,420 --> 00:26:43,230
unexpected. And you know, so I
see today, I don't know what's

403
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:47,370
going on with Albie, you can
certainly you can stream and

404
00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:50,790
boost Albie, Albie wallet
fountain two lb seems to not be

405
00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:54,990
working which is a bummer
because you know, I'll be

406
00:26:54,990 --> 00:26:57,840
without a doubt head and
shoulders above everyone else

407
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:04,230
with with the with the V for V
payments. But I remember when

408
00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:07,200
everybody was integrating lb
everyone was on podcasting.

409
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,170
Nick's out social trying it out
and sharing the information with

410
00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:14,340
each other. And we got it done.
And I I know I mean, I spent

411
00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:18,300
days trying to figure out how to
how to test this Greenlight

412
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:20,310
thing, I get it. But it

413
00:27:20,370 --> 00:27:24,300
Dave Jones: is Michael, Michael
and more it Sir Michael and

414
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:27,480
Moritz are coming on the show
here in a couple of weeks. And

415
00:27:27,630 --> 00:27:30,960
you know they can they can fill
in the gaps of our knowledge

416
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,280
about exactly what is going on,
on their side, because I get the

417
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:42,330
feeling that they are just just
from what I'm seeing they the

418
00:27:42,750 --> 00:27:46,050
the reports I'm seeing from the
UK because I exchanged an email

419
00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:52,860
with them too. And I have a
sense from the outside that they

420
00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:59,340
are trying to read sort of like
rebuild the plane in flight.

421
00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:04,110
Yes, they know, they don't they
don't want to. They don't want

422
00:28:04,110 --> 00:28:05,190
to mess up anybody.

423
00:28:06,150 --> 00:28:06,690
Adam Curry: I'm not

424
00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:09,630
Dave Jones: saying there's yeah,
there's real regulatory issues

425
00:28:09,630 --> 00:28:13,350
to be done. They're trying to
like, they're putting stuff,

426
00:28:13,380 --> 00:28:15,810
they're putting solutions in
place, like all over the place,

427
00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:19,500
trying to figure out how to do
this in a way that doesn't just

428
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:22,080
that doesn't really screw
everything up.

429
00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:26,640
Adam Curry: So they I know, I
know, part of what they're doing

430
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,220
is they're going to also
implement lightning service

431
00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:33,090
providers, which makes a lot of
sense. But somewhere still a

432
00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:36,480
node has to run. So are they
going to be just an API on front

433
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,530
of green light in front of an
LSP? I mean, that's possible.

434
00:28:40,890 --> 00:28:45,600
But when I when I see things
about well, we can use the Apple

435
00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:51,090
App Store boost API like hard
No, no, right? No, just hard.

436
00:28:51,090 --> 00:28:56,370
No, no, that's not a solution.
And and you know, there's

437
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,850
there's just a lot of attention
has been focused on other things

438
00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:01,620
and here we are. A

439
00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:05,220
Dave Jones: lot there's a lot of
a lot of these problems are left

440
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:10,980
over largely uninteresting
artifacts of just LMDS

441
00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:15,840
structure. Because you know, I
don't know how core lightning is

442
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:24,390
but lnd. Is, is an age so it's a
one to one relationship. You

443
00:29:24,390 --> 00:29:28,830
have a wallet. When you have an
lnd node you have a wallet Yeah.

444
00:29:30,150 --> 00:29:34,800
And that that wallet is tied to
a to a and to an on chain

445
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,490
wallet. There's no sense of of
different wallets or different

446
00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:42,720
users all on the same on the
same node. If that was the case,

447
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,400
if lightning wallets themselves
on an l&d instance, if there

448
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:54,450
were many wallets tied to one
bitcoin back in node, and those

449
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,350
each one of those lightning
wallets had a key had a Q key

450
00:29:58,350 --> 00:30:01,950
feature for unlock or spin Then
or something like that. That

451
00:30:01,950 --> 00:30:03,810
would make all of this much
easier to

452
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:06,240
Adam Curry: do. But I don't I
don't see that happening. I

453
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,060
mean, that's not the way core
lightning works either.

454
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,730
Dave Jones: No, I don't see that
happening. But I'm just saying

455
00:30:11,730 --> 00:30:16,650
that like, that's, there's a lot
of technical debt here. I think

456
00:30:16,650 --> 00:30:20,160
that both fronts because from
the beginning, these things

457
00:30:20,190 --> 00:30:22,440
should have been designed
differently, like Bolt 11. And

458
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,900
that kind of thing. No, yeah. So
we're, you know, these are all

459
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:29,790
just in a similar way, to me in
a similar way that we're that

460
00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:39,060
Ellen URL, is a hacky workaround
for the limitations of bolt 11.

461
00:30:40,050 --> 00:30:48,030
The same thing LSPs or a
workaround for the lack of, of

462
00:30:48,450 --> 00:30:50,880
having hosting multiple wallets
on the same node?

463
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:55,590
Adam Curry: I don't because then
I don't see I don't see that.

464
00:30:56,460 --> 00:31:00,600
Dave Jones: Well, if if let's
let's say that I'm, let's say

465
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,620
that I'm pod verse, and I want
all my own all my URL. And

466
00:31:04,770 --> 00:31:10,620
here's a better example. Let's
say that I'm pod home. And I

467
00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:13,650
want to host a wallet host
wallets for all cat podcast,

468
00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:14,130
right? Well, that's

469
00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:16,680
Adam Curry: so that's something
different. We're talking to this

470
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,170
as I think this is where the
confusion sometimes comes in.

471
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:23,760
Okay, that's the receiving side.
That's the podcast or side.

472
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:24,810
Right?

473
00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:27,660
Dave Jones: But um, but I'm just
trying to sit Okay. All right,

474
00:31:27,660 --> 00:31:31,140
fine. Let's let's do pod verse
example. Some pod verse, I want

475
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:34,890
all my users to have to have a
to have a wallet, I could spin

476
00:31:34,890 --> 00:31:39,840
up a node, and then start
hosting wallets. And if they had

477
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:46,230
a key, if they had a private, a
key, a key spend or a keyed

478
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:51,750
interaction, architecture for
multiple wallets on a node, then

479
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:55,770
I could just spin up the wallet
hand the keys to the user. And

480
00:31:55,770 --> 00:32:00,240
I'm and and all I'm doing is, is
funding the node. I don't have

481
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,030
the right to spend anybody's
money. Yeah,

482
00:32:03,030 --> 00:32:05,760
Adam Curry: but that, yeah, but
that solution doesn't exist. And

483
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,880
that's not where it seems to be
going that the lightning service

484
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,720
provider part is literally
opening and closing channels to

485
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,960
each individual node that is
that is brought on either

486
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,610
through the SDK or through the
the green light architecture.

487
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:21,810
Right?

488
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,770
Dave Jones: So but it's because
of this is because it's because

489
00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:28,350
lightning nodes themselves can't
host multiple wallets.

490
00:32:28,350 --> 00:32:30,240
Adam Curry: Right. But I think
that but I also think that's the

491
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,260
right way to do it. The right
way is to have self custody over

492
00:32:34,260 --> 00:32:38,100
your node, and over everything
that's happening with your node.

493
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:42,810
But I just don't, otherwise,
this is exactly where we landed

494
00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:45,270
is then you're a money
transmitter, you you are

495
00:32:45,540 --> 00:32:49,950
transmitting money on other
people's behalf. That's why you

496
00:32:49,950 --> 00:32:52,800
can't really have a node and
have multiple wallets on it.

497
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,390
Dave Jones: Well, I think I
think we're just I don't want to

498
00:32:57,390 --> 00:32:59,610
get too wrapped up in that think
we're saying different things.

499
00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:03,510
Because I'm, you know, it's
largely irrelevant. But what

500
00:33:03,510 --> 00:33:08,130
I'm, you know, what I was
getting at is that if you if, if

501
00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:14,670
you can host multiple wallets,
that then you are your own LSP

502
00:33:15,330 --> 00:33:18,360
if the what as long as the
wallets are protected, where you

503
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,710
can't spend the funds than your
if, if I have if I have a

504
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:26,310
lightning node that can host
multiple wallets. I'm not

505
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:28,830
talking about LNBs. I'm talking
about if the lightning node

506
00:33:28,830 --> 00:33:32,880
itself implements this at the
base layer. I'm talking about

507
00:33:32,910 --> 00:33:38,310
that. If that's the case, then
I'm just done. I'm just opening

508
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:41,190
and closing channels, I don't
have the rights to spend

509
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:44,070
anybody's anybody's funds,
because I don't have the keys to

510
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:48,600
their lightning wallet. But, you
know, so the LSPs were born,

511
00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:54,720
basically as a workaround for,
for that issue. Right. But it

512
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,230
allowed allows everybody to have
their own node, because and

513
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,230
nodes can host multiple
protected walls.

514
00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:04,170
Adam Curry: Right. But I also
don't see, unless you're seeing

515
00:34:04,170 --> 00:34:06,510
something I don't see any
roadmap where that's going to

516
00:34:06,510 --> 00:34:07,830
happen. No,

517
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:09,330
Dave Jones: I don't either.
Because like I said, it's

518
00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:11,370
largely just an academic
argument. I was just, I'm just

519
00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:17,010
saying that, like, so many of
these things. Ellen URL LSP.

520
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:20,640
It's, it's just unfortunate,
because some of these things

521
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,030
were ill designed from the
beginning, and Ellen URL and

522
00:34:24,030 --> 00:34:28,800
LSPs are having to her having to
fix these fundamental flaws in

523
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,400
the architecture. Right, you
know, well,

524
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,890
Adam Curry: I mean, that's the
argument. Is it a fundamental

525
00:34:34,890 --> 00:34:38,520
flaw in the architecture? Or was
it always the intent for every

526
00:34:38,550 --> 00:34:41,070
every individual to have their
own node?

527
00:34:42,630 --> 00:34:45,420
Dave Jones: Do a maybe so that's
maybe that's what I think

528
00:34:45,420 --> 00:34:47,670
Adam Curry: the intent was.
Everybody has their own node,

529
00:34:47,670 --> 00:34:50,730
which is why we have start nine
and I'm rollin all this stuff,

530
00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:55,920
but if that's not user friendly,
it I can see a podcaster doing

531
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,410
it. But there are hosted node
solutions. I think as cheap as

532
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,240
five bucks a month, but you
know, and now with LSPs, that

533
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:11,070
actually makes it doable for a
mere mortal. Because the minute

534
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:14,460
you have to get into, you know,
Ride the Lightning and all this

535
00:35:14,460 --> 00:35:17,340
stuff, and you have to start
managing channels. It's a whole

536
00:35:17,490 --> 00:35:23,760
an all I guess all I'm saying is
that I think a lot of app

537
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,100
developers were happy, they
didn't have to learn how

538
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,850
lightning works. It just works,
you just tie it into the API.

539
00:35:30,270 --> 00:35:34,020
And now, so that's why I just
tried to say, look, I if you can

540
00:35:34,020 --> 00:35:40,350
just a little bit of just read
the docs of breeze SDK, or green

541
00:35:40,350 --> 00:35:43,740
light, and it's pretty clear
that you don't have to still

542
00:35:43,740 --> 00:35:46,200
don't have to know much about
it, I just want to make sure

543
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:51,060
that the underpinnings were
clear, because I do not see

544
00:35:51,330 --> 00:35:55,320
hosted solutions, having much of
a future

545
00:35:56,940 --> 00:36:00,900
Dave Jones: the only way they
would have a future is, is with

546
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:04,440
a raise with a change to raise
it to the regulatory landscape.

547
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,810
Adam Curry: Yeah, which I which
I can see that just want to.

548
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:08,940
That's not happening.

549
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,640
Dave Jones: Yeah. So you would
have to have it, you'd have to

550
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,830
have a listen, to be honest,
you'd have to have a US

551
00:36:13,830 --> 00:36:19,620
administration that would come
in and say and, and make it

552
00:36:19,620 --> 00:36:23,940
clear, like with merit, like you
know, like with marijuana laws,

553
00:36:23,970 --> 00:36:28,230
they're still just as confusing.
At the federal level. Nobody has

554
00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:32,640
ever fixed that. As just as
messed up as this where you'd

555
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,740
have to have somebody come in
and say this all in just fix it

556
00:36:37,740 --> 00:36:40,410
all. And say this is fine. I
just want to say Fernandes No,

557
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:43,590
see, you can't hold out hope for
that. That's, that's just kind

558
00:36:43,590 --> 00:36:45,600
of like, you know, peeing in the
wind

559
00:36:45,630 --> 00:36:48,210
Adam Curry: or head says all
this spontaneously spun up

560
00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:51,630
channels seems like a poor idea
long time as the fees rise? No,

561
00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:55,830
because they are connecting
channels, just like a virtual

562
00:36:55,830 --> 00:36:58,440
channels, like a private channel
that comes from their own

563
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,140
lightning infrastructure. So has
nothing to do with unchained

564
00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:06,540
fees. There is fee for opening
submarine swap? Yes. Not even

565
00:37:06,540 --> 00:37:10,470
that. I mean, they literally are
splitting off their own channel,

566
00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:14,400
they have channels open, you
just getting a piece of it. The

567
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,860
way I understand that, so it's
not like you're opening a

568
00:37:16,860 --> 00:37:19,380
channel and no, it's it's
immediate. The minute you

569
00:37:19,380 --> 00:37:22,950
receive a payment, it takes the
payment plus 100,000 SATs and

570
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:26,130
there's your channel. And then
if you'd want to send more than

571
00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:32,130
100,000 sets, they they increase
the channel on the fly. That's

572
00:37:32,130 --> 00:37:35,220
how it works. Now, they do take
a fee, but it's more like a

573
00:37:35,220 --> 00:37:39,900
lightning fee. And it's not an
on chain fee. But ultimately,

574
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,180
and I can just never see this
changing because you then are if

575
00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:48,330
you're not using that type of a
system, you're a money

576
00:37:48,330 --> 00:37:52,050
transmitter. And you know,
that's why Zebedee is doing

577
00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:54,600
okay, except for one or two
states because they have all the

578
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,630
licenses. And they've been you
know, they put a lot of time and

579
00:37:57,630 --> 00:37:59,280
money into getting those I'm
sure.

580
00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:03,630
Dave Jones: So what else
supports bolt? 12? I mean, can

581
00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:08,280
because if, if the other side of
this is if you're a podcaster

582
00:38:09,690 --> 00:38:18,540
and and thing like like cash app
supports both 12 Then

583
00:38:18,570 --> 00:38:20,670
Adam Curry: you'll be able to
really go around then then

584
00:38:20,670 --> 00:38:23,340
you'll be able to receive on
your cash app. Absolutely. And I

585
00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:25,200
think don't don't go Yeah, yeah,

586
00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:27,390
Dave Jones: I think that I don't
know if they support that yet. I

587
00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:30,480
don't know if any of those big
the big players like Cash App

588
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,330
strike PayPal. I don't know if
they support biltwell

589
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,370
Adam Curry: Zeus I think
supports Bolt 12

590
00:38:36,810 --> 00:38:40,050
Dave Jones: Okay, well, that's
uh, that's that's the thing.

591
00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:42,840
Adam Curry: Yeah. Hold on, hold
on a second day. Hold on.

592
00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:50,430
Something happened with my
recording. That's my damn disc.

593
00:38:50,430 --> 00:38:55,770
I think my disc is rotten. Or we
screwed now we're good. I have a

594
00:38:55,770 --> 00:39:01,080
backup recording running no
worries. But it just seems like

595
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,960
that's what everyone's waiting
for. Core Lightning has it

596
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:06,780
already. I think cord lightning
is moving ahead. They they

597
00:39:06,780 --> 00:39:09,900
already are implementing it. So
you're gonna see wallets

598
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,740
everywhere that implement Bolt
12 And that'll make the

599
00:39:13,740 --> 00:39:16,680
receiving side super easy for
everybody if you just grab a

600
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,840
wallet that supports Bolt 12 the
again the issue is where is

601
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,330
where's fountain? Are they using
lnd or core? Can they do Bolt 12

602
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,720
Or whenever Bolt 12 comes then
that'll work but in the

603
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,450
meantime, we have a little
period to bridge

604
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:38,430
Dave Jones: Yeah, I need to we
need to get an S from Oscar on

605
00:39:38,430 --> 00:39:44,940
that. LD il sir Spencer says
core lightning Eclair breeze SDK

606
00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:47,940
LDK. Which is lightning
development kit is all support

607
00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:51,750
both 12. Well, if LDK supports
both 12 Then you would think

608
00:39:51,750 --> 00:39:54,780
cash app should because it's
built on LDK Yeah,

609
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,220
Adam Curry: I don't know. I

610
00:39:56,220 --> 00:39:59,370
Dave Jones: don't know we can we
can test because yeah, I mean,

611
00:39:59,370 --> 00:40:02,640
I'm I mean we so we just closed
phase seven. So we're about to

612
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:08,250
go into Phase eight. You know
here soon and bolt 12 is a

613
00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:12,450
logical thing. Just go ahead and
start putting in there. Yeah. We

614
00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:14,160
need it's time. Yes,

615
00:40:14,190 --> 00:40:17,640
Adam Curry: it's time. It's time
Dave Jones. it's time it's time

616
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,300
to do it.

617
00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:20,580
Dave Jones: Is it time is for
our guests.

618
00:40:20,610 --> 00:40:22,680
Adam Curry: Well, before we get
to our guests, I wanted to do a

619
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,590
little plug. I have zero
financial interest, no shares,

620
00:40:28,590 --> 00:40:32,370
no nothing. I just love this
kid. I love Fernando who built

621
00:40:32,370 --> 00:40:39,000
the the pod mobile device, which
is yes, if I was a podcast

622
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,510
hosting company, I would offer
these I would pass it through

623
00:40:42,510 --> 00:40:46,560
but I would offer these to my
customers. This device is

624
00:40:46,590 --> 00:40:51,690
awesome. And I and so he sent me
the new version. I now have 10

625
00:40:51,690 --> 00:40:55,740
of these things at home in
actually I think five probably

626
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,010
cuz it keeps sending me let's
try this version. Try that. I'm

627
00:40:59,010 --> 00:41:01,560
just trying to help them out.
You know, trying to help a

628
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,280
brother out. Listen to how good
this sounds. So I got this one

629
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,960
yesterday came straight from the
Assembly factory. I plugged in

630
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,850
my mic straight in my Eevee 320.
I plugged it into the computer

631
00:41:14,850 --> 00:41:19,230
with the with the USB. And now
what he did is he made this

632
00:41:19,230 --> 00:41:22,920
little he has this little mix
knob so you could mix between

633
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:26,640
what your Hello Phoebe, you can
mix between what you're playing

634
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,570
on the computer. So it's
basically it's not just an

635
00:41:30,570 --> 00:41:34,800
interface, but it's also a mixer
and it has the it has Adam curry

636
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:41,130
approved sound in it, including
noise gate EQ. This is a minute

637
00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:44,310
of audio recorded I send it to
him this morning. And it's set

638
00:41:44,310 --> 00:41:47,010
up in literally five minutes.
Listen to this. Alright,

639
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:55,740
currently I am on D noise blue
equalizer orange. And it's on

640
00:41:55,740 --> 00:42:01,050
the voices Evie 320 That is the
microphone that I'm using. I'm

641
00:42:01,050 --> 00:42:06,150
kind of digging the sound right
now and for Yeah. That's exactly

642
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:09,780
the way you want it. So now I'm
actually just got my finger on

643
00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:14,550
the mixed button. There's the
dog in the background. Just

644
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:21,000
using it to talk over it picks
up the dog but it doesn't want

645
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,870
I'm not supposed to. See that's
completely quiet and I have the

646
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:30,300
door open. You don't hear any
background. Man. I think you've

647
00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:34,380
done it, brother. I think you
have done it. How about that?

648
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:35,640
How good is that sound?

649
00:42:36,210 --> 00:42:37,470
Dave Jones: That sounds
fantastic.

650
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:40,020
Adam Curry: I mean, he's got
some Priya and you can even plug

651
00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:42,510
in an SMB seven without a
CloudLifter

652
00:42:43,050 --> 00:42:46,530
Dave Jones: it's amazing. It's
got built in pre Yeah, it's got

653
00:42:46,530 --> 00:42:50,160
everything. Well, I mean the RA
320 is a hungry mind too. It

654
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,210
needs a lot of pre does. Yeah.
And I don't think it's as much

655
00:42:54,210 --> 00:42:56,970
as the SM seven V but it's
pretty close. Yeah.

656
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:00,240
Adam Curry: Yeah, it's it's
doesn't need as much but it

657
00:43:01,170 --> 00:43:03,480
Dave Jones: needed a cloud
lifter with my own really

658
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:06,810
before. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. If
you don't have a bit of meat if

659
00:43:06,810 --> 00:43:09,570
you're if you don't have a
decent preamp for the 320 It's

660
00:43:09,570 --> 00:43:10,530
It's suffers.

661
00:43:10,830 --> 00:43:14,070
Adam Curry: I'm just blend. You
know the price is like 320 bucks

662
00:43:14,070 --> 00:43:18,660
or something for the two mic
version. Dude, it's amazing.

663
00:43:18,690 --> 00:43:22,170
This is what I wanted to build.
This is exactly what this is

664
00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:25,350
what I wanted to build. It's
it's all DSP now. It's nice.

665
00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:30,480
It's really nice. Pretty sick.
Yeah. Got it. Yeah,

666
00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:35,910
Dave Jones: that's a that's a
you were at equalizer orange.

667
00:43:36,030 --> 00:43:36,510
Yes.

668
00:43:38,070 --> 00:43:40,590
Adam Curry: Well, there's,
there's like four different EQs,

669
00:43:40,620 --> 00:43:43,920
which are predetermined. And
that was the second step and so

670
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,760
that the other ones just came to
Bumi for me. But it's the D

671
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,810
noiser. So you select kind of a
gate, one that doesn't cut out

672
00:43:51,810 --> 00:43:55,650
too much. And then you hold and
it's just a capacitive touch

673
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,340
button, you hold that. And then
you you're just quiet and then

674
00:43:59,340 --> 00:44:02,430
it sets to the noise level and
you let go and then it's

675
00:44:02,430 --> 00:44:06,300
completely quiet. So it does all
that dynamically. It's, it's

676
00:44:06,330 --> 00:44:09,210
it's exactly what you want for
someone who just wants the

677
00:44:09,210 --> 00:44:13,740
podcast, you know, just watch
the equalizer aren't exactly

678
00:44:14,340 --> 00:44:18,960
exactly what it is. Anyway, that
I'm just saying. If I was a

679
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,690
hosting company, I would
consider offering this to people

680
00:44:22,290 --> 00:44:23,130
sell

681
00:44:23,130 --> 00:44:26,100
Dave Jones: them at a at a
discount like a starter kit.

682
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:27,090
Yeah, yeah,

683
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:30,540
Adam Curry: you can I'm sure you
can get them wholesale from him

684
00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:34,920
for much cheaper. Yeah, that's
cool. Good to go. I mean,

685
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:40,740
hosting companies, wallets, and
devices you go. If you want if

686
00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:44,040
you want to. If you want to
diversify, diversify yourself or

687
00:44:44,070 --> 00:44:47,340
make yourself unique from
others, or just try to sell

688
00:44:47,340 --> 00:44:47,940
yourself

689
00:44:52,890 --> 00:44:54,570
Dave Jones: it's always an
option.

690
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,780
Adam Curry: We're waiting to
find out who it is. We're all

691
00:44:57,780 --> 00:45:01,440
curious or we're all waiting we
have it You are with bated

692
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,360
breath. Yeah. Who's fallen down?

693
00:45:04,589 --> 00:45:08,279
Dave Jones: I had to. I had beer
with Tom Rossi from Buzzsprout.

694
00:45:08,279 --> 00:45:13,049
He was in Birmingham. We have
winds Wednesday night we had we

695
00:45:13,049 --> 00:45:16,139
had beers and talk shop and it
was fun. Great. Great to see.

696
00:45:16,290 --> 00:45:19,440
Adam Curry: Those guys are
great. Alright, so we bring in

697
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,420
our guest who's been waiting
patiently in the wings. He's

698
00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:25,020
probably fallen asleep by now.
But hey, it's been 10 years at

699
00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:29,130
least since I've spoken to him
in person on the phone. And I am

700
00:45:29,130 --> 00:45:32,790
Lou is it Adam? Well, and he's
been going through his archives

701
00:45:32,790 --> 00:45:36,150
and posting stuff on podcasts
index dot social things I had

702
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:40,440
long forgotten one of the first
people who showed up when I

703
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,370
started tinkering around with
the with Apple scripts and

704
00:45:44,370 --> 00:45:48,960
trying to figure out how to make
a pod catcher. Please welcome to

705
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,040
the boardroom, the one the only
the hero in my mind of the app

706
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,580
developers of podcasting. Hello,
Andrew Gromit.

707
00:45:57,540 --> 00:45:59,670
Unknown: Hey, guys, how you
doing? You're awake to the

708
00:45:59,670 --> 00:46:00,210
boardroom.

709
00:46:01,020 --> 00:46:03,600
Adam Curry: Sorry, sorry for
taking so long man had to get

710
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,630
that out. It's all good. I'm
learning stuff. Well, since

711
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:10,560
you're developing, developing a
web app, maybe might might be of

712
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:13,350
importance to you. Yeah,

713
00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:16,080
Unknown: yep. You're I think
you're a few hours ahead of me

714
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,360
checking out that SDK, but it's
on my list.

715
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:23,580
Adam Curry: Andrew grommet, I
have to say, I only stopped

716
00:46:23,580 --> 00:46:27,030
smoking weed about a year and a
half ago. So a lot of the

717
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:33,180
history of podcasting is fuzzy
for me. Particularly those early

718
00:46:33,180 --> 00:46:36,840
early days when I was in the
castle in Belgium and tinkering

719
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:42,000
around, tell me when we first
got on each other's radar.

720
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:48,300
Unknown: Oh, man. So maybe it
was blogger con, right in 2003?

721
00:46:49,980 --> 00:46:51,930
Adam Curry: Was that where was
the blood was? Uh, I remember it

722
00:46:51,930 --> 00:46:53,760
was was in California? No,

723
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,080
Unknown: no, it was in

724
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,760
Adam Curry: Cambridge. Right.
Right. Right.

725
00:46:57,330 --> 00:46:58,710
Unknown: I want to say that's
where we met.

726
00:47:00,390 --> 00:47:01,830
Adam Curry: And do you remember
the meeting?

727
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,230
Unknown: Probably coming out of
one of those, you know, panel

728
00:47:07,230 --> 00:47:11,430
sessions or something, but, and
I wrote about this on on, on one

729
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:14,640
of the posts on social but, you
know, I don't know something

730
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,700
like within the first 60
seconds, you know, we were

731
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:23,880
talking about enclosures. And
RSS. Wasn't that super groovy at

732
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,970
all but you know, with a little
apple script, you can, you know,

733
00:47:26,970 --> 00:47:29,970
download it overnight and sync
it immediately to the device.

734
00:47:30,210 --> 00:47:34,320
And you know, I think this was
this was before the iPhone,

735
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,890
right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was.
What did? I can't remember is

736
00:47:37,890 --> 00:47:40,680
your Dave Winer. But someone
called it the click weight

737
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,460
system, right? That was kind of
the problem. So you would click

738
00:47:44,460 --> 00:47:48,900
the download and an hour later,
yeah, no experience. Yeah, yeah,

739
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:49,380
exactly. It's

740
00:47:49,380 --> 00:47:50,400
Dave Jones: 2005.

741
00:47:50,430 --> 00:47:54,630
Adam Curry: No. 2003 2000 3003.
Okay. Yeah.

742
00:47:54,690 --> 00:47:59,250
Unknown: And I My mind was
blown, because, you know, I

743
00:47:59,250 --> 00:48:02,640
think enclosures had been around
since 2000. Maybe? Yeah.

744
00:48:04,890 --> 00:48:09,360
Adam Curry: Yes, 2000 Dave and I
were sending, like 100 megabyte

745
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:14,490
QuickTime movies to each other
through radio user land. And

746
00:48:14,490 --> 00:48:17,370
that was the extent of it.
Right? It was basically a movie

747
00:48:17,370 --> 00:48:19,530
of the Grateful Dead that he
would send, you know, playing

748
00:48:19,530 --> 00:48:23,130
some Grateful Dead song. And I'd
probably send some porn movie

749
00:48:23,130 --> 00:48:28,170
back. I can't remember back in
the day, that's always and then

750
00:48:28,170 --> 00:48:32,490
once Napster came out, you know,
it would be a song or something.

751
00:48:33,930 --> 00:48:38,760
And, and I remember that when I
saw my first iPod, I'm like, Ah,

752
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:42,750
radio receiver. Perfect. And
that's when I started tinkering

753
00:48:42,750 --> 00:48:46,890
with the script. So then what
happened? So after after blogger

754
00:48:46,890 --> 00:48:51,960
con, how did you find me? How
did we connect? Because you, you

755
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,170
and I mean, I don't really
remember all the people who

756
00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:58,530
showed up anymore. I remember
the guys from Australia with I

757
00:48:58,530 --> 00:49:03,210
Potter X, I want to say you had
iPod or lemon. I was I was

758
00:49:03,210 --> 00:49:06,660
building the directory with OPML
there

759
00:49:06,660 --> 00:49:09,270
Unknown: was probably a good
year in there of just kind of

760
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:13,020
messing around and, you know,
connecting by, you know, on mail

761
00:49:13,020 --> 00:49:17,280
lists. And I think Yahoo had a
mail list system and like some

762
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,850
of those mails I still have in
my inbox, but I Potter dash Dev.

763
00:49:20,850 --> 00:49:21,150
Yeah,

764
00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:25,320
Adam Curry: I know man. Forgot
about that. Yeah, yeah.

765
00:49:25,620 --> 00:49:29,040
Unknown: Yeah. But yeah, we
worked. We were working with

766
00:49:29,310 --> 00:49:32,250
different people. The iPod RX,
guys. I think we're in Canada,

767
00:49:32,250 --> 00:49:34,200
right? That's That's right.
August

768
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,010
Adam Curry: and Ray. Oh, all
right. Yeah. Canada, okay. Yeah,

769
00:49:38,010 --> 00:49:38,100
I

770
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:40,620
Unknown: still trade emails with
Ray of that race, the Kinsky.

771
00:49:40,650 --> 00:49:42,870
Adam Curry: Now, what were you
doing at the time? What were you

772
00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:44,880
Where were you working? Yeah,

773
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,820
Unknown: so this was like, there
was kind of a stretch after I

774
00:49:47,820 --> 00:49:50,760
remember the web 1.0 boom and
bust?

775
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:52,470
Adam Curry: Yes, yes. So

776
00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:56,310
Unknown: fondly, yes. fondly in
the wake in the wake of that

777
00:49:56,310 --> 00:49:59,880
bust? I was doing I was
consulting. Like I kind of go

778
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,760
back back and forth between, you
know, real jobs and kind of

779
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,570
messing around. So this was all
side projects stuff while I was

780
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:12,450
consulting, you know, to pay the
bills. But what we,

781
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,160
Dave Jones: what were you coding
in at that time?

782
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,450
Unknown: For I Potter are
generally, generally Yeah. Oh,

783
00:50:18,450 --> 00:50:23,340
you're gonna like this. So we
were using, like professionally

784
00:50:23,370 --> 00:50:28,140
for, I don't know, three or four
years stretch, we were using TCL

785
00:50:28,170 --> 00:50:28,830
tickle.

786
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,630
Dave Jones: Oh God.

787
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,490
Unknown: Remember that now?

788
00:50:32,490 --> 00:50:33,870
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's old
Unix man.

789
00:50:34,140 --> 00:50:37,620
Unknown: There was actually good
reasons. You know there was if

790
00:50:37,620 --> 00:50:41,460
you remember. Yeah, if you
remember cgi bin that was kind

791
00:50:41,460 --> 00:50:43,980
of state of the art back then
yes, go

792
00:50:43,980 --> 00:50:48,630
Adam Curry: to my website,
domain name.com/cgi, CGI dash

793
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:50,760
bin slash script,

794
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:53,100
Unknown: I mean, the way that
would work is you know, you'd

795
00:50:53,100 --> 00:50:56,040
make a call to the web server,
the web server would kick off a

796
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,790
Unix process from scratch, and
that would run your thing. And

797
00:50:59,790 --> 00:51:05,640
so there were these guys in the
mid 90s called NaVi soft and

798
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,970
they they were like, hey, this
tickle language is really great.

799
00:51:09,060 --> 00:51:12,210
You know, it's, it's, it's
embeddable, it's got this nice

800
00:51:12,210 --> 00:51:16,500
clean syntax, and they built a
web server around it. And what

801
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:20,460
they would do is pre load a
bunch of, you know, sort of

802
00:51:20,460 --> 00:51:24,480
clean tickle interpreters. And
those could all be run, you

803
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,540
know, within the same process.
So I mean, it's all stuff we

804
00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:30,240
take for granted now. But they
had sort of done it, you know,

805
00:51:30,330 --> 00:51:33,990
really early. And so I worked
for a few years at a company

806
00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:37,650
where we would build out
websites, dynamic websites that

807
00:51:37,650 --> 00:51:40,950
ran tickle in the in the web
server and Oracle databases on

808
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:42,390
the back end while

809
00:51:42,660 --> 00:51:46,260
Dave Jones: I was I don't
remember TCO from from web

810
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,550
stuff, I remember it as the as
the GUI the way you did GUI.

811
00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:53,850
That's right. That was the TK
part. Yeah, TK Yeah, TK Yeah,

812
00:51:53,850 --> 00:51:58,200
TCL TK was like, you know, your,
your, your GUI programming, Gui,

813
00:51:58,860 --> 00:52:00,120
Gui, x.

814
00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:03,600
Unknown: So this was like a
lesser known use of the of the

815
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,840
scripting language, but one that
you know, it was a great base to

816
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,250
build on for a few years there.

817
00:52:09,420 --> 00:52:12,720
Adam Curry: TCL now we'll we
went through that. I remember,

818
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,810
we were all Mac based. And then
you came in and you started

819
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:21,150
building the windows podcatcher,
as we call them. Yeah. That was

820
00:52:21,150 --> 00:52:23,790
I mean, that was just you or the
other Pino who were in your No,

821
00:52:23,790 --> 00:52:24,060
no,

822
00:52:24,420 --> 00:52:28,350
Unknown: it was. So the early
group it was actually there was

823
00:52:28,380 --> 00:52:32,910
there was this company in I
don't know if was Amsterdam or

824
00:52:32,910 --> 00:52:34,800
Rotterdam, but there was, you
know, in the Netherlands, there

825
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:40,260
was these guys called activate.
And a few of them. Were sort of

826
00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:42,960
interested. You know, this
wasn't a super structured thing,

827
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,660
right? A bunch of us just came
together on iPod or Dev, but

828
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,630
they contributed a few a few
guys. And it was me. And so

829
00:52:51,660 --> 00:52:52,620
Martin.

830
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,550
Adam Curry: Home Herod. Yeah, I
remember. I remember Martin.

831
00:52:56,550 --> 00:52:57,270
Yeah.

832
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:02,130
Unknown: Martin, Fen, Roy, and
Eric the young. So it was me and

833
00:53:02,130 --> 00:53:05,400
those guys and there was a guy
parrots, I had to go look this

834
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:12,060
all up. But, but and then I want
to say Ray was there a little

835
00:53:12,060 --> 00:53:17,040
bit but then he peeled off to do
AI Potter x. And then later on,

836
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,820
we had a guy from Australia
Garth kid came in and Garth

837
00:53:20,850 --> 00:53:23,970
Garth made, Garth made all the
Bit Torrent stuff work, which

838
00:53:23,970 --> 00:53:30,330
was was really cool. Right. But
um, yeah, the kind of genesis of

839
00:53:30,330 --> 00:53:33,570
it for me was I was watching all
this stuff going on. And you

840
00:53:33,570 --> 00:53:36,930
know, you had you had done some
scripting, I think, yeah. And,

841
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,700
you know, there were guys who
were interested in making it

842
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,650
work on Mac OS economy. Adam

843
00:53:40,650 --> 00:53:42,120
Dave Jones: did some scripting
this past week.

844
00:53:43,650 --> 00:53:45,720
Adam Curry: It's what I do. All

845
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:49,620
Unknown: right. But, uh, yeah, I
want to say a lot of the work

846
00:53:49,620 --> 00:53:54,900
was was on Mac, and you know, I
Mac was was kind of the groovy

847
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:57,390
thing back then, I don't know,
there was sort of the new

848
00:53:57,390 --> 00:53:59,640
hotness where all the developers
were paying attention. But it

849
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,190
was still a really low
percentage of the market that

850
00:54:02,190 --> 00:54:06,900
went and looked it up. It was
something like 5%. And so I

851
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:09,990
really was interested in Hey,
can we make this work well, and

852
00:54:10,050 --> 00:54:14,400
in Windows, and we actually
wound up using cross platform,

853
00:54:14,580 --> 00:54:19,770
you know, windowing, tech and
Python and you know, eventually

854
00:54:19,770 --> 00:54:23,370
built something that worked on
Windows, Mac and Linux, but you

855
00:54:23,370 --> 00:54:26,670
know, my focus was making sure
not just that it worked on on

856
00:54:26,670 --> 00:54:30,000
Windows but that it had a had a
GUI, you know, had a nice

857
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,490
installer, like a click click
click installer.

858
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,550
Adam Curry: Yeah. That was I
remember, what was the what was

859
00:54:35,550 --> 00:54:39,000
the Windows installer that we
all use at the time? What was

860
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:39,090
the

861
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,460
Dave Jones: no soft was then it
was one of them, or what was

862
00:54:41,460 --> 00:54:41,850
that those

863
00:54:41,850 --> 00:54:44,460
Unknown: guys are great. Yeah, I
mean, that that's what we use,

864
00:54:44,460 --> 00:54:49,110
right? I sort of had zero
interest in downloading. What do

865
00:54:49,110 --> 00:54:53,160
you call it? executables? No,
no, actually, I was thinking

866
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,160
about the like Microsoft, even
though I wanted it to work on

867
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,000
Windows is sort of by no means a
kind of Microsoft programmer and

868
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,080
So I wanted to have nothing to
do with Visual Studio and which

869
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,750
is kind of funny now, because VS
code is what everybody uses. But

870
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,800
there was this whole Developer
License thing you had to buy

871
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:15,810
from Microsoft for like, yeah.
Remember that? Yeah. And then I

872
00:55:15,810 --> 00:55:18,690
found the thing with from these
nullsoft. Guys, right, which was

873
00:55:18,690 --> 00:55:20,640
just, you know, write a few
lines of code, and bam, you have

874
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,550
a Windows Installer. So that's,
that's what we need. That's for

875
00:55:23,550 --> 00:55:23,850
us.

876
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:27,870
Dave Jones: I want to say that
there was some, and I'm trying

877
00:55:27,870 --> 00:55:32,460
to remember if the, the, if I'm
remembering this thing, if I'm

878
00:55:32,460 --> 00:55:36,840
remembering this, right, but
there was something that was a

879
00:55:37,260 --> 00:55:41,910
an installer kit that came out
like a spun off from the wind

880
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:42,840
app, guys.

881
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:44,310
Unknown: Yeah, that's what I'm
talking about.

882
00:55:44,310 --> 00:55:47,730
Dave Jones: Right? It's called
an XSL. Soft. Yeah, it was. Came

883
00:55:47,730 --> 00:55:50,970
out a llama sauce. Right. Okay.
Yeah.

884
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:53,820
Unknown: No soft, scriptable
installer system. It's still

885
00:55:53,820 --> 00:55:54,780
around. I ended

886
00:55:54,780 --> 00:55:57,330
Adam Curry: up sciences. I
remember that answers. Yeah.

887
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:58,200
Yeah, exactly.

888
00:55:58,740 --> 00:56:01,230
Unknown: So that's how we built
the installers. I think for for

889
00:56:01,230 --> 00:56:05,400
Mac it was, you know, it was
much simpler. I think there was

890
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,250
just like a, you know, you make
a DMG or something like that.

891
00:56:08,490 --> 00:56:08,940
Yeah.

892
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:15,810
Adam Curry: Mount the dmg. Yes,
yes. Oh, man. Oh, yeah.

893
00:56:15,870 --> 00:56:18,930
Unknown: But that was that was
really what got me involved was

894
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:23,730
was was also a scrap. Remember
that that expression? open

895
00:56:23,730 --> 00:56:27,450
sources are scratching your own
itch I, like I was always

896
00:56:27,450 --> 00:56:31,770
interested in listening to, you
know, body Oh, time in a time

897
00:56:31,770 --> 00:56:35,910
shifted way. I think, I think
sometime in the late 90s. Like,

898
00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:39,180
remember real audio streams, of
course, of course, it was kind

899
00:56:39,180 --> 00:56:43,140
of this protected thing. And I
really liked this radio program

900
00:56:43,140 --> 00:56:45,690
called This American Life,
right? It was, but you had to be

901
00:56:45,690 --> 00:56:49,290
sort of listening to it on the
weekend at the right time. And

902
00:56:49,290 --> 00:56:51,690
then it was an hour long, and
maybe you're, you know, doing a

903
00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:56,580
10 minute car ride or something.
And so there was somebody

904
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,820
created, this was probably not
totally on the level, but there

905
00:56:59,820 --> 00:57:03,150
was the software you could use
to download and kind of burn

906
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:06,060
gate, you could reveal the real
audio string. Yeah. So I used

907
00:57:06,060 --> 00:57:09,450
to, I used to burn those things
to disk for long car rides. So I

908
00:57:09,450 --> 00:57:13,350
kind of was doing it. Some, you
know, version of, hey, can we

909
00:57:13,350 --> 00:57:18,000
take this thing from the
internet and time shift it for

910
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,740
when it works for the listener?
So when I think when I met Adam,

911
00:57:22,770 --> 00:57:27,330
when RSS was really heating up,
and closures were starting to

912
00:57:27,330 --> 00:57:30,900
get adoption, it was sort of
like this, it was the set of

913
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:34,020
tech that I had been waiting for
to solve a problem. Some

914
00:57:34,020 --> 00:57:38,550
Adam Curry: of the early things
I remember. One was there was

915
00:57:38,550 --> 00:57:42,270
this huge ongoing conversation,
which I think might have

916
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:46,860
ultimately led to the creation
of atom. Atoms. Yes. And that

917
00:57:46,860 --> 00:57:50,730
was about the show notes. And
the end there. Were just

918
00:57:50,730 --> 00:57:53,790
developers yelling at me, like,
when you Where are you going to

919
00:57:53,790 --> 00:57:57,030
put your show notes? Because I'd
come up with the concept of show

920
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:59,520
notes. Yeah. And I said, well
just put it here in the

921
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,550
description. Then there was like
this. Well, we need a show notes

922
00:58:02,550 --> 00:58:07,500
tag. And Weiner was like, nope,
Bill, just nope, nope, nope,

923
00:58:07,530 --> 00:58:11,340
nope, nope, go out and do a
namespace. And then and then the

924
00:58:11,340 --> 00:58:15,120
atom guys came in, I don't even
know. There was a lot of

925
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,700
confusion. I really didn't know
what's going on. Just like it's

926
00:58:17,700 --> 00:58:23,130
working. I'm doing a I'm doing a
podcast, that's all or a little

927
00:58:23,130 --> 00:58:25,950
bundle of joy as we called it,
then, ya

928
00:58:26,340 --> 00:58:30,180
Unknown: know, it was
contentious. I still, you know,

929
00:58:30,210 --> 00:58:33,030
today, I remember it being
contentious more than I remember

930
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:37,170
the details of, you know, what
we were what everybody was

931
00:58:37,170 --> 00:58:38,310
fighting about. I

932
00:58:38,310 --> 00:58:41,760
Adam Curry: remember cool stuff,
like stuff that we that we

933
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,370
discovered kind of on the fly.
And here's the one I remember

934
00:58:44,370 --> 00:58:48,750
the best. Where and I don't
remember what what app it was.

935
00:58:48,750 --> 00:58:52,740
But we we figured out it was
probably not a good idea. When

936
00:58:52,740 --> 00:58:57,030
you subscribe to a feed that had
already existed for a while to

937
00:58:57,060 --> 00:58:59,850
then download all the episodes
right away.

938
00:59:02,190 --> 00:59:04,320
Unknown: I'm not you can't see
me, but I'm not nodding my head.

939
00:59:05,070 --> 00:59:07,380
Adam Curry: Because back in the
day, I mean, we hadn't there

940
00:59:07,380 --> 00:59:11,700
was. I mean, I was putting stuff
on my Mac drive. Yeah, we're dot

941
00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:15,450
Mac, I guess it was what it was
called or whatever. And you

942
00:59:15,450 --> 00:59:18,060
know, and it was it was a
nightmare, because there was no

943
00:59:18,060 --> 00:59:20,730
bandwidth. And it was just, you
know, you'd crush it trying to

944
00:59:20,730 --> 00:59:24,300
download 20 episodes all in one
go. I mean, what do you remember

945
00:59:24,300 --> 00:59:26,550
any other things that we learned
that were kind of like that? The

946
00:59:26,550 --> 00:59:27,900
early? Yeah. That's,

947
00:59:27,990 --> 00:59:29,820
Unknown: I mean, there there
was, that was definitely a

948
00:59:29,820 --> 00:59:33,300
thing. And because, again, you
know, it was about downloading,

949
00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:36,090
where's today, or network
connections are so fast that

950
00:59:36,210 --> 00:59:38,700
it's just not even a
conversation. But I think

951
00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:41,970
another big one in that same
bucket was resumable downloads.

952
00:59:42,060 --> 00:59:46,500
Oh, yes, yes. Maybe you
downloaded half and then

953
00:59:46,500 --> 00:59:50,580
something bailed out and there
was some kind of header somebody

954
00:59:50,580 --> 00:59:53,340
had to set maybe it's the range
header. So we started keeping

955
00:59:53,340 --> 00:59:56,640
track of like, okay, we've
downloaded this many bytes. So

956
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,670
that if we needed a resume, we
could just issue a range request

957
00:59:59,670 --> 01:00:00,540
to get the Rest.

958
01:00:01,829 --> 01:00:06,269
Dave Jones: Wow, it's amazing
how long it took the range

959
01:00:06,269 --> 01:00:09,839
request idea to like, become
fully fleshed out and functional

960
01:00:09,839 --> 01:00:12,509
across most of the web. And
there's still parts of the web

961
01:00:12,509 --> 01:00:15,899
that range request still not
don't work to this day. I mean,

962
01:00:15,899 --> 01:00:18,569
like, it took way too long for
that to actually gained

963
01:00:18,569 --> 01:00:20,339
traction. Is there

964
01:00:20,370 --> 01:00:23,130
Unknown: I mean, one thing I had
still is mysterious, mysterious

965
01:00:23,130 --> 01:00:26,700
to me is, you know, when we put,
you know, these, you know, links

966
01:00:26,700 --> 01:00:31,440
up that start playing some audio
file midstream, you know, you're

967
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,710
doing like a clip. And I assume
that's a range request, but

968
01:00:34,710 --> 01:00:38,640
somewhere, the, maybe it's the
client figures it out, but

969
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,910
somebody's got to kind of figure
out, you know, what the timeline

970
01:00:42,690 --> 01:00:48,690
offset how that maps to the
number of bytes? Which I don't

971
01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:52,290
know for, for stuff that's, you
know, a constant encoding rate.

972
01:00:52,290 --> 01:00:53,730
That's pretty straightforward.
But

973
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:57,120
Dave Jones: variables all over
the map, though. Yeah. But it

974
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:57,900
seems to mostly

975
01:00:57,900 --> 01:00:59,940
Unknown: work, which I'm
surprised at. And I don't really

976
01:00:59,940 --> 01:01:02,070
know how it works. But is

977
01:01:02,070 --> 01:01:04,650
Dave Jones: it does it does it
actually work? Or do we give it

978
01:01:04,650 --> 01:01:12,780
so much? So much mental leniency
without realizing it? Yeah, that

979
01:01:12,780 --> 01:01:15,990
a 32nd, or minute swing one way
or the other? We don't really

980
01:01:15,990 --> 01:01:17,100
notice. That's,

981
01:01:17,250 --> 01:01:19,170
Unknown: maybe the browser's
just doing a lot of work. And

982
01:01:19,170 --> 01:01:22,980
the network connections are
fast. I hope not. But what

983
01:01:22,980 --> 01:01:27,300
Dave Jones: is the one thing I
was curious about? Is if you go

984
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:33,300
back to Okay, the enclosure
started to happen. 2000 2001. At

985
01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:38,580
what point did it become and it
was all radio user land? stuff,

986
01:01:38,610 --> 01:01:45,030
but then what was the first sort
of big adopter? Were you were

987
01:01:45,030 --> 01:01:47,850
y'all were like, yes. Awesome.
They're in there, putting the

988
01:01:47,850 --> 01:01:49,980
enclosure tag in their feeds.

989
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,440
Adam Curry: I'm gonna say it was
WGBH in Boston, Tony Khan is

990
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:56,190
what I think.

991
01:01:57,390 --> 01:01:59,700
Unknown: Oh, good call out.
Yeah, I'd forgotten about that.

992
01:02:00,660 --> 01:02:04,410
Adam Curry: There's a guy that
to NPR station WGBH in Boston,

993
01:02:04,410 --> 01:02:08,400
Tony Khan. And he somehow came
into the community. And he's

994
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:14,520
like, this is civility. This is
fantastic. You guys are onto

995
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,220
something big. And I think he
puts up some of the first GBH

996
01:02:17,220 --> 01:02:21,480
programs on podcasting. And the
BBC came in pretty quick to

997
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,920
actually they started doing
stuff, they start experimenting.

998
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:26,970
What

999
01:02:26,970 --> 01:02:28,080
Dave Jones: year do you think?

1000
01:02:30,420 --> 01:02:35,430
Adam Curry: 2004? Five around
there, I'm gonna say,

1001
01:02:36,180 --> 01:02:37,410
Dave Jones: okay. Yeah, I

1002
01:02:37,410 --> 01:02:40,530
Unknown: mean, it was one of
those kind of, you know,

1003
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:47,250
bootstrap boot up cycles, where
we had to get the software out.

1004
01:02:47,250 --> 01:02:50,340
And, you know, Adam started
daily source code, you know, so

1005
01:02:50,340 --> 01:02:54,780
that there was content to
develop against. So sorry, Adam.

1006
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:56,520
I said content.

1007
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,030
Adam Curry: At least you didn't
call me a creator. Yeah, sorry.

1008
01:03:01,230 --> 01:03:04,500
Unknown: Yeah. But, you know, we
kind of had we kind of had to,

1009
01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:08,880
like, boot it up in cycles to
the point where I think I mean,

1010
01:03:09,180 --> 01:03:11,940
you know, we're folks like Tony
Kahn would see it and see there

1011
01:03:11,940 --> 01:03:14,700
was a distribution channel there
and that he could reach people

1012
01:03:14,700 --> 01:03:18,630
in a new way. And there was
also, you know, Christopher

1013
01:03:18,630 --> 01:03:23,010
Lydon. Oh, yeah, right. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. He ki had had some

1014
01:03:23,010 --> 01:03:28,200
kind of fallout with, with the
radio. Right, which I think he

1015
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:32,760
got fired by EUR. WBUR. Yeah, he
was also one of those folks I

1016
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:37,380
used to listen to on WBUR all
the time. And, and then he

1017
01:03:37,380 --> 01:03:43,170
showed up in, you know, the
Berkman. And I think, I think at

1018
01:03:43,170 --> 01:03:47,700
the blogger con, I was actually
handing out discs, you know, CDs

1019
01:03:47,730 --> 01:03:50,940
of the recorded interviews that
he had done with Dave Winer that

1020
01:03:51,300 --> 01:03:54,210
the David distributed to
essentially, you know, radio

1021
01:03:54,210 --> 01:03:57,000
user land users. Yeah. Anybody
else that could support

1022
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,930
enclosures, but, but just to
kind of like, turn, you know,

1023
01:04:01,110 --> 01:04:04,710
get more out into those
conversations out into people's

1024
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:06,840
hands. I think I was handing out
CDs at Bagram.

1025
01:04:10,350 --> 01:04:13,080
Dave Jones: That's funny that
this is like because I think

1026
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,900
about our own, I think about
what podcasting 2.0 You have

1027
01:04:15,900 --> 01:04:20,520
those sort of hits where you're
like, we're new people come on

1028
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,730
board and do an adoption. And
it's really exciting. And it

1029
01:04:23,730 --> 01:04:27,360
makes a big, it makes it big and
moves the needle a bit a lot

1030
01:04:27,450 --> 01:04:31,170
within the project. You know,
and it's like, you know, this

1031
01:04:31,170 --> 01:04:33,840
person adopted the transcript
tag, this person adopted the

1032
01:04:34,410 --> 01:04:36,870
chapters tag this person, you
know, you have all these sort of

1033
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:40,020
like milestone markers. Do you
remember any more of those where

1034
01:04:40,050 --> 01:04:43,860
everybody in the potter
community gets super jazzed?

1035
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:46,770
Hmm.

1036
01:04:47,190 --> 01:04:49,440
Unknown: I mean, the one the one
that sticks out, of course, was

1037
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,980
was, you know, Apple, releasing
the feature. I mean, obviously,

1038
01:04:52,980 --> 01:04:59,820
as, as, you know, we're sort of
ambivalent about it as as an app

1039
01:04:59,820 --> 01:05:03,120
bill. There's because I was
going to kind of succeed, suck

1040
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:08,070
all the oxygen out of out of you
know, that effort, but it was.

1041
01:05:09,330 --> 01:05:12,420
Yeah, it was also kind of a, you
know, it was it was an

1042
01:05:12,420 --> 01:05:17,550
affirmation that this is this
is, you know, a great idea and

1043
01:05:17,580 --> 01:05:18,300
you know, we cases

1044
01:05:18,300 --> 01:05:19,980
Adam Curry: where people started
to hate me.

1045
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:23,790
Unknown: Now it's true with the
Apple thing.

1046
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,600
Adam Curry: Yeah, for two
reasons one because I had

1047
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:33,210
brought in the evil beast. And I
think probably one of the

1048
01:05:33,210 --> 01:05:39,330
biggest issues we had was one
click subscribe, because it back

1049
01:05:39,330 --> 01:05:43,380
in the day it was go to my
website, look for the RSS icon,

1050
01:05:43,620 --> 01:05:48,870
right click copy, then go to
your podcatcher hit Add feed,

1051
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:52,800
and then paste it in, and you're
good to go. Do you think wallets

1052
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:54,510
are a problem? Now think about
that.

1053
01:05:54,870 --> 01:05:57,000
Unknown: Yeah, that was a huge
issue. And

1054
01:05:58,290 --> 01:06:03,330
Adam Curry: and so Apple came
in, and they created one click

1055
01:06:03,330 --> 01:06:07,230
subscribe, because they could
because they had no they had the

1056
01:06:07,230 --> 01:06:10,980
whole thing because they
basically because they had the

1057
01:06:10,980 --> 01:06:16,260
index, they had the database,
which I was running I potter.org

1058
01:06:16,260 --> 01:06:20,250
which was a, a world outline of
OPML files, which was actually

1059
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:25,410
pretty cool. But it didn't at
all, there was no infrastructure

1060
01:06:25,410 --> 01:06:29,130
for it wasn't it really
centralized that in a way, of

1061
01:06:29,130 --> 01:06:35,040
course. And I and this and I
learned a lot from this period,

1062
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:44,070
actually. Because what happened
was I became the face. And I was

1063
01:06:44,070 --> 01:06:46,500
going around and people say
yeah, you invented podcasting.

1064
01:06:46,530 --> 01:06:50,520
And I was like, Yeah, it's cool.
And a lot of people didn't like

1065
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:55,890
that. And I really forgot to
honor the people that actually

1066
01:06:55,890 --> 01:07:00,870
did the work. And I was just be
I was young. And I was stoned.

1067
01:07:00,870 --> 01:07:04,500
You were young. That was stoned.
And I was just happy to move it

1068
01:07:04,500 --> 01:07:06,900
forward. You know, I was just
happy to move it. And I know

1069
01:07:06,900 --> 01:07:10,680
Dave Weiner got very, very, very
angry. He's probably still

1070
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:17,640
angry. Maybe not? I don't know.
But I think that I think that's

1071
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:23,370
kind of where some animosity
came about. I don't know if you

1072
01:07:23,370 --> 01:07:25,980
ever felt that, Andrew, whether
I'm sorry.

1073
01:07:26,340 --> 01:07:31,710
Unknown: No, none at all. I
think that, uh, you know, I

1074
01:07:31,710 --> 01:07:35,910
mean, I think you lead
something, right. Like, these

1075
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:38,490
things don't just sort of
happen. Someone's gotta gotta

1076
01:07:38,490 --> 01:07:42,510
lead. And and I think he did
that. You know, sometimes I look

1077
01:07:42,510 --> 01:07:45,120
at things like Wikipedia, and
you know, you look at the story.

1078
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,280
And if you live the story,
you're like, wow, that's not

1079
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:48,270
quite how it happens

1080
01:07:48,300 --> 01:07:51,210
Adam Curry: at all. Oh, and that
was, that was the best part.

1081
01:07:51,510 --> 01:07:53,700
That was the best part because
there was this history of

1082
01:07:53,700 --> 01:07:58,110
podcasting. And, and I was like,
No, that's not how it happened.

1083
01:07:58,110 --> 01:08:01,440
I was there. So I went in and
changed it. And then all of a

1084
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,740
sudden, people like you change
it to make your role bigger. I'm

1085
01:08:04,740 --> 01:08:08,040
like, No, I just, I didn't know
that you're not supposed to

1086
01:08:08,070 --> 01:08:12,900
change anything in Wikipedia
that, you know, that that you're

1087
01:08:12,900 --> 01:08:16,380
a part of. So I had no idea
about that conversation.

1088
01:08:16,740 --> 01:08:19,710
Unknown: There was some kind of,
you know, no, no, no, no moment

1089
01:08:19,710 --> 01:08:22,680
where somebody like, did the
screenshot of the IP address.

1090
01:08:23,460 --> 01:08:23,700
Like

1091
01:08:26,310 --> 01:08:30,900
Adam Curry: Rogers Cadenhead.
Oh, jeez, that's that. Then he

1092
01:08:30,900 --> 01:08:34,890
just wrote these horrible,
horrible blog posts about me. It

1093
01:08:34,890 --> 01:08:37,140
humbled me, though, I'll tell
you that humbled me.

1094
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:42,479
Dave Jones: But so what at what
point did At what point did you

1095
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,529
start to work like, so at some
point, Adam, you hired Andrew.

1096
01:08:46,919 --> 01:08:47,189
Yes.

1097
01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:52,499
Adam Curry: So here's so Steve
Jobs called. And Eddie Q

1098
01:08:52,499 --> 01:08:54,419
actually, and says, Do you want
to meet with Steve? So I had

1099
01:08:54,419 --> 01:08:56,939
that one hour meeting with
Steve, which was mind blowing,

1100
01:08:56,939 --> 01:09:00,179
of course. And then I had one
email exchange with him

1101
01:09:00,179 --> 01:09:04,049
afterwards. And he said, I think
your idea and listen to this,

1102
01:09:04,049 --> 01:09:07,289
everybody's pay attention. I
think your idea of advertising

1103
01:09:07,289 --> 01:09:13,019
on podcast is a good one. And
I'm connecting you with Kleiner

1104
01:09:13,019 --> 01:09:15,539
Perkins and some other venture
capital guys. I know, I think

1105
01:09:15,539 --> 01:09:18,509
you should try and go for that.
And that was that was the last

1106
01:09:18,509 --> 01:09:25,259
contact I had with him. And then
I called Ron Bloom and who I

1107
01:09:25,289 --> 01:09:28,649
don't think new ideas with, and
then we went out and we raised

1108
01:09:28,649 --> 01:09:32,009
money from Kleiner and Sequoia,
and Sherpa, low and a couple

1109
01:09:32,009 --> 01:09:37,199
other high end VC firms. Now,
that's where it all kind of,

1110
01:09:37,769 --> 01:09:40,559
there was a lot of things wrong
with that. Another big learning

1111
01:09:40,559 --> 01:09:42,719
moment for me, but you know,
they're like, No, you have to be

1112
01:09:42,719 --> 01:09:45,749
in San Francisco. I was living
in London at the time. Now we've

1113
01:09:45,749 --> 01:09:48,509
got to have the office in San
Francisco was the antithesis of

1114
01:09:48,509 --> 01:09:53,489
a cool hip media companies to be
in San Francisco. And but we had

1115
01:09:53,489 --> 01:09:57,389
to do that and Andrew, I think
your employee number one,

1116
01:09:57,990 --> 01:10:02,670
Unknown: I don't know if I was,
I mean, it was Early for sure. I

1117
01:10:02,670 --> 01:10:07,530
was in Boston, right. And you
were in London. And we started

1118
01:10:07,530 --> 01:10:10,530
talking and working together on
things as early as like the

1119
01:10:10,530 --> 01:10:11,730
summer. Right.

1120
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:14,580
Dave Jones: But What year was
this?

1121
01:10:15,899 --> 01:10:22,979
Unknown: 2005? I think. Yeah.
And I think I just, I just had

1122
01:10:22,979 --> 01:10:26,609
a, you know, my family just
grown by one. Yeah. And Adams

1123
01:10:26,609 --> 01:10:29,039
like, Hey, we're doing this
thing in San Francisco. And

1124
01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:33,539
Adam Curry: didn't you? By
yourself for a while for I

1125
01:10:33,540 --> 01:10:36,780
Unknown: did. Yeah, I did. Yeah.
I was hopping back and forth for

1126
01:10:36,930 --> 01:10:40,620
for a few months or a month or
two. But eventually, we got

1127
01:10:40,620 --> 01:10:44,760
everybody out out to San
Francisco. And yeah, there. We

1128
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,020
had a little office on

1129
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:47,760
Adam Curry: Second Street.

1130
01:10:48,149 --> 01:10:50,459
Unknown: Yeah, but there was one
even earlier than

1131
01:10:50,460 --> 01:10:52,560
Adam Curry: that. It was on Oh,
goodness. Yeah. We had that

1132
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,720
little basement place. Yeah. It
wasn't

1133
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,690
Unknown: Brannan, it was it was
like, it's another B Street a

1134
01:10:57,690 --> 01:11:00,570
couple blocks over Yeah,
remember now. But there's

1135
01:11:00,570 --> 01:11:03,480
probably no more than 15 people
in that building. It was very

1136
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:07,440
Yeah. It was early days for the
company. For sure.

1137
01:11:09,540 --> 01:11:11,760
Dave Jones: 15 people and how
many of those were in sales?

1138
01:11:12,300 --> 01:11:13,140
Yeah, None?

1139
01:11:13,229 --> 01:11:17,279
Adam Curry: None? I think None.
None? No, we had, we had

1140
01:11:17,519 --> 01:11:22,169
podcaster relations, which was
the job you really didn't want.

1141
01:11:22,199 --> 01:11:26,639
So we what we did is we we went
out and we got all the cool

1142
01:11:26,639 --> 01:11:32,429
people at the time. Don and
Drew, Michael Butler, Callie

1143
01:11:32,429 --> 01:11:38,999
Lewis, Kelly Lewis, Maj.
Weinstein, the bloated lesbian.

1144
01:11:39,989 --> 01:11:43,049
And we set them all up, we kind
of ran it like a record company,

1145
01:11:43,049 --> 01:11:47,879
but fair, we set them all up
with LLCs. And we gave them in

1146
01:11:47,879 --> 01:11:51,329
advance and we paid them on a
regular basis, you know,

1147
01:11:51,329 --> 01:11:55,289
guaranteed income. And then we
went out then we went out and

1148
01:11:55,289 --> 01:11:59,369
tried to sell and that was I did
that most of that trying to sell

1149
01:11:59,699 --> 01:12:05,009
and what? There's a lot of
things we did technically which

1150
01:12:05,009 --> 01:12:08,549
I want Andrew to talk about. But
what it really came down to at a

1151
01:12:08,549 --> 01:12:13,769
certain point was discount
codes. So we figured out the

1152
01:12:13,769 --> 01:12:18,089
discount codes were a great way
to make money because the brand

1153
01:12:18,089 --> 01:12:23,159
guys I mean, even then I
remember BMW. Somehow BMW ran on

1154
01:12:23,159 --> 01:12:30,209
maj Weinstein's bloated lesbian
podcast and they cut us off in

1155
01:12:30,209 --> 01:12:33,419
the agency cut us off, no more
brands not brand safe.

1156
01:12:34,979 --> 01:12:37,109
Dave Jones: And but we'll still
be on a podcast by lesbian.

1157
01:12:37,290 --> 01:12:40,020
Adam Curry: Yeah, bloated
lesbian, which is really, really

1158
01:12:40,020 --> 01:12:46,890
a dude, which is even funnier.
And, and then we got, I think,

1159
01:12:47,610 --> 01:12:52,110
GoDaddy, probably the first one.
Because GoDaddy was just

1160
01:12:52,110 --> 01:12:56,490
exploding. And if you use their
discount code, then you'd get a

1161
01:12:56,490 --> 01:13:01,380
nice VIG for it. And that was
how podcasters were, we're

1162
01:13:01,380 --> 01:13:03,750
making, we're making money to
offset, you know, so we could

1163
01:13:03,750 --> 01:13:07,050
recoup off of what we had given
them upfront. But pretty

1164
01:13:07,050 --> 01:13:10,890
quickly, it turned out to be
just an SEO game. Because all

1165
01:13:10,890 --> 01:13:13,650
you really needed to do was make
sure that if someone typed in,

1166
01:13:13,950 --> 01:13:17,910
you know, GoDaddy discount code
that yours popped to the top, so

1167
01:13:17,910 --> 01:13:20,880
everyone, but they will do a
podcast, but people weren't

1168
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:23,550
getting the code from the
podcast, they were getting it

1169
01:13:23,550 --> 01:13:26,760
from Google search. And it
really became scammy at that

1170
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:32,400
point. And then, and then, of
course, YouTube came in, and

1171
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,690
then we had to, oh, you got to
do video, got to do video. And

1172
01:13:36,690 --> 01:13:40,170
that and for my money, it was
just all downhill from there.

1173
01:13:40,170 --> 01:13:42,690
And at certain point, it's just
like, we're trying to create

1174
01:13:42,930 --> 01:13:47,520
content as cheaply as possible,
and then put, you know, put ads

1175
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,810
all over it. It was horrible. It
was horrible. But we did some

1176
01:13:51,810 --> 01:13:54,480
cool stuff I saw you post about
the golden ticket.

1177
01:13:54,659 --> 01:13:56,579
Unknown: Yeah, yeah. I thought
it might be fun to talk about

1178
01:13:56,579 --> 01:14:01,139
that. Go for it. Yeah. So first,
an apology, right? Because that

1179
01:14:01,139 --> 01:14:04,289
whole Tech was built on dynamic
ad insertion.

1180
01:14:07,380 --> 01:14:11,610
Adam Curry: Somewhere in 2006,
we are inserting ads people.

1181
01:14:11,820 --> 01:14:12,330
Yeah,

1182
01:14:12,449 --> 01:14:15,299
Unknown: yeah, it was, I
remember having to dig around

1183
01:14:15,299 --> 01:14:21,389
and through the mp3 spec. And I
built a system that pretty much

1184
01:14:21,389 --> 01:14:23,849
lets you do everything on the
fly. We weren't doing mid rolls,

1185
01:14:23,849 --> 01:14:26,219
like we didn't, we didn't sort
of have, you know, enough

1186
01:14:26,219 --> 01:14:30,329
processing power to figure out,
you know, topic changes or gaps

1187
01:14:30,329 --> 01:14:33,149
in audio or anything, but pre
roll and post roll was pretty,

1188
01:14:33,179 --> 01:14:37,379
pretty easy to do, even back
then. And so we had a system

1189
01:14:37,409 --> 01:14:41,429
where you could, you know,
upload your your ads, you know,

1190
01:14:41,429 --> 01:14:44,579
into essentially like an ad
server. I don't know, there was

1191
01:14:44,579 --> 01:14:49,259
all kinds of banner ad server
tech floating around. And so we

1192
01:14:49,259 --> 01:14:55,169
might add one of those to allow
you to upload audio assets. And

1193
01:14:55,169 --> 01:14:59,339
then you could provision it with
you know, what, how much was

1194
01:14:59,459 --> 01:15:02,189
that? What's the term analogy
like the run the number of

1195
01:15:02,219 --> 01:15:04,799
impressions for the run or
something and the timing, and

1196
01:15:04,799 --> 01:15:07,529
you know, you could schedule it.
And we had a way to say, Okay,

1197
01:15:07,529 --> 01:15:09,839
this is a pre roll, and this is
a post roll.

1198
01:15:11,699 --> 01:15:13,889
Dave Jones: And like for the ad
campaign or whatever, yeah,

1199
01:15:13,919 --> 01:15:14,639
yeah.

1200
01:15:14,670 --> 01:15:17,340
Unknown: So we were doing we
were doing dynamic ad insertion

1201
01:15:17,340 --> 01:15:20,010
back then. Apologies.
retroactively. And

1202
01:15:20,010 --> 01:15:22,680
Dave Jones: what was the what
was the tech stack for this,

1203
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,680
Andrew? Like, how are you doing
these insertions? Oh,

1204
01:15:25,710 --> 01:15:29,070
Unknown: I wrote it. I mean, the
the the ad server stuff was all

1205
01:15:29,070 --> 01:15:32,370
open, it was called, like, open
ads, or something. I think

1206
01:15:32,370 --> 01:15:35,610
later, they became open X. But
it was this open source banner

1207
01:15:35,610 --> 01:15:40,710
ad server thing that knew about
banners. And so I kind of hijack

1208
01:15:40,710 --> 01:15:45,720
that to do our audio. And, you
know, the, I think people had

1209
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:49,170
figured out, like, for certain
conditions, you know, you can,

1210
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,380
you can just sort of concatenate
the audio, but you have to, you

1211
01:15:52,380 --> 01:15:54,930
have to separate out the tags.
And you've got to match the

1212
01:15:54,930 --> 01:15:56,820
encoding rates, and, you know,
stuff like

1213
01:15:56,819 --> 01:15:59,189
Dave Jones: that. You but as
long as you break it on a frame

1214
01:15:59,189 --> 01:16:01,019
boundary in like, Yeah,

1215
01:16:01,290 --> 01:16:03,630
Unknown: well, we weren't doing
mid rolls either, right. So all

1216
01:16:03,630 --> 01:16:07,320
you needed to do was be able to
you all you had to be able to do

1217
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:11,790
was break off the ID three tags,
since the encoding rate, and oh,

1218
01:16:11,790 --> 01:16:15,480
this was fun. Sorry, it's gonna
get a little nerdy. But go for

1219
01:16:15,480 --> 01:16:18,630
it. I think what we figured out,
or what I figured out was that

1220
01:16:20,430 --> 01:16:23,400
you you didn't, because this was
all all the audio was being

1221
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:26,610
uploaded by the podcaster. So a
priori, you didn't know what

1222
01:16:26,610 --> 01:16:29,010
encoding rates they were going
to use. And we didn't like

1223
01:16:29,010 --> 01:16:31,260
restrict them or tell them, you
know, reject files if they were

1224
01:16:31,260 --> 01:16:35,250
the wrong rate. But the ads
themselves were really short.

1225
01:16:35,580 --> 01:16:39,780
And so what we did was just
grind over each ad asset and

1226
01:16:39,780 --> 01:16:43,170
encoded and all the different
rates. And then on the fly,

1227
01:16:43,710 --> 01:16:47,370
when, when the ad request came
in, we would say okay, like

1228
01:16:47,370 --> 01:16:50,190
we've already saved the metadata
for the podcast, you know, we've

1229
01:16:50,190 --> 01:16:54,150
broken it apart into pieces. And
on the fly, we would assemble

1230
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:59,190
the ID three tags, the ad with
the matching encoding rate, the

1231
01:16:59,190 --> 01:17:04,380
audio file, and then the post
roll. And then we didn't even

1232
01:17:04,380 --> 01:17:07,500
save all that, because it would
have been a lot of space on our,

1233
01:17:07,590 --> 01:17:11,130
you know, on our hard drives.
Remember, we weren't at the

1234
01:17:11,130 --> 01:17:13,680
beginning of the company, there
was no, we weren't doing cloud,

1235
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:18,090
right? I think we even started
before Amazon offered s3. So

1236
01:17:18,090 --> 01:17:20,490
just so that we weren't getting
swamped with with kind of

1237
01:17:20,490 --> 01:17:27,270
storage. The we would write the
finished file directly to the

1238
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:33,180
CDN. Right. So the CDN is where,
you know, that final file would

1239
01:17:33,180 --> 01:17:37,740
actually appear for the first
time. And then, you know, if if

1240
01:17:37,740 --> 01:17:41,520
the same ID if the same ad ID
was requested again, which, you

1241
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:44,340
know, if you're doing the 1000s
or millions of impressions,

1242
01:17:44,610 --> 01:17:46,920
that's fine. But

1243
01:17:48,540 --> 01:17:51,300
Dave Jones: what's the point,
Adam is Akamai is that the CDN?

1244
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:51,750
I

1245
01:17:51,749 --> 01:17:53,879
Unknown: think it was Limelight
if you look at the limelight,

1246
01:17:54,569 --> 01:17:57,359
yeah. But you know, they never,
they never came back and

1247
01:17:57,359 --> 01:17:59,519
screamed at us for using too
much of their space. So I think

1248
01:17:59,519 --> 01:18:03,689
we I think we manage that. Okay.
But Adam comes to me one day,

1249
01:18:03,719 --> 01:18:06,179
I'm pretty sure tell me if I get
this wrong. It sounds right.

1250
01:18:06,179 --> 01:18:09,329
Hey, hey, can we can we can we
use that system to do a golden

1251
01:18:09,329 --> 01:18:12,449
ticket? Which is, you know, if
you've seen, you know, the

1252
01:18:12,449 --> 01:18:16,859
Chocolate Factory, Willy Wonka,
right, the idea was that we were

1253
01:18:16,859 --> 01:18:21,389
going to we were going to put, I
think we don't want to be a post

1254
01:18:21,389 --> 01:18:24,329
roll. But we're going to put
some special audio in exactly

1255
01:18:24,329 --> 01:18:29,369
one download. Right? So in other
words, if you were everybody was

1256
01:18:29,399 --> 01:18:32,009
set their subscriptions, and
they were getting, you know, the

1257
01:18:32,009 --> 01:18:35,279
downloads overnight. And so if
you're subscribed to a certain

1258
01:18:35,279 --> 01:18:37,979
podcast, maybe it was daily
source code, I can't remember

1259
01:18:37,979 --> 01:18:40,379
but it was, you know, it was it
was, well, we

1260
01:18:40,379 --> 01:18:42,869
Adam Curry: actually sold it at
one point, the whole the whole

1261
01:18:42,869 --> 01:18:47,489
idea was, you could do a
contest. And at random, like,

1262
01:18:47,519 --> 01:18:52,079
you know, we'd say the one after
1000 downloads or something,

1263
01:18:52,109 --> 01:18:56,279
then it would insert this this
audio. Yeah, that was and it

1264
01:18:56,279 --> 01:18:57,959
would be me going.
Congratulations, you got a

1265
01:18:57,959 --> 01:18:59,579
golden ticket. Yeah. And

1266
01:19:02,069 --> 01:19:05,579
Unknown: we actually did this,
right. Like, I think the hard

1267
01:19:05,579 --> 01:19:09,689
parts were, aside from what we
talked about already was we knew

1268
01:19:09,689 --> 01:19:12,299
people were going to write
little scripts and you know, try

1269
01:19:12,299 --> 01:19:14,699
to just, you know, keep
downloading and that you know,

1270
01:19:14,699 --> 01:19:19,229
so I think we wound up you know,
I don't maybe we like restricted

1271
01:19:19,229 --> 01:19:22,499
it to a specific time window to
try to combat that a little bit.

1272
01:19:23,369 --> 01:19:23,879
But we did

1273
01:19:24,660 --> 01:19:28,020
Dave Jones: we all know that we
all know that every every

1274
01:19:28,020 --> 01:19:30,900
download is an actual listen. So
you know that some

1275
01:19:33,659 --> 01:19:38,279
Unknown: days I think there was
an element of call and response

1276
01:19:38,279 --> 01:19:42,329
and that, you know, if if the if
nobody had gotten it within a

1277
01:19:42,329 --> 01:19:45,569
certain if nobody had, you know,
claimed the ticket within a

1278
01:19:45,569 --> 01:19:48,809
certain amount of time, we
probably issue another one. But

1279
01:19:48,809 --> 01:19:51,539
there wasn't actual action, the
person who got it had to take

1280
01:19:51,539 --> 01:19:55,799
and they did if I remember
correctly, but we didn't know we

1281
01:19:55,799 --> 01:19:58,019
started didn't know when you
know, there really was a random

1282
01:19:58,019 --> 01:20:00,809
number generator in there and we
didn't know what And the ticket

1283
01:20:00,809 --> 01:20:04,709
was going to be served. But we
coded it in such a way that

1284
01:20:04,709 --> 01:20:07,859
would only be served once. Like
there was even though there was

1285
01:20:07,859 --> 01:20:10,499
a content distribution network,
you know, if you looked at the

1286
01:20:10,499 --> 01:20:15,329
contents, if you looked at the
the RSS feed for the show, and

1287
01:20:16,049 --> 01:20:20,039
the URL we put into the
enclosure was not a media file,

1288
01:20:20,039 --> 01:20:23,249
right? It was a redirect or just
like we see all the time now,

1289
01:20:23,249 --> 01:20:28,349
and that redirector would only
issue the winning number, you

1290
01:20:28,349 --> 01:20:31,799
know, once, so that, you know,
it would be served once. And

1291
01:20:31,799 --> 01:20:34,619
then if somebody got it, they
claimed it, you know, you win.

1292
01:20:34,619 --> 01:20:36,779
And if they didn't, you know,
maybe we'd reset and start

1293
01:20:36,779 --> 01:20:37,889
again. That

1294
01:20:37,890 --> 01:20:40,050
Dave Jones: was just across the
whole network, or just one show.

1295
01:20:40,050 --> 01:20:40,080
I

1296
01:20:40,110 --> 01:20:42,270
Adam Curry: think it was, I
think it was a number of shows

1297
01:20:42,270 --> 01:20:44,130
maybe? Yeah, it was,

1298
01:20:44,430 --> 01:20:47,340
Unknown: I think it was probably
a small number of shows, but I

1299
01:20:47,340 --> 01:20:50,790
think we did it more than once.
Yeah. Yeah. But that was That

1300
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:51,390
was wild.

1301
01:20:51,630 --> 01:20:52,830
Dave Jones: Did anybody win?

1302
01:20:53,279 --> 01:20:58,949
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
The, I'll just cut to the chase,

1303
01:20:58,949 --> 01:21:02,279
we have to go through the whole
pod show, which later became

1304
01:21:02,279 --> 01:21:08,429
bvo. The VCs were very much in
control. Then we had to bring in

1305
01:21:08,459 --> 01:21:12,269
an Israeli tech guy to run the
tech part, which I apologize

1306
01:21:12,269 --> 01:21:15,749
for. I should have fought much
harder. But at that point, I was

1307
01:21:15,749 --> 01:21:17,939
just running around trying to
raise money all the time,

1308
01:21:17,939 --> 01:21:23,939
because we weren't making it.
And I Al was a nice guy. Al

1309
01:21:23,939 --> 01:21:27,299
cheviots. Al, number one
remember him? Yeah, absolutely.

1310
01:21:27,359 --> 01:21:30,569
And then basically, you wound up
working for him, which I'm sure

1311
01:21:30,569 --> 01:21:35,459
was marginally fun. Oh, it was
all right. Yeah. Very, very

1312
01:21:38,009 --> 01:21:44,729
nice. Nicely done, Andrew. And I
just certain point, I just left

1313
01:21:44,729 --> 01:21:46,739
that when I was going through
all kinds of stuff. Personal

1314
01:21:46,739 --> 01:21:52,379
stuff. It was it was it was
messy. Yeah. And and then where

1315
01:21:52,379 --> 01:21:54,989
did you wind up going? Because a
lot of people went to plunk.

1316
01:21:55,619 --> 01:21:57,569
Unknown: Yeah, a lot of people
went to Splunk Splunk. I

1317
01:21:57,569 --> 01:22:02,399
actually, I kind of, I think I
think the company was pretty

1318
01:22:02,399 --> 01:22:04,559
nice to me on the way out, I
think, you know, there was I got

1319
01:22:04,559 --> 01:22:07,319
some severance. And no, we
always took sorry, our people we

1320
01:22:07,319 --> 01:22:11,039
always do. Yeah, you know, some
time to some time to just be

1321
01:22:11,039 --> 01:22:13,919
available to consult if we
needed the company than

1322
01:22:13,919 --> 01:22:16,979
anything. But I kind of floated
around for a couple of years.

1323
01:22:18,209 --> 01:22:21,359
Did consulting, I wound up
working for stitcher for a while

1324
01:22:21,359 --> 01:22:25,139
as a consultant. I don't know if
you remember this, but and we

1325
01:22:25,139 --> 01:22:30,839
had made a big move. And
probably 2011 off of a server

1326
01:22:30,839 --> 01:22:33,569
farm like our own, you know, in
a colo remember colos?

1327
01:22:35,609 --> 01:22:38,159
Adam Curry: Now known as
compute, yeah, yes.

1328
01:22:39,869 --> 01:22:42,479
Unknown: We made a big move off
of off of, you know, our own

1329
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:45,539
colo into AWS. And so I learned
a bunch of stuff about how to do

1330
01:22:45,539 --> 01:22:48,839
that, and wound up working with
stitcher through the same thing.

1331
01:22:49,049 --> 01:22:51,689
You know, they were they were
just down the block from from,

1332
01:22:51,719 --> 01:22:56,249
you know, pod shows old office.
And, and I think I cold called

1333
01:22:56,249 --> 01:22:58,679
the guy and just today, look, I
know some stuff about this tech,

1334
01:22:58,679 --> 01:23:01,259
and you know, I know some stuff
about cloud, if y'all ever need

1335
01:23:01,259 --> 01:23:05,939
any help. Just give me a ring.
And Peter, the founder, you

1336
01:23:05,939 --> 01:23:10,139
know, the technical founder, you
know, ping me one day. And so I

1337
01:23:10,139 --> 01:23:13,229
wound up doing some consulting
work like that. I did a small

1338
01:23:13,229 --> 01:23:17,669
startup for a while, just, you
know, doing city guides with a

1339
01:23:17,669 --> 01:23:23,189
couple people in Berkeley. And,
yeah, more consulting. So I sort

1340
01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:25,169
of go back and forth between
consulting and startups. And

1341
01:23:25,169 --> 01:23:26,789
this was, you know, consulting
phase.

1342
01:23:28,590 --> 01:23:32,700
Dave Jones: Now, was, was all
the, was all the tech and bvo

1343
01:23:32,730 --> 01:23:35,430
plus show was at all I mean, it
was at TCL. Or was

1344
01:23:36,689 --> 01:23:39,179
Adam Curry: Python, if I recall,
was a Python. No,

1345
01:23:39,180 --> 01:23:43,290
Unknown: it's PHP, actually. The
dynamic ad insertion stuff was

1346
01:23:43,290 --> 01:23:48,060
all Python. Actually, that was
all back in scripts. except the

1347
01:23:48,510 --> 01:23:51,630
one we're pretty sure when we
wrote out the final, when we

1348
01:23:51,630 --> 01:23:55,170
assembled and wrote the file to
the CDN, that might have been

1349
01:23:55,170 --> 01:23:58,650
PHP, I'm pretty sure PHP is able
to sort of open a connection and

1350
01:23:58,650 --> 01:24:01,140
do dynamic things if you want
to, you know, at that time.

1351
01:24:02,670 --> 01:24:05,340
Yeah, yeah. Well, PHP, right on

1352
01:24:07,979 --> 01:24:11,099
Dave Jones: the end of the the
podcast is runs on PHP, it's,

1353
01:24:11,279 --> 01:24:15,359
it's super, if you want to run
with scissors and live update

1354
01:24:15,359 --> 01:24:18,299
your production. That's the
language of choice. That's the

1355
01:24:18,299 --> 01:24:20,039
way I was,

1356
01:24:20,130 --> 01:24:22,440
Unknown: there was this
framework that I never got to

1357
01:24:22,440 --> 01:24:25,320
use in any real way, but called
Laravel that I really thought

1358
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:29,490
was was nicely done on top of
PHP, you know, pretty good stuff

1359
01:24:29,490 --> 01:24:30,300
there. And so

1360
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:34,260
Adam Curry: the, where are you
now and how many kids do you

1361
01:24:34,260 --> 01:24:34,830
have now?

1362
01:24:35,909 --> 01:24:39,419
Unknown: I'm in San Francisco,
my, you know, kind of on the

1363
01:24:39,419 --> 01:24:43,649
verge or maybe now empty
nesting. So I got, I got I have

1364
01:24:43,649 --> 01:24:46,859
a couple of daughters who are
either in school or out of

1365
01:24:46,859 --> 01:24:52,019
school. But still in San
Francisco where I moved to do to

1366
01:24:52,019 --> 01:24:53,399
do pod show. Oh,

1367
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:57,450
Adam Curry: man, that's so
awesome. Yeah. I want to talk

1368
01:24:57,450 --> 01:25:06,240
about Wherever dot audio, yeah,
your your web based podcast app

1369
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:10,560
or framework I might even call
it. Before we do that. I want to

1370
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:15,690
take us back for a moment for
the song today, which is not on

1371
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:21,240
the this is not a V four v song.
But I'm going to pull it from,

1372
01:25:21,690 --> 01:25:26,130
from SoundCloud which actually
it should be V four v. Because

1373
01:25:26,130 --> 01:25:29,010
we also had something at the
time called podcast Music

1374
01:25:29,010 --> 01:25:30,960
Network. podsafe music networks,

1375
01:25:31,020 --> 01:25:32,280
Unknown: safe music. Yeah.

1376
01:25:32,339 --> 01:25:35,819
Adam Curry: And we had a
license. And the whole idea was,

1377
01:25:36,029 --> 01:25:39,239
you upload your songs to the
podsafe Music Network, and it

1378
01:25:39,239 --> 01:25:42,479
was a closed network, so you had
to register for it. And as a

1379
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:45,269
podcast, you could come in,
you'd agree to the license,

1380
01:25:45,269 --> 01:25:48,809
which meant that you would put
the song with a link to the

1381
01:25:48,809 --> 01:25:52,169
whatever the artists wanted,
into your show notes. And then

1382
01:25:52,169 --> 01:25:55,319
you could play it and then you'd
register if you played it. And,

1383
01:25:55,349 --> 01:25:58,589
and actually, a lot of people
uploaded this stuff, even some,

1384
01:25:58,979 --> 01:26:03,749
some older established artists
who, you know, who own their

1385
01:26:03,749 --> 01:26:08,549
catalogue again. And it was it
was, I mean, we had all the

1386
01:26:08,549 --> 01:26:12,209
right ideas, Andrew. Yeah, we
were just, you know, a decade

1387
01:26:12,209 --> 01:26:16,469
too early. Early, just a little
just a little bit early. So do

1388
01:26:16,469 --> 01:26:20,009
you remember cruise box? Ah,
sounds

1389
01:26:20,010 --> 01:26:22,890
Unknown: familiar. I heard it on
a podcast, but I definitely

1390
01:26:22,890 --> 01:26:24,210
remember that song. Yeah. Okay,
so

1391
01:26:24,209 --> 01:26:26,219
Adam Curry: this is the explicit
version. That's the only one I

1392
01:26:26,219 --> 01:26:29,999
have. I'm gonna play that and
we'll be right back after after

1393
01:26:29,999 --> 01:26:34,019
you listen to this. This is
going back to mid 2000s

1394
01:26:44,130 --> 01:26:49,020
Unknown: Do you remember way
back last summer when mainstream

1395
01:26:49,020 --> 01:26:55,110
radio was such a fucking bomber?
No Indian music nothing's being

1396
01:26:55,110 --> 01:27:05,220
funny. Clear Channel buggers the
bottom on it and now you should

1397
01:27:05,460 --> 01:27:14,610
have heard it rockin fucking
radio you want it? Got it? Just

1398
01:27:14,610 --> 01:27:21,750
download it and jazz no one's
gonna stop in Devon FCC this

1399
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:22,260
kick in

1400
01:27:33,329 --> 01:27:38,669
Do you remember your first
computer that pieces said was

1401
01:27:38,669 --> 01:27:44,819
lack of breaking now we've got a
Wi Fi download downloading files

1402
01:27:44,819 --> 01:27:52,049
fast and this meant everyone
who's ever done podcast each and

1403
01:27:52,049 --> 01:28:00,149
every nation reading was good
Sarum me that song saying Mashi

1404
01:28:00,629 --> 01:28:01,319
mix it

1405
01:28:09,810 --> 01:28:10,380
now

1406
01:28:53,310 --> 01:28:54,060
SEC

1407
01:28:59,130 --> 01:29:04,230
rock and luckily got it just
download

1408
01:29:09,510 --> 01:29:13,950
the FCC sticking out

1409
01:29:25,350 --> 01:29:25,890
shares

1410
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:41,190
Adam Curry: yeah cruise box

1411
01:29:41,639 --> 01:29:42,419
Unknown: nice.

1412
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:45,360
I was like an anthem. It

1413
01:29:45,359 --> 01:29:48,269
Adam Curry: was and we had but
we have the same vibe now. You

1414
01:29:48,269 --> 01:29:51,959
know. We have a lot of that that
vibe is still there. I love it.

1415
01:29:51,989 --> 01:29:54,869
I love it a lot and but I can't
imagine I can. I'm just

1416
01:29:54,869 --> 01:29:59,129
realizing now that I didn't balk
at the word pod. They pod it

1417
01:29:59,159 --> 01:30:01,379
really? Okay. Had I even allowed
that to happen?

1418
01:30:01,860 --> 01:30:03,420
Dave Jones: No, that slipped
through you did

1419
01:30:04,169 --> 01:30:04,949
Unknown: where it started.

1420
01:30:06,299 --> 01:30:08,759
Adam Curry: I don't know. I
don't know what it was good

1421
01:30:08,759 --> 01:30:11,819
times good times. And, and I
love that we're here we are

1422
01:30:11,819 --> 01:30:16,229
again. And now we have payments
and splits and, and lots of

1423
01:30:16,229 --> 01:30:19,589
apps. And we're independent. You
know, we're not. We're not

1424
01:30:19,589 --> 01:30:24,599
beholden to VC in general. We're
not beholden to Apple or

1425
01:30:24,599 --> 01:30:27,389
anybody. We're rebels.

1426
01:30:27,660 --> 01:30:34,200
Dave Jones: That's right.
Rebels. So umbilical? Oh, yeah.

1427
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:38,760
Really? The the heart of what?
That's where you're living at,

1428
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:42,090
right? I mean, as far as a core
goes, yeah,

1429
01:30:42,570 --> 01:30:46,020
Unknown: there's there's sort of
three, three things. But that's

1430
01:30:46,020 --> 01:30:49,680
where really where, you know, I
stepped into the social room.

1431
01:30:51,510 --> 01:30:56,040
Because I got interested in, you
know, this kind of goes to what

1432
01:30:56,040 --> 01:31:00,840
Adam was just saying, right? I
like, as a developer, I sort of

1433
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,350
balk at the idea of having to go
ask someone's permission to put

1434
01:31:04,350 --> 01:31:07,440
some new code into the world.
And this, you know, this isn't

1435
01:31:07,440 --> 01:31:11,040
new, but the app stores? I don't
know, I feel like they, they

1436
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,120
kind of, I don't know, pull the
wool or something. Like,

1437
01:31:15,150 --> 01:31:17,190
suddenly everybody thought,
well, this is just how you do

1438
01:31:17,190 --> 01:31:21,180
things. Right. And it is where
the audience is. So I kind of

1439
01:31:21,180 --> 01:31:25,860
get it. But it was really a I
was never quite down with with

1440
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:30,720
doing app development. And, you
know, I think there's some

1441
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:34,770
kindred spirits in the
community. I was listening to

1442
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:35,370
Oh, yeah, he's

1443
01:31:35,609 --> 01:31:39,929
Dave Jones: real. samsat Yes,
exactly. Right now, you

1444
01:31:39,930 --> 01:31:43,830
Unknown: know, that was the call
out I was about to do. And I was

1445
01:31:43,830 --> 01:31:47,190
listening to Sam talk about it.
And I like instantly like, Amen,

1446
01:31:47,190 --> 01:31:51,750
brother. You know, yeah. So, so
that's kind of where I was

1447
01:31:51,750 --> 01:31:54,270
coming from. And, and I started
thinking, Alright, well, looking

1448
01:31:54,480 --> 01:31:58,680
browsers have an audio tag, I
can browsers can play audio.

1449
01:31:59,250 --> 01:32:05,340
And, you know, I was thinking,
Okay, well, how do I get RSS

1450
01:32:05,340 --> 01:32:08,220
feeds? And maybe I'll write some
kind of server based thing that

1451
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:12,090
parses the RSS and returns JSON
and, you know, mess around with

1452
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:14,730
that for a while. And then I
thought, wait a second, like you

1453
01:32:14,730 --> 01:32:17,580
put a parser in a browser, like
parsers. There's a remember

1454
01:32:17,580 --> 01:32:18,180
Ajax.

1455
01:32:20,189 --> 01:32:22,889
Adam Curry: Wow, let me stop
moving on the screen.

1456
01:32:24,420 --> 01:32:28,170
Dave Jones: Okay, let me stop
you real quick, every everybody

1457
01:32:28,170 --> 01:32:32,760
who has gone through, like,
everybody who's who's a web

1458
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:36,360
developer has gone through this
thing. When they get into RSS,

1459
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:39,240
and you're like, you're like,
oh, I can, I'll just build it

1460
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:41,370
all in the browser. And then you
start building, you start

1461
01:32:41,370 --> 01:32:43,980
writing stuff, and then all of a
sudden, it dawns on you same

1462
01:32:43,980 --> 01:32:48,780
origin policy, he's gonna kill
you. And you're like, Oh, crap,

1463
01:32:48,780 --> 01:32:49,980
it was such a good idea.

1464
01:32:50,339 --> 01:32:52,739
Unknown: Right? Well, that, I
mean, that's the setup really is

1465
01:32:52,739 --> 01:32:56,129
umbilical was, okay, there are
certain things we just can't do

1466
01:32:56,129 --> 01:33:01,859
on the browser. If you want to
pull an RSS feed from some other

1467
01:33:01,859 --> 01:33:07,139
domain, and they haven't set
course headers, you're dead. If

1468
01:33:07,139 --> 01:33:11,849
you and I know this one's
controversial, right. But if you

1469
01:33:11,879 --> 01:33:17,219
are serving your browser
application from HTTPS, and the

1470
01:33:17,219 --> 01:33:21,689
feed is on HTTP, you know, most
browsers today will refuse to

1471
01:33:21,689 --> 01:33:26,399
pull it content. Yep, mixed
content. And so I started

1472
01:33:26,399 --> 01:33:29,969
thinking Look, I don't want to
give up on this idea of being

1473
01:33:29,969 --> 01:33:34,169
able to do everything in the
browser but and this was was I

1474
01:33:34,169 --> 01:33:37,739
think my first post on podcast
index social was hey look, if we

1475
01:33:37,739 --> 01:33:41,189
can't eliminate the server
completely, let's just make it

1476
01:33:41,249 --> 01:33:45,449
you know, open source cheap you
know, anyone can run it and

1477
01:33:45,449 --> 01:33:48,719
let's just put as little as
possible into the server side

1478
01:33:49,019 --> 01:33:53,069
right let's just put let's just
make it as minimal as possible

1479
01:33:53,069 --> 01:33:56,669
let's it won't have any state
that with an asterisk being

1480
01:33:56,669 --> 01:33:59,099
talked about that but you know,
it won't you won't log in and

1481
01:33:59,099 --> 01:34:02,849
have an account there all it's
only it's only purpose in life

1482
01:34:02,849 --> 01:34:05,399
is just to kind of bridge the
gap or or be your lifeline or

1483
01:34:05,399 --> 01:34:09,869
umbilical cord. I'm not a
branding guy but like I got it I

1484
01:34:09,869 --> 01:34:13,019
got it. Yeah, yeah, but that was
the idea. Yeah, and so I started

1485
01:34:13,019 --> 01:34:14,399
there and

1486
01:34:15,720 --> 01:34:18,690
Dave Jones: and so you're saying
you know your your idea is like

1487
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:22,200
just make it where I can I can
just run it on a $5 a month lens

1488
01:34:22,440 --> 01:34:23,070
and done with

1489
01:34:23,069 --> 01:34:25,289
Unknown: it and yeah, I think I
even put some code in the

1490
01:34:25,289 --> 01:34:28,829
project that shows you how to do
that with you can run it for

1491
01:34:28,829 --> 01:34:31,409
free like there's a few
different gets a little in the

1492
01:34:31,409 --> 01:34:33,449
weeds but there's a few
different ways you can run

1493
01:34:33,449 --> 01:34:35,879
something like this like you can
run it as an edge worker whose

1494
01:34:35,879 --> 01:34:41,549
only job is to fix the the cores
and mixed content issues. And

1495
01:34:41,549 --> 01:34:45,749
then it's pretty much free I
mean, I think den Dino lets you

1496
01:34:45,749 --> 01:34:49,109
run Dino workers for free and
Cloudflare it's cheap, if not

1497
01:34:49,109 --> 01:34:55,889
free. But you know, that gets
you part of the way there if you

1498
01:34:55,889 --> 01:34:58,379
want to do stuff and this was
all like later learning for me

1499
01:34:58,379 --> 01:35:01,289
once I once I hopped on the into
the community and started

1500
01:35:01,289 --> 01:35:04,619
learning about how all the other
tags work. If you want to do

1501
01:35:04,619 --> 01:35:08,579
stuff like offline Web Push
notification, you have to be

1502
01:35:08,579 --> 01:35:13,439
running all the time. You know,
slurping down John Spurlock's,

1503
01:35:13,469 --> 01:35:16,529
you know, pod ping feed, I mean,
unless you want to run a hive

1504
01:35:16,529 --> 01:35:20,489
node yourself or something, but
for that, you need to be running

1505
01:35:20,489 --> 01:35:24,569
all the time. And that is five
bucks, you know, the low low

1506
01:35:24,569 --> 01:35:27,179
price of five bucks a month to
have an always on server with

1507
01:35:27,179 --> 01:35:31,439
digital ocean. And then you can
basically serve as a relay for

1508
01:35:31,439 --> 01:35:34,019
your users who want offline
notifications.

1509
01:35:35,189 --> 01:35:39,149
Dave Jones: That that's, I mean,
that's a big deal. It's a big

1510
01:35:39,149 --> 01:35:43,019
deal that you've done this,
because that's a that's the

1511
01:35:43,619 --> 01:35:48,149
things like this, I see things
like umbilical, the same way I

1512
01:35:48,149 --> 01:35:53,159
see. Britt, like bridges that
like like the activity pub

1513
01:35:53,159 --> 01:35:57,839
bridge, and things like that,
where you're taking your, you're

1514
01:35:57,839 --> 01:36:00,659
trying to, you know, bridge,
bridging One Pro thing to

1515
01:36:00,659 --> 01:36:07,889
another, is a way to get
developers that you know, are

1516
01:36:07,889 --> 01:36:12,599
over here, to have access to a
world that you're trying to get

1517
01:36:12,599 --> 01:36:16,889
them access to. Because you
there's tons of web developers

1518
01:36:16,889 --> 01:36:21,599
out there who are really good at
web, but they're just no good at

1519
01:36:21,599 --> 01:36:25,379
running servers. And when you
get when you can, when you can

1520
01:36:25,409 --> 01:36:29,369
make all of that sort of
simplified for them, it makes it

1521
01:36:29,369 --> 01:36:33,539
you open yourself up, you open
the whole world up to lots of

1522
01:36:33,749 --> 01:36:36,389
new developers, they can coat do
cool stuff that they couldn't

1523
01:36:36,389 --> 01:36:37,139
otherwise do.

1524
01:36:38,159 --> 01:36:43,229
Unknown: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And, yeah, so I mean, that's

1525
01:36:43,229 --> 01:36:47,789
just a piece of the puzzle, but
that, you know, be able to kind

1526
01:36:47,789 --> 01:36:54,629
of make fully what PWA is what I
guess we say, but being able to

1527
01:36:54,629 --> 01:36:58,589
make these sort of PWA players
not have to depend on a central

1528
01:36:58,589 --> 01:37:01,529
system, right? Because at the
end of the day, this is, this is

1529
01:37:01,529 --> 01:37:04,439
kind of like, I was trying to
think of like, what's a good

1530
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:09,809
metaphor for what wherever tries
to do, or any other consumer of

1531
01:37:09,809 --> 01:37:13,679
umbilical, and it's really like
a, like a, like a noncustodial

1532
01:37:13,679 --> 01:37:19,769
podcast app. Yeah. It's like,
everything you do is in your

1533
01:37:19,769 --> 01:37:22,799
browser, and not just like your
your browser, once you log into

1534
01:37:22,799 --> 01:37:26,639
Google, it's that browser, which
means you want to test stuff or

1535
01:37:26,639 --> 01:37:28,799
mess around or listen to
something and immediately throw

1536
01:37:28,799 --> 01:37:32,189
away the history of what you
listen to, you can do it in

1537
01:37:32,429 --> 01:37:35,969
incognito mode, right? Like it,
browsers are amazing today, I

1538
01:37:35,969 --> 01:37:37,919
don't know if you know, people
dig around. And, um, but they're

1539
01:37:37,919 --> 01:37:41,939
incredibly capable, you can
build a fully capable app, you

1540
01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:44,549
know, with the exception to
these umbilical use cases,

1541
01:37:45,509 --> 01:37:48,719
browser side. And so you
basically have everything you

1542
01:37:48,719 --> 01:37:51,869
need, you can kind of run the
developer tools and watch the

1543
01:37:51,869 --> 01:37:55,199
network traffic, and you'll see
that the only connections out

1544
01:37:55,229 --> 01:38:00,299
or, you know, to the podcasting
systems, you know, to H to kind

1545
01:38:00,299 --> 01:38:04,079
of like the wherever domain just
to check for updates, you know,

1546
01:38:04,109 --> 01:38:06,959
or if you're using umbilical to
do things like cores and

1547
01:38:06,959 --> 01:38:11,099
whatnot, it'll it'll reach out
to that for proxying. But you

1548
01:38:11,099 --> 01:38:13,529
know, there's, there's no
phoning home, there's sort of no

1549
01:38:14,189 --> 01:38:16,739
extraneous traffic on the
network. It's completely

1550
01:38:16,799 --> 01:38:17,519
isolated.

1551
01:38:17,580 --> 01:38:19,590
Adam Curry: Where do you want to
see this go? I mean, is this

1552
01:38:19,620 --> 01:38:22,680
pure altruism? Is it just for
yourself? I mean, obviously,

1553
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:25,230
it's like, I see it as a
framework, because, you know,

1554
01:38:25,410 --> 01:38:28,740
there's not a lot of design in
it. Yeah, yeah. No, I

1555
01:38:28,740 --> 01:38:32,220
Unknown: mean, it's like a
really good question. It sort of

1556
01:38:32,220 --> 01:38:34,890
serves a few purposes. You know,
one is for me, it's like going

1557
01:38:34,890 --> 01:38:38,610
to the gym for, you know, for
programming. So it's just kind

1558
01:38:38,610 --> 01:38:40,080
of a way to learn new things.

1559
01:38:40,079 --> 01:38:42,659
Adam Curry: And some guys go to
Pornhub. Some Yes. Go to the

1560
01:38:42,659 --> 01:38:44,459
gym. Andrew builds cores

1561
01:38:44,460 --> 01:38:48,570
Unknown: apps. Oh, it's true.
It's true. But I also, it's my

1562
01:38:48,570 --> 01:38:52,710
daily driver, you know, I
listened to it. It's obviously

1563
01:38:52,740 --> 01:38:55,020
really easily and cheaply
shareable, because it just

1564
01:38:55,020 --> 01:38:57,690
downloads as a static, you know,
it's just a bunch of static

1565
01:38:57,690 --> 01:39:00,540
files that download. So, you
know, I'm not about to open a

1566
01:39:00,540 --> 01:39:03,480
customer service and a sales
team and all of that stuff. But,

1567
01:39:03,900 --> 01:39:06,600
you know, it works. It's there.
Why not put it out there.

1568
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:09,750
Adam Curry: So are you are you
going to check out the

1569
01:39:09,750 --> 01:39:10,890
greenlight API?

1570
01:39:11,220 --> 01:39:14,910
Unknown: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
I love you. Yeah, for sure. No,

1571
01:39:14,909 --> 01:39:17,339
Dave Jones: I just settings page
and wherever that audio just

1572
01:39:17,339 --> 01:39:18,569
cracks me It's amazing.

1573
01:39:20,369 --> 01:39:26,489
Adam Curry: Do you want us your
search provider? URL? Yeah,

1574
01:39:26,519 --> 01:39:28,679
Dave Jones: never all these
strings. Yeah. Well, so

1575
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:31,530
Unknown: the idea was, some of
that definitely needs cleaning

1576
01:39:31,530 --> 01:39:34,740
up. But the idea was, you know,
anybody could just like just

1577
01:39:34,740 --> 01:39:37,830
like with the fediverse and
Mastodon, right, like Mastodon

1578
01:39:37,830 --> 01:39:41,280
is the thing that many people
install and and, you know,

1579
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:45,120
people go to different
mastodons. So here, if a bunch

1580
01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:47,910
of people installed umbilical
then and they wanted us wherever

1581
01:39:47,910 --> 01:39:51,810
they could point at that one.
You know where you can. I think

1582
01:39:51,810 --> 01:39:55,200
I've invited people on the
social to ping me. There's a

1583
01:39:55,230 --> 01:39:59,760
there's a created like a link, a
way to create a link where if I

1584
01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:02,760
just send you that link and you
click it, it'll pre populate all

1585
01:40:02,760 --> 01:40:07,680
the fields, so you don't have to
mess with it. Right. But yeah,

1586
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:13,020
that's that's kind of where that
is. One thing I wanted to call

1587
01:40:13,020 --> 01:40:16,590
out was the other piece of all
this is, you know, if you kind

1588
01:40:16,590 --> 01:40:19,590
of my vision for all this stuff
is that it's it's open and it's

1589
01:40:19,590 --> 01:40:22,590
distributed and and you can't go
shut it down. And I think that

1590
01:40:22,590 --> 01:40:25,350
the GUID, it became really clear
to me early on that the the

1591
01:40:25,350 --> 01:40:30,090
podcast 2.0 guid would play an
important role in this. And so

1592
01:40:30,090 --> 01:40:32,430
that's what that's kind of was
the genesis of the lookup

1593
01:40:32,430 --> 01:40:35,970
service. Right? Which is what
that's what what does it look up

1594
01:40:35,970 --> 01:40:38,190
that wherever that audio, but
it's really just, you know, a

1595
01:40:38,190 --> 01:40:41,130
subset of what you're building
in the podcast index. And the

1596
01:40:41,130 --> 01:40:45,030
idea there was just again, with
with cores or developer secrets,

1597
01:40:45,030 --> 01:40:48,330
I didn't want that to get in the
way of people using the goods,

1598
01:40:49,020 --> 01:40:52,890
right, because if you throw a
GUID into your, into your listen

1599
01:40:52,890 --> 01:40:55,230
link, or whatever kind of
archival link you want to share

1600
01:40:55,230 --> 01:41:00,030
out to the world. And you know,
if the if the person if the

1601
01:41:00,030 --> 01:41:03,570
podcaster changes hosts that we
can use that guid to look up

1602
01:41:03,570 --> 01:41:06,390
what their current URL for their
feed is. And then you can

1603
01:41:06,390 --> 01:41:09,270
publish out these sort of
durable links. And we're not

1604
01:41:09,270 --> 01:41:11,880
relying on at the end of the
day, this goes back to like, if

1605
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:14,940
you look at, you know, any of
the links, you'll click off of

1606
01:41:14,940 --> 01:41:19,590
episodes, FM, you know, a lot of
them have system specific

1607
01:41:19,590 --> 01:41:22,740
identifiers in them. Which, you
know, it's cool, like, it's

1608
01:41:22,740 --> 01:41:25,350
always a problem, but I was I
was hoping to not have to do

1609
01:41:25,350 --> 01:41:28,770
that. Because the whole vibe of
wherever is just an umbilical is

1610
01:41:28,770 --> 01:41:31,350
just that it's distributed,
right? There's no, there's no,

1611
01:41:31,980 --> 01:41:34,080
there's no flex point to shut
things down from

1612
01:41:35,039 --> 01:41:37,679
Dave Jones: I find this, this is
the case with a lot of things

1613
01:41:37,679 --> 01:41:40,139
that we open, open source, I
don't know what your thoughts

1614
01:41:40,139 --> 01:41:48,539
are, but you have a you have a
vision of a way. Okay, we'll let

1615
01:41:48,539 --> 01:41:52,169
me say it this way, you get into
a mindset, where everything's

1616
01:41:52,169 --> 01:41:55,829
gonna be open each day, just
after a while of doing things of

1617
01:41:55,859 --> 01:41:58,739
developing that way, that's just
the way you think you're like,

1618
01:41:58,769 --> 01:42:04,139
Okay, I'm doing this, and it's
going to be usable by many

1619
01:42:04,139 --> 01:42:07,469
people. So everybody needs to be
able to run it themselves. So

1620
01:42:07,469 --> 01:42:14,069
you just sort of always build in
that mode. And then, but you but

1621
01:42:14,069 --> 01:42:18,239
there's this other sort of
counterbalance, where people

1622
01:42:18,959 --> 01:42:23,249
where people don't necessarily
get on board, they just use the

1623
01:42:23,249 --> 01:42:27,449
thing that you build on your own
on your own system. And they

1624
01:42:27,449 --> 01:42:29,639
don't, they don't run it
themselves. So I'm thinking

1625
01:42:29,639 --> 01:42:37,409
about things like the the pocket
the activity pub bridge, from

1626
01:42:37,409 --> 01:42:41,129
podcast index, I mean, it's, you
could go and download that right

1627
01:42:41,129 --> 01:42:44,729
now and run it on your own
system. Anybody can but but the

1628
01:42:44,729 --> 01:42:47,759
likelihood of somebody doing
that is going to is is

1629
01:42:47,759 --> 01:42:50,789
realistically very tiny. They're
just going to use the one that

1630
01:42:50,789 --> 01:42:54,029
we're running. And the one and
when us when you're talking

1631
01:42:54,029 --> 01:42:56,909
about goods, you're reminded me
of this, that, you know, the

1632
01:42:56,909 --> 01:43:00,479
whole idea of goods is that
everybody keeps these databases

1633
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:05,279
of goods. Everybody reads them,
we all so nobody needs to do a

1634
01:43:05,309 --> 01:43:10,739
quote unquote, guid look up from
some central repository, because

1635
01:43:10,739 --> 01:43:14,789
the goods are just all there for
us all to see all the time. We

1636
01:43:14,789 --> 01:43:18,779
all need to have databases of
goods. But but I don't.

1637
01:43:19,409 --> 01:43:22,349
Adam Curry: Honey, honey, we
need a database of goods. Yeah,

1638
01:43:22,379 --> 01:43:22,619
right.

1639
01:43:23,819 --> 01:43:26,279
Unknown: I guess I kind of
realized that later, is a lot of

1640
01:43:26,279 --> 01:43:28,949
the a lot of the companies are
just running syncs behind the

1641
01:43:28,949 --> 01:43:33,629
scenes and working from their
own copyright. Yeah,

1642
01:43:33,660 --> 01:43:37,800
Dave Jones: and I wish you know,
because I don't want I don't

1643
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:41,250
want us to become this has
always been the difficulty with

1644
01:43:41,250 --> 01:43:46,380
podcasts. Index is that we, we
want everybody else to do these

1645
01:43:46,380 --> 01:43:49,230
things, too. We don't want you
know, I don't want to become the

1646
01:43:49,230 --> 01:43:53,610
thing that everybody depends on
for the for for data, you know,

1647
01:43:53,820 --> 01:43:57,870
but but there's that it makes,
you know, but you can't force

1648
01:43:57,870 --> 01:44:01,650
that. I mean, it, it just, it
has to be an organic thing. But

1649
01:44:01,650 --> 01:44:03,660
a lot of times, it's just I will
say that way.

1650
01:44:04,049 --> 01:44:08,789
Unknown: I definitely appreciate
the, you know, the algo or

1651
01:44:08,789 --> 01:44:11,939
whatever that you use to create
the GUID is just based on, you

1652
01:44:11,939 --> 01:44:16,799
know, what is the first URL you
encounter for that feed? You

1653
01:44:16,799 --> 01:44:21,929
know, maybe we could come up
with some way to allow those

1654
01:44:22,079 --> 01:44:25,349
updates to be broadcast, right.
Like right now, I think, you

1655
01:44:25,349 --> 01:44:29,579
know, the podcast index is
authoritative. Essentially, we

1656
01:44:29,579 --> 01:44:32,489
treat it as authoritative for
keeping track of, you know,

1657
01:44:32,489 --> 01:44:36,959
those guid update damn right.
But maybe it doesn't have to be

1658
01:44:36,959 --> 01:44:38,609
I mean, if that's what you're
talking about,

1659
01:44:38,609 --> 01:44:41,009
Adam Curry: eventually, you
know, eventually it has to be

1660
01:44:41,009 --> 01:44:43,139
just a thing that's out there
that it exists

1661
01:44:43,140 --> 01:44:47,010
Unknown: means. Yeah, right now
the resolver system I built you

1662
01:44:47,010 --> 01:44:50,550
know, it just pulls the weekly
exports right but that's an s3

1663
01:44:50,550 --> 01:44:53,700
bucket now, right? It's going to
it can live forever if we want

1664
01:44:53,730 --> 01:44:58,620
as effective for our purposes
forever. We can you know, export

1665
01:44:58,620 --> 01:45:01,680
out copies of the s3 box I think
there's a way to do that if you

1666
01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:02,670
want to spend the money.

1667
01:45:04,020 --> 01:45:06,180
Dave Jones: Yeah, I would like
to do that I would I would like

1668
01:45:06,180 --> 01:45:08,490
to start exporting this stuff
out through in the in

1669
01:45:08,490 --> 01:45:12,000
eventually. You know,

1670
01:45:12,180 --> 01:45:15,030
Adam Curry: I've got don't want
that on the fediverse. Dave

1671
01:45:15,959 --> 01:45:18,659
Dave Jones: on the shoe. Yeah,

1672
01:45:18,689 --> 01:45:20,999
Adam Curry: can't that be an
activity pub and you just look

1673
01:45:20,999 --> 01:45:22,799
it up, and it just shows up
somehow.

1674
01:45:23,399 --> 01:45:26,429
Unknown: It just, it just all
works is it actually it feels

1675
01:45:26,429 --> 01:45:31,949
more like a blockchain kind of
thing. Like the podcast or, you

1676
01:45:31,949 --> 01:45:36,209
know, broadcasts a new URL
whenever they change, you know,

1677
01:45:36,209 --> 01:45:40,229
hosts and that there's some, you
know, historical and immutable

1678
01:45:40,439 --> 01:45:41,369
history of in,

1679
01:45:41,849 --> 01:45:43,379
Dave Jones: but oh, one of the

1680
01:45:43,380 --> 01:45:45,540
Adam Curry: making an ordinal
make it an ordinal.

1681
01:45:48,630 --> 01:45:54,210
Dave Jones: A rune, the rune
that was one of the original,

1682
01:45:54,240 --> 01:45:57,840
like, we had some, like for lack
of a better term of verbs that

1683
01:45:57,840 --> 01:46:02,940
we wanted to use in, in pod
paying, you know, for a day live

1684
01:46:02,940 --> 01:46:05,820
live. And that can change was
one of the ones that we

1685
01:46:05,850 --> 01:46:09,870
discussed a lot was, you know, K
feed change this, this, this

1686
01:46:09,870 --> 01:46:13,290
show moved from this host to
this other host? Yeah, you know,

1687
01:46:13,290 --> 01:46:18,000
there's a, there's a, there's a
spam Enos problem that you like,

1688
01:46:18,450 --> 01:46:21,510
yeah, a fraud issue that you
would have to overcome? And

1689
01:46:21,510 --> 01:46:24,150
you'd have to say, Okay, well,
we're not going to trust

1690
01:46:24,180 --> 01:46:27,510
anything that's not coming from
these sources. And so that I

1691
01:46:27,510 --> 01:46:30,450
think that kind of put a damper
on it, but didn't know if I'm, I

1692
01:46:30,450 --> 01:46:33,630
agree with totally with that
thought that would be such a

1693
01:46:33,630 --> 01:46:36,300
killer use case. Because then
you can see that come through,

1694
01:46:36,300 --> 01:46:39,180
and you're like, Okay, well,
this is, this is authoritative.

1695
01:46:39,180 --> 01:46:41,460
This is the thing, you know,
well, now we all just update our

1696
01:46:41,460 --> 01:46:43,590
feeds. And we're done. Yeah.

1697
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:45,180
Unknown: I mean, it'll be good.
Yeah, it'd be good not to have

1698
01:46:45,180 --> 01:46:48,390
to pull from the central source.
But I did want to say something

1699
01:46:48,390 --> 01:46:54,120
about the the greenlight. The I
think the thing that made Alby

1700
01:46:54,120 --> 01:46:56,760
really easy to do, like, you
know, wherever, doesn't have

1701
01:46:56,760 --> 01:46:59,250
streaming payments, but boosts
was pretty straightforward,

1702
01:46:59,250 --> 01:47:02,460
because it's all familiar tech
for web dev, right, you know,

1703
01:47:02,460 --> 01:47:05,550
you do an OAuth sign in, you
make some REST calls, you know,

1704
01:47:05,580 --> 01:47:10,050
boom, you've boosted. And I
think that was a big

1705
01:47:10,050 --> 01:47:13,110
contribution to kind of abstract
out, I think you already talked

1706
01:47:13,110 --> 01:47:16,620
about this earlier, right. But
to abstract out nodes and

1707
01:47:16,620 --> 01:47:19,800
payment channels, and those
kinds of things. And it looks

1708
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:22,080
like from what I've seen that
green light does all of that,

1709
01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:26,970
too. There's some kind of object
model, you know, behind it,

1710
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:30,180
right? Like you have Bitcoin
node, you have lightning node,

1711
01:47:30,180 --> 01:47:33,510
you have payment channels, you
have wallets. And that's all a

1712
01:47:33,510 --> 01:47:36,630
little gray, and MIT, but maybe
you don't need to know about it

1713
01:47:36,630 --> 01:47:40,980
to be able to consume it. And,
you know, it looks like, it

1714
01:47:40,980 --> 01:47:45,450
looks like the green light could
be done in a web app. I think

1715
01:47:45,450 --> 01:47:50,460
that it uses G RPC, which, yes,
that's, that's fine. And I think

1716
01:47:50,460 --> 01:47:54,210
it's all you know, your secrets,
which means, you know, they

1717
01:47:54,210 --> 01:47:59,280
could be put in a browser
storage. So it looks like it

1718
01:47:59,280 --> 01:48:02,250
should be doable, but you know,
it's obviously like, many, many

1719
01:48:02,250 --> 01:48:04,890
hours later before he sounds
like Adam. Sorry. I

1720
01:48:04,890 --> 01:48:08,940
Adam Curry: know. I make a song
so easy. Yes. Yes. Yes. Easy.

1721
01:48:08,939 --> 01:48:12,299
Dave Jones: Just ran the
command. Yeah. Worked.

1722
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:16,140
Adam Curry: Ran, I ran the
command. script.

1723
01:48:16,290 --> 01:48:19,680
Unknown: I totally feel the the,
you know, not wanting to be you

1724
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:22,230
know, bound up the whole vibe of
all this stuff I've been working

1725
01:48:22,230 --> 01:48:25,110
on is hey, let's let's not try
to be like tied up with any one

1726
01:48:25,530 --> 01:48:27,870
sort of system or provider or

1727
01:48:27,899 --> 01:48:32,339
Dave Jones: decouple? Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, I think I think

1728
01:48:32,339 --> 01:48:36,989
that's, I think that's a big
deal. And I mean, other other. I

1729
01:48:36,989 --> 01:48:39,599
don't know if there's any other
apps running on umbilical, but,

1730
01:48:39,809 --> 01:48:46,079
I mean, anybody, any aspiring
web podcasting app can start can

1731
01:48:46,079 --> 01:48:48,899
grab that and start going. Yeah,
right now, I mean, correct.

1732
01:48:49,229 --> 01:48:52,619
Unknown: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's
kind of hard to tell the story

1733
01:48:52,619 --> 01:48:55,019
of why it's this way, right. I
think most people just would

1734
01:48:55,019 --> 01:48:58,649
love to get users who don't care
about how any of this works, you

1735
01:48:58,649 --> 01:49:02,609
know, so I, you know, there's a
deliberate choice here and

1736
01:49:02,609 --> 01:49:05,879
trying to build something that
that achieve certain goals, you

1737
01:49:05,879 --> 01:49:08,969
know, above sort of, hey, how do
I get the largest number of

1738
01:49:08,969 --> 01:49:12,059
people on my system but yeah,
I'd love to hear from people if

1739
01:49:12,059 --> 01:49:13,439
they want to mess with it and
try it out.

1740
01:49:14,249 --> 01:49:16,139
Adam Curry: What are you doing
now? Andrew, do you have a job?

1741
01:49:16,620 --> 01:49:21,600
Unknown: I do. I do. Yeah. I
don't want to sort of talk about

1742
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:24,630
it too much but yeah, I work a
day job let's just say it's

1743
01:49:24,660 --> 01:49:26,010
pretty interesting pretty far
out

1744
01:49:29,609 --> 01:49:35,489
Adam Curry: Oh, wow, that's
that's so obvious. Oh, man. Let

1745
01:49:35,489 --> 01:49:38,609
me let me see if I can play the
jingle here.

1746
01:49:40,859 --> 01:49:47,339
Dave Jones: A spot the spook
spot everybody wants to spot

1747
01:49:47,519 --> 01:49:51,449
this Yeah, that's it haha I know
that I noticed you don't keep

1748
01:49:51,449 --> 01:49:52,709
pedia Yeah.

1749
01:49:54,689 --> 01:49:55,829
Adam Curry: For business cards

1750
01:49:58,079 --> 01:50:02,039
Unknown: but I will say You
know, I run a run a software

1751
01:50:02,039 --> 01:50:07,409
team and you know, a lot of what
I do there is sort of, you know,

1752
01:50:07,409 --> 01:50:11,819
direction setting and people
work. And kind of going back to

1753
01:50:11,819 --> 01:50:12,959
that thing about the gym.

1754
01:50:12,989 --> 01:50:19,739
Adam Curry: Hey, make sure your
mouth wet or guess what he's up

1755
01:50:19,739 --> 01:50:20,099
to?

1756
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:26,100
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, so you're
familiar with with soft skills?

1757
01:50:26,100 --> 01:50:26,430
That's

1758
01:50:27,150 --> 01:50:30,780
Unknown: right. Yeah, this this
helps me keep my skills sharp

1759
01:50:30,780 --> 01:50:33,870
and a lot of it transfers over.
And so, you know, I learned

1760
01:50:33,870 --> 01:50:37,560
about things that I wind up
using in the day job and yeah,

1761
01:50:37,740 --> 01:50:40,140
Adam Curry: I am I'm so
delighted that you came on

1762
01:50:40,140 --> 01:50:44,610
today, Andrew, it's so fun to
reconnect and just remember some

1763
01:50:44,610 --> 01:50:48,300
of the things but also, man I've
said this before I so appreciate

1764
01:50:48,300 --> 01:50:51,300
that you came into the into the
community and just throwing your

1765
01:50:51,300 --> 01:50:53,280
stuff in there. I love that man.
It's really

1766
01:50:53,699 --> 01:50:58,319
Unknown: great community. Yeah,
I get such a such I get a real

1767
01:50:58,319 --> 01:51:03,149
sort of like, hit of just, I
don't know, enjoyment of seeing

1768
01:51:03,149 --> 01:51:07,409
everybody on the community and
what everyone's doing. And, you

1769
01:51:07,409 --> 01:51:09,629
know, some folks have been
really, really nice. I think

1770
01:51:09,899 --> 01:51:12,779
Dobby Das was like the first
person to send me a V for V

1771
01:51:12,779 --> 01:51:16,649
payment for something. I was
just I think I think it was

1772
01:51:16,649 --> 01:51:19,529
because of him that I opened
that lb wallet, right? He's

1773
01:51:19,529 --> 01:51:22,109
like, Where can I send you? And
I was like, I guess I should

1774
01:51:22,109 --> 01:51:22,709
open a wallet.

1775
01:51:24,899 --> 01:51:26,849
Dave Jones: But it's really is a
great community. People are

1776
01:51:26,849 --> 01:51:30,689
just, they're just really chill
and cool. 90% of the time. Yeah.

1777
01:51:31,049 --> 01:51:31,499
Yeah.

1778
01:51:31,530 --> 01:51:33,090
Adam Curry: 90% of the time.

1779
01:51:33,899 --> 01:51:36,299
Dave Jones: 90 days. Okay. 91
Yeah, maybe

1780
01:51:36,300 --> 01:51:38,910
Adam Curry: now. Yeah. So,
there's a range is a range,

1781
01:51:38,940 --> 01:51:39,570
right? It's

1782
01:51:40,739 --> 01:51:44,579
Unknown: dynamic. It's mutual. I
mean, yeah, that all this all

1783
01:51:44,579 --> 01:51:47,579
this cool stuff and interesting
people. So thank you for that.

1784
01:51:48,209 --> 01:51:50,729
Adam Curry: Shall we? Thanks.
Some people here Dave. Yeah,

1785
01:51:50,729 --> 01:51:54,089
let's do it. I have some live
booths that have been going to

1786
01:51:54,089 --> 01:52:02,369
shut him. Dred Scott with the
23456 Nice Drib drabs got ma'am,

1787
01:52:02,459 --> 01:52:06,959
that another one of those Kiros
podcasting 2.0 He says right now

1788
01:52:06,959 --> 01:52:10,529
I have a boring work meeting in
my left ear and the boardroom in

1789
01:52:10,529 --> 01:52:14,939
the right ear. Continuing
continuing my podcasting by

1790
01:52:14,939 --> 01:52:18,809
osmosis journey as I helped my
wife launch her new show. A

1791
01:52:18,809 --> 01:52:21,089
humble thank you to all of those
who have helped to continue to

1792
01:52:21,089 --> 01:52:24,659
help me learn go podcasting. I
want to know what what is said

1793
01:52:24,659 --> 01:52:33,929
show. I want to Wayne Wayne show
333 from salty crayon he says PS

1794
01:52:33,959 --> 01:52:37,619
getting low on our booster gram
ball fix the producer Tina give

1795
01:52:37,619 --> 01:52:41,879
me any time slots. Yes, she has
me. She has me doing all kinds

1796
01:52:41,879 --> 01:52:45,119
of stuff that every day is like
hey, Saturday and then also is

1797
01:52:45,119 --> 01:52:47,699
like well, I guess I won't be
doing booster grand ball. Okay.

1798
01:52:48,779 --> 01:52:50,039
Dave Jones: So me and baby man.

1799
01:52:50,370 --> 01:52:54,060
Adam Curry: It's hard 1234 from
Dred Scott. Thank you. Drib

1800
01:52:54,060 --> 01:52:58,290
another oh, here's the salty
Crayon 1182 How the boardroom

1801
01:52:58,290 --> 01:53:00,660
was going to say something about
the nostril bros but after

1802
01:53:00,660 --> 01:53:04,020
hearing Dave's sound down about
the infrastructure, decided to

1803
01:53:04,020 --> 01:53:07,170
cheer him up with some Doom hold
donation in the pipe go

1804
01:53:07,170 --> 01:53:13,950
podcasting. Donation. Dred Scott
775 Money transmitter go Burr.

1805
01:53:14,010 --> 01:53:18,210
Okay, the tone record 3333
excellent knowledge share at the

1806
01:53:18,210 --> 01:53:20,490
beginning of the episode set a
review reviewing Part of the

1807
01:53:20,490 --> 01:53:23,190
stack with lightning payments
and integration options. Yes,

1808
01:53:23,190 --> 01:53:27,750
thank you. Drive another 775 He
says Just be careful while you

1809
01:53:27,750 --> 01:53:32,160
let your dongle dangle. That's
for you, Andrew, don't don't

1810
01:53:32,160 --> 01:53:36,030
dangle your dongle everywhere.
Roger that. pre show test boost

1811
01:53:36,030 --> 01:53:39,810
from grabs 777 and other tests
from Chad F 333. And that's what

1812
01:53:39,810 --> 01:53:42,180
we have so far for the live
boost. DAVE What do you got on

1813
01:53:42,180 --> 01:53:42,870
your list?

1814
01:53:44,369 --> 01:53:46,979
Dave Jones: Yeah, Chris Chris
last reducer bracket. We got

1815
01:53:46,979 --> 01:53:51,299
some boost grams here. Oh, wait,
wait, wait, wait. I'm wrong. We

1816
01:53:51,299 --> 01:53:52,229
have a

1817
01:53:52,769 --> 01:53:55,889
Adam Curry: by the way. I love I
love Christmas podcast this week

1818
01:53:55,889 --> 01:53:56,639
in Bitcoin.

1819
01:53:57,480 --> 01:53:58,110
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's good.

1820
01:53:58,199 --> 01:54:00,299
Adam Curry: I love that podcast.
That's great.

1821
01:54:00,900 --> 01:54:04,530
Dave Jones: I almost messed up
and did not read Oscar marry

1822
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:05,340
$200.

1823
01:54:08,069 --> 01:54:11,819
Unknown: Sakala 20 is played on
him. Paula.

1824
01:54:11,969 --> 01:54:14,939
Adam Curry: Thank you. Very
nice, Oscar. Appreciate it.

1825
01:54:15,599 --> 01:54:18,299
Dave Jones: Let us know if
fountain can do through Zebedee

1826
01:54:18,450 --> 01:54:20,760
Adam Curry: bolt. 12. Please let
us know.

1827
01:54:22,079 --> 01:54:25,079
Dave Jones: We've got some guest
booths. We got Chris from

1828
01:54:25,079 --> 01:54:27,929
Jupiter broadcasting 50,000
SATs. Thank you, Chris.

1829
01:54:27,929 --> 01:54:33,389
Appreciate that brother. He says
I adore you both. But some of

1830
01:54:33,389 --> 01:54:36,929
your nostril take is really bad.
Oh, you're right. Yeah, you're

1831
01:54:36,929 --> 01:54:39,359
right. We don't need a Twitter
clone. But you're getting

1832
01:54:39,359 --> 01:54:43,379
distracted by its least useful
implementation. I was skeptical

1833
01:54:43,379 --> 01:54:46,469
at first too. But having a front
row seat to what the founding

1834
01:54:46,469 --> 01:54:49,049
team is building for their
future releases as demonstrated

1835
01:54:49,049 --> 01:54:52,409
to me It solves problems. Things
like nostril wallet connect

1836
01:54:52,409 --> 01:54:54,779
could very likely be useful to
podcast and tip one on the

1837
01:54:54,779 --> 01:54:59,039
future. Also check out mutiny
wallet, lightning. Lightning,

1838
01:54:59,039 --> 01:55:03,359
great UI, Albie But I'll be back
to support. Okay, let me let me

1839
01:55:03,539 --> 01:55:10,499
clarify. I'm not, and I did, I
clarified some of this on the on

1840
01:55:10,499 --> 01:55:20,009
the podcast index dot social, I
am not critical of, of anyone

1841
01:55:20,009 --> 01:55:23,339
doing whatever they want to do
with new protocols and

1842
01:55:23,339 --> 01:55:27,359
sandboxing new ideas and that
kind of thing. Not at all. We

1843
01:55:27,359 --> 01:55:33,509
all do that. Now, I have built
noster things I built the MK

1844
01:55:33,509 --> 01:55:37,949
Ultra chat. The Fountain chat is
similar to what I was building,

1845
01:55:37,949 --> 01:55:43,589
it's not identical, but it was
similar to MK Ultra. And, and I

1846
01:55:43,589 --> 01:55:49,439
still will bridge that back out
to activitypub. I want to make

1847
01:55:49,439 --> 01:55:53,519
that happen. So I mean, I'm
getting I get it, I'm not being

1848
01:55:53,519 --> 01:55:59,729
critical. The the critical
illness of noster was from the

1849
01:55:59,729 --> 01:56:06,599
standpoint of seeing all of this
development time from people

1850
01:56:06,599 --> 01:56:12,359
that I consider to be core
lightning developers. All this

1851
01:56:12,359 --> 01:56:18,719
development time spent on these,
these ideas that have like a 1%

1852
01:56:18,719 --> 01:56:23,789
chance of ever making any impact
on anything, when at the same

1853
01:56:23,789 --> 01:56:29,219
time, we have core lightening
infrastructure problems that are

1854
01:56:29,219 --> 01:56:33,449
still broken. And that's that's
the that's the thing. I mean,

1855
01:56:33,449 --> 01:56:36,179
like, you know, I have people
that are like, there are good,

1856
01:56:36,209 --> 01:56:40,829
good developers that are just
doing crazy stuff on nostre. And

1857
01:56:40,829 --> 01:56:43,169
I'm like, Why? Why are you doing
this?

1858
01:56:45,060 --> 01:56:47,670
Adam Curry: I just want to add
that Nasr wallet Connect is not

1859
01:56:47,670 --> 01:56:54,840
a solution. You still need a
node that does stuff. And it may

1860
01:56:54,840 --> 01:56:59,790
be okay for the noster network
of people to set up their own

1861
01:56:59,790 --> 01:57:03,450
node and to connect that to
Nasir wallet Connect. But it's,

1862
01:57:03,600 --> 01:57:08,160
it's it's not the solution we
need. It seems like it but it's

1863
01:57:08,160 --> 01:57:08,640
not.

1864
01:57:09,480 --> 01:57:11,610
Dave Jones: And the thing the
thing about the thing about

1865
01:57:11,610 --> 01:57:16,650
nostril that you that you really
do have to remember. And and no,

1866
01:57:16,650 --> 01:57:19,560
but every time I every time we
talk about this, nobody

1867
01:57:19,860 --> 01:57:25,620
acknowledges it is that there is
a sizable chunk of nostril

1868
01:57:25,740 --> 01:57:31,440
development that is being funded
by venture capital. And Jack

1869
01:57:31,440 --> 01:57:39,000
Dorsey money and opens at open
sets the window when that money

1870
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:44,850
goes away, the nostril ecosystem
is going to shrink down to a the

1871
01:57:44,850 --> 01:57:45,960
size of a nut.

1872
01:57:46,740 --> 01:57:51,510
Adam Curry: And it's and what
I'm seeing I follow J 65. Very

1873
01:57:51,510 --> 01:57:55,860
closely I biked if I follow this
a lot of this stuff. Because I'm

1874
01:57:55,860 --> 01:57:58,950
never I'm never gonna give up on
something. I don't want to miss

1875
01:57:58,950 --> 01:58:04,620
anything. But he's building a
relay into his app. You gotta

1876
01:58:04,620 --> 01:58:05,370
wonder why.

1877
01:58:06,989 --> 01:58:09,839
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, a call
that running the daemon running

1878
01:58:09,839 --> 01:58:13,439
the Domus last numbers I saw was
running the Dominus relay was

1879
01:58:13,439 --> 01:58:19,079
costing him nearly $1,000 in
mind. Yeah. And that's just not

1880
01:58:19,079 --> 01:58:23,759
sustainable on the long term for
for an indie developer, where

1881
01:58:23,759 --> 01:58:29,639
he's getting no money other than
grant money. So I just my those

1882
01:58:29,639 --> 01:58:33,119
are my concerns. I just wanted
to be clear that the the you're

1883
01:58:33,119 --> 01:58:42,869
a hater. Well, yeah, and there's
also easily Costello 2500 sets,

1884
01:58:43,139 --> 01:58:46,619
making it all work together.
Thank you. Ainsley through to s3

1885
01:58:46,619 --> 01:58:51,359
through true fans. Oh, nice. Oh,
wait, here's a look at this.

1886
01:58:51,359 --> 01:58:53,249
This is Andrew grommet. What

1887
01:58:53,460 --> 01:58:57,450
Adam Curry: 2022 row of dogs Oh,
nice.

1888
01:58:57,449 --> 01:59:05,219
Dave Jones: He says Go go go.
Kevin Bay 10,000 sets nice for

1889
01:59:05,219 --> 01:59:08,159
the those for the tune last
week. He says boost

1890
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:11,970
Adam Curry: Yes. Thank thank you
everybody for boosting. First of

1891
01:59:11,970 --> 01:59:17,190
all, it just I haven't gotten a
report back from music mama. But

1892
01:59:17,220 --> 01:59:22,530
if I take if I take a look at
people pleaser, and that's

1893
01:59:22,560 --> 01:59:28,650
Ainsley sock 363 Satoshis and of
which a significant portion went

1894
01:59:28,650 --> 01:59:32,610
to the collaborators on that
song. And just so many booster

1895
01:59:32,610 --> 01:59:36,090
grams is so nice to see how the
community came together for that

1896
01:59:36,090 --> 01:59:39,210
and really made it a good
experience for them, though, and

1897
01:59:39,210 --> 01:59:42,720
that's more money than they
would make on on on Spotify.

1898
01:59:42,990 --> 01:59:43,680
They know what

1899
01:59:44,819 --> 01:59:47,879
Dave Jones: a lot of these, a
lot of these are for the song

1900
01:59:47,879 --> 01:59:50,879
last week. So I'm reading this.
I'm reading the total SATs that

1901
01:59:50,879 --> 01:59:54,059
we're sending out. Of course,
our portion of that was tiny,

1902
01:59:54,089 --> 01:59:58,019
very tiny. 4000 SATs through RP
1984 This is hurting on

1903
01:59:58,019 --> 02:00:03,869
podcasting. 2.0 Yeah, that's how
you do Nice 4321 from even our

1904
02:00:05,159 --> 02:00:11,699
stupid verse he says value for
value 2222 from Jean been

1905
02:00:12,149 --> 02:00:14,459
through cast ematic he says I
wonder if strike it could be

1906
02:00:14,459 --> 02:00:19,019
used well as a podcaster and or
listener wallet if they do Bolt

1907
02:00:19,019 --> 02:00:19,649
12

1908
02:00:19,739 --> 02:00:22,289
Adam Curry: Yep, then we can do
it that what a solution that

1909
02:00:22,289 --> 02:00:23,939
would be for sure.

1910
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:28,380
Dave Jones: We need to figure
out we it's time to do some

1911
02:00:28,380 --> 02:00:32,580
testing and figure out where all
Bolt 12 can can succeed that

1912
02:00:32,580 --> 02:00:37,020
yes, I think it's time to do
that. I'm going to do the dwelve

1913
02:00:37,140 --> 02:00:43,560
part of the cast pod bros 32 768
F 32 kilo boost says I came for

1914
02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:47,430
the podcasting 2.0 chat and
stayed for the philosophy. This

1915
02:00:47,430 --> 02:00:50,130
discussion had me thinking for a
long time afterwards about

1916
02:00:50,130 --> 02:00:54,120
inevitability tech investment
access journalism. And the bloom

1917
02:00:54,120 --> 02:00:57,660
coming off the rows around AI
loves to comment about open AI

1918
02:00:57,660 --> 02:01:03,600
will become the we work of AI
THANK YOU DID YOU that must have

1919
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:06,120
been Yeah, that sounds like an
Adam curry. No, that's not me.

1920
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:12,630
Okay, no, Jean been a boosted
the songs for 2020s As people

1921
02:01:12,630 --> 02:01:15,060
pleasers yet another great song
Glad to hear it on the podcast

1922
02:01:15,060 --> 02:01:20,100
and people know podcast Randall
black 3000s SAS for the for the

1923
02:01:20,100 --> 02:01:27,450
song fee for v is the way see we
got a Chris You know 3000 SATs

1924
02:01:27,450 --> 02:01:35,580
nice keep them coming. user this
is a great name. User 7493 and

1925
02:01:35,580 --> 02:01:36,690
3981

1926
02:01:37,439 --> 02:01:40,679
Adam Curry: Okay from where what
app fountain Okay.

1927
02:01:41,250 --> 02:01:44,550
Dave Jones: says people pleaser.
Nice thank you for that boost.

1928
02:01:45,480 --> 02:01:48,420
Ainsley Costello 2500 SAS is
making it all work together

1929
02:01:48,450 --> 02:01:52,020
again and again. So that again
oh, this is part two from Chris

1930
02:01:52,020 --> 02:01:54,720
from Jupiter broadcasting. This
is 5000 SATs so he brought in at

1931
02:01:54,720 --> 02:01:58,620
55,000 total. Thank you, Chris.
He's got a part two. He says we

1932
02:01:58,620 --> 02:02:03,120
need a skunk lab testing fed him
30 minutes support for boosts.

1933
02:02:03,690 --> 02:02:07,530
Maybe set up a podcast index
Fetty meant Yeah, I guess we

1934
02:02:07,530 --> 02:02:08,220
should switch in.

1935
02:02:08,250 --> 02:02:09,840
Adam Curry: I gotta look into
fatty mints.

1936
02:02:10,650 --> 02:02:13,890
Dave Jones: Yeah, no, no, I know
the word as all I know. Yeah, it

1937
02:02:13,890 --> 02:02:14,130
is.

1938
02:02:14,340 --> 02:02:17,070
Adam Curry: It's it's you kind
of pool your resources.

1939
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:19,350
Interesting, interesting
concept.

1940
02:02:20,819 --> 02:02:23,519
Dave Jones: That is kind of
interesting. Okay. He says I'm

1941
02:02:23,519 --> 02:02:26,429
not saying we should switch over
from lightning anytime soon. But

1942
02:02:26,429 --> 02:02:28,919
it would solve so many problems
for listeners and podcasters no

1943
02:02:28,919 --> 02:02:32,429
channels various implementations
rolling out today. I say we keep

1944
02:02:32,429 --> 02:02:34,979
an open mind some of this stuff
might be useful to us in the

1945
02:02:34,979 --> 02:02:38,159
future. Maybe there is a reason
all these smart folks are

1946
02:02:38,159 --> 02:02:42,479
working on this stuff. Yeah, we
look into fed Amana. I just know

1947
02:02:42,479 --> 02:02:48,539
the word thanks Chris. Anonymous
2000 says he says boost

1948
02:02:49,050 --> 02:02:50,430
Adam Curry: boost boost to you.

1949
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:58,080
Dave Jones: I said he may be a
she see we got some of these are

1950
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:03,330
repeats oh they must be like
yeah, these are these are coming

1951
02:03:03,330 --> 02:03:07,740
in from the from the per minute
G mean 2222. This is a now y'all

1952
02:03:07,740 --> 02:03:12,960
are talking about strike.
Nevermind. Okay. Sir Bill 5000

1953
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:15,690
SATs go podcasting. Thank you,
sir. Bill. Appreciate you. Thank

1954
02:03:15,690 --> 02:03:22,950
you. Farscape Ian 10,000 SATs he
says Adam hasn't seen biodome

1955
02:03:23,010 --> 02:03:23,580
tragic.

1956
02:03:24,539 --> 02:03:26,939
Adam Curry: It's on the list.
Now. I don't want to seem like a

1957
02:03:26,939 --> 02:03:27,479
douche.

1958
02:03:27,989 --> 02:03:30,479
Dave Jones: That was surprising
that you didn't remember a Pauly

1959
02:03:30,479 --> 02:03:31,379
Shore classic.

1960
02:03:31,529 --> 02:03:34,859
Adam Curry: And Pauly Shore
irritated me to no end at the

1961
02:03:34,859 --> 02:03:39,899
MTV days. But he buddy yeah, I
just couldn't handle it.

1962
02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:43,200
Dave Jones: Was he liked that in
private or was that just an act?

1963
02:03:44,069 --> 02:03:46,229
Adam Curry: He was weird. Okay.

1964
02:03:47,250 --> 02:03:52,950
Dave Jones: 8008 Boob donation
from Kyron. Fountain he says

1965
02:03:52,980 --> 02:03:55,830
I've missed some boosts. So
here's an extra to make up.

1966
02:03:56,010 --> 02:03:58,560
Dave, you forgot to talk about
the podcast and tupuna meetup in

1967
02:03:58,560 --> 02:03:59,970
late July. What's happening
y'all?

1968
02:04:00,030 --> 02:04:02,010
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. What is
happening with that?

1969
02:04:03,060 --> 02:04:07,380
Dave Jones: Yeah, so we're
trying to get get a podcast and

1970
02:04:07,380 --> 02:04:10,260
tympanum meetup around the
Bitcoin Conference in Nashville

1971
02:04:10,260 --> 02:04:10,890
somewhere.

1972
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:14,730
Adam Curry: Yes. The Costello's
are going to be there with their

1973
02:04:14,730 --> 02:04:15,870
bands at Bitcoin.

1974
02:04:16,979 --> 02:04:20,999
Dave Jones: So we, you know,
what are the current thinking is

1975
02:04:20,999 --> 02:04:25,259
that chi Well, Chiron is going
to fly into Atlanta from Brazil.

1976
02:04:26,039 --> 02:04:31,289
So right around that time, so
I'm going to meet up with him.

1977
02:04:32,009 --> 02:04:34,079
And we were like, Well, why
don't we just turn it into a

1978
02:04:34,079 --> 02:04:37,379
podcasting 2.0 meetup and
anybody who's around town in

1979
02:04:37,379 --> 02:04:42,059
Nashville can just meet up and
have some have some drinks or

1980
02:04:42,059 --> 02:04:48,899
something. So anybody who is
going to be anybody who wants to

1981
02:04:48,899 --> 02:04:52,769
do something like that? On one
of those days, let's try to net

1982
02:04:52,799 --> 02:04:56,729
let's try to nail something down
so that I know when that I can

1983
02:04:56,759 --> 02:04:57,959
be I really

1984
02:04:57,960 --> 02:05:00,510
Adam Curry: want to come and be
could not be worse. Days

1985
02:05:00,510 --> 02:05:04,320
Thursday Friday Saturday could
not be worse for me. Yeah.

1986
02:05:05,309 --> 02:05:07,019
Dave Jones: Which wouldn't I'm
not going to the Bitcoin

1987
02:05:07,019 --> 02:05:08,219
Conference no no

1988
02:05:08,219 --> 02:05:10,979
Adam Curry: I'm not I don't do
conferences nope don't do that

1989
02:05:10,979 --> 02:05:11,039
I'm

1990
02:05:11,039 --> 02:05:13,829
Dave Jones: not spending any
money I'm not spending hundreds

1991
02:05:13,829 --> 02:05:16,769
of dollars on the ticket for
anything like that so but but I

1992
02:05:16,769 --> 02:05:19,019
will go up there and have a
meetup if people want to

1993
02:05:19,050 --> 02:05:21,870
Adam Curry: there is a meeting
of the thank God for Bitcoin

1994
02:05:21,900 --> 02:05:25,830
dudes. Yeah, yeah. And they're
pretty interesting bunch in

1995
02:05:25,830 --> 02:05:29,940
Nashville. I think it's a
Bitcoin Park. Actually. There's

1996
02:05:29,940 --> 02:05:32,130
like round that there's like
there's like four things there's

1997
02:05:32,160 --> 02:05:34,740
Yeah, it's the Bitcoin
Conference and around that we

1998
02:05:34,740 --> 02:05:38,790
have the thank God for Bitcoin
meetup. We have bands of Bitcoin

1999
02:05:38,820 --> 02:05:41,490
and Texas Slim's cattleman feast

2000
02:05:42,779 --> 02:05:45,449
Dave Jones: okay so if the bands
that Bitcoin you don't have to

2001
02:05:45,539 --> 02:05:48,359
stay the cat on his face that
sounds like a pretty good

2002
02:05:48,359 --> 02:05:48,689
meetup.

2003
02:05:48,749 --> 02:05:51,539
Adam Curry: Oh, no, that's
that's an actual mea t meet up

2004
02:05:51,569 --> 02:05:52,169
for sure.

2005
02:05:52,260 --> 02:05:56,940
Dave Jones: Uh, me AMITA this so
the bands at Bitcoin? Is that

2006
02:05:56,940 --> 02:05:59,760
going to be in the cut? Is that
going to be part of the

2007
02:05:59,760 --> 02:06:01,140
conference? Or is that? No, it's

2008
02:06:01,140 --> 02:06:04,410
Adam Curry: separate as to the
Embassy Suites. Okay, they have

2009
02:06:04,410 --> 02:06:08,070
the room they have room for 600
people in the audience. I saw

2010
02:06:08,070 --> 02:06:10,830
that Eric peepee and blueberry
we're already working on some

2011
02:06:10,830 --> 02:06:14,010
kind of online system that not
only can you follow along at

2012
02:06:14,010 --> 02:06:18,600
home watch the video of the
bands playing but boost them as

2013
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:24,240
well as something they can show
on screens there. Excuse me. So

2014
02:06:24,240 --> 02:06:29,190
we can really show the round
robin of how music in podcasting

2015
02:06:29,190 --> 02:06:32,850
and music and podcasting 2.0 in
general value for value works.

2016
02:06:33,810 --> 02:06:37,890
Dave Jones: Okay, so let's get
my my thinking is we try to just

2017
02:06:38,010 --> 02:06:41,850
put the 2.0 meetup pretty much
around the banded Bitcoin thing.

2018
02:06:42,000 --> 02:06:48,180
Adam Curry: Now Buber is saying
July 28. Is that? What is it? Is

2019
02:06:48,180 --> 02:06:58,290
that Sunday? When is July 28? To
take a look at me say July. What

2020
02:06:58,290 --> 02:07:00,930
kind of what day is that? It's
going to be sucked everything so

2021
02:07:00,930 --> 02:07:06,990
My life sucks. That's a Sunday
breath. I have this crazy job

2022
02:07:06,990 --> 02:07:10,950
that just keeps me busy. I can
barely go and my wife's taken me

2023
02:07:10,950 --> 02:07:13,980
away to Mexico for my 60th
birthday. I'm like, that's fine,

2024
02:07:13,980 --> 02:07:15,540
but I'm going to be doing
podcasts

2025
02:07:17,579 --> 02:07:21,209
Dave Jones: to 28 There's a
Sunday yes that's a Sunday.

2026
02:07:21,360 --> 02:07:23,610
Adam Curry: Oh, that's a behind
the scheme's episode they're

2027
02:07:23,610 --> 02:07:25,950
going to do okay all right. I'm
gonna tell there's a lot going

2028
02:07:25,950 --> 02:07:30,180
on a lot going on but I even
Tina's like you know, you should

2029
02:07:30,180 --> 02:07:34,230
kind of go to that like I really
Yeah, but then I have to set up

2030
02:07:35,250 --> 02:07:37,620
Dave Jones: well it's just so
close to me it's only two hour

2031
02:07:37,620 --> 02:07:41,460
drive ya know for you it's
beautiful. It's nothing Yeah, so

2032
02:07:41,460 --> 02:07:44,490
I can make it up there for
something like that. Bans

2033
02:07:44,670 --> 02:07:47,670
Bitcoin I'll figure I'll post
something on the social but

2034
02:07:48,000 --> 02:07:51,420
please anybody who's going to be
there let me know email or or

2035
02:07:51,450 --> 02:07:54,510
podcast index dot social let me
know you're gonna be there so we

2036
02:07:54,510 --> 02:07:58,050
can put a meet up together. Yes.
Because Karen Karen is he is

2037
02:07:58,050 --> 02:08:04,200
flying into Atlanta. See we got
what else we got. We got I was

2038
02:08:04,200 --> 02:08:08,970
just delimiter let me check do
we gotta make sure this is we

2039
02:08:08,970 --> 02:08:14,010
got Clark Ian Clarkin sent a
song boost these 1000 SAS he

2040
02:08:14,010 --> 02:08:20,070
says V for v 20. I'm sorry. That
was 20,000 SATs. Oh, beautiful

2041
02:08:20,070 --> 02:08:24,780
art. Yeah, Clarkin is my buddy.
I know who that is. Jean in. C

2042
02:08:24,780 --> 02:08:29,190
we already got Jean Boehner so
we got the delimiter 22,000 SATs

2043
02:08:29,190 --> 02:08:32,460
for comic strip blogger. Yay.
Through fountain Thank you

2044
02:08:32,460 --> 02:08:36,240
chrome sir. Blogger he says.
Howdy, Dave and Adam. I'd like

2045
02:08:36,240 --> 02:08:40,350
to again recommend a podcast by
two Texans Ben and Jean. They

2046
02:08:40,350 --> 02:08:45,810
talk about fun stuff. Quote from
the last episode. Jean. Ben's

2047
02:08:45,810 --> 02:08:49,500
more likely to do a show if he
doesn't have to pay for it. Ben.

2048
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:53,130
Well, and you know you're
getting that podcasting. 2.0

2049
02:08:53,130 --> 02:09:00,690
money. So, Jean, what
podcasting? 2.0 money. Ben,

2050
02:09:01,020 --> 02:09:02,940
you're the one who has the index
listed and going on your

2051
02:09:02,940 --> 02:09:07,920
lightning node gene. Oh yeah.
Find their podcast@www.ge Just

2052
02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:10,260
two good old boys.com Yo CSB.

2053
02:09:13,470 --> 02:09:15,960
Adam Curry: Do you understand
it? Do you understand what that

2054
02:09:15,960 --> 02:09:16,140
was?

2055
02:09:16,140 --> 02:09:19,230
Dave Jones: No, I didn't know
None. None. Absolutely zero

2056
02:09:19,230 --> 02:09:25,590
idea. We got some monthlies.
Chad Farrow $20.20 Cameron Rose

2057
02:09:25,590 --> 02:09:33,030
$25. Pod page Brendan upon page
$25. Mark gram $1 New Media

2058
02:09:33,030 --> 02:09:38,010
Productions or excuse me new
media LLC. $1. Randall black $5

2059
02:09:38,010 --> 02:09:42,000
Joseph maraca $5 and Emilio
Kendall Molina $4 And that's our

2060
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:42,480
group's

2061
02:09:44,220 --> 02:09:47,820
Adam Curry: beautiful thank you
all so much. It's a value for

2062
02:09:47,820 --> 02:09:51,420
value project, which means you
put back into it whatever you

2063
02:09:51,420 --> 02:09:56,130
get out of it. That's up to you.
We really appreciate all the

2064
02:09:56,130 --> 02:09:59,760
support people have been giving.
Certainly our hosters who are

2065
02:09:59,760 --> 02:10:04,800
out They're thank you so much.
And then even some of those apps

2066
02:10:04,800 --> 02:10:09,570
like, there you go, Oscar Mary
Mary Oscar. Andrew Gromit, man,

2067
02:10:09,570 --> 02:10:11,640
thank you so much for being here
with us today.

2068
02:10:12,300 --> 02:10:13,170
Unknown: Great talking to you.

2069
02:10:13,950 --> 02:10:18,330
Adam Curry: Don't be no
stranger. All right. And

2070
02:10:18,540 --> 02:10:21,390
indefinitely see if you can
erase some of my files that you

2071
02:10:21,390 --> 02:10:25,410
have there. Yep. Got you some
some incriminating evidence.

2072
02:10:25,470 --> 02:10:30,540
Those pictures. Yeah. Anything
else you want to close with

2073
02:10:30,540 --> 02:10:30,930
Andrew?

2074
02:10:31,290 --> 02:10:33,840
Unknown: No, it's all good. This
was a lot of fun. Yeah.

2075
02:10:33,870 --> 02:10:36,450
Adam Curry: Thank you all very
much here in the boardroom Dave

2076
02:10:36,450 --> 02:10:39,840
brother. Have a great weekend.
You too, guys. Everybody take

2077
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:45,900
care, Andrew. Thanks, man, my
man. And we will be back. Wait

2078
02:10:45,930 --> 02:10:49,410
at the stop. Are we back next
Friday? No, no, no, no,

2079
02:10:49,619 --> 02:10:50,249
Dave Jones: no fake news,

2080
02:10:50,280 --> 02:10:53,400
Adam Curry: fake news. We're not
back next Friday because I'll be

2081
02:10:53,400 --> 02:10:56,970
traveling to see my daughter in
Rotterdam. And we're going to do

2082
02:10:56,970 --> 02:11:03,450
the show after that on Saturday.
Is that confirmed? Is the week

2083
02:11:03,450 --> 02:11:05,850
after the other week? That's the
week after? Yeah, the week

2084
02:11:05,850 --> 02:11:08,250
after? Yeah, when I'm traveling
back on Friday again,

2085
02:11:08,250 --> 02:11:10,830
unfortunately, is how it works
out. But then we're gonna try

2086
02:11:10,830 --> 02:11:11,760
and do it on Saturday.

2087
02:11:12,510 --> 02:11:16,710
Dave Jones: Okay, I'm gonna get
to email. I'm going to email the

2088
02:11:16,710 --> 02:11:18,330
lb guys ready to show and see if
they can do

2089
02:11:18,329 --> 02:11:21,569
Adam Curry: Saturday. Good.
Okay. So it's summer months, and

2090
02:11:21,569 --> 02:11:25,199
then in July somewhere you're
going to right? Yeah,

2091
02:11:25,199 --> 02:11:29,609
Dave Jones: July 5 through the
13th. I'm going to be going

2092
02:11:29,609 --> 02:11:31,079
we're taking a family vacation.
Oh

2093
02:11:31,110 --> 02:11:38,400
Adam Curry: man. The boardroom
is falling apart. And crew

2094
02:11:38,430 --> 02:11:42,030
skeleton crew. That's right.
Summer hours, everybody. So

2095
02:11:42,030 --> 02:11:45,240
we'll see you in two weeks right
here on podcasting No.

2096
02:12:01,290 --> 02:12:05,220
Unknown: You have been listening
to podcasting 2.0 to visit

2097
02:12:05,220 --> 02:12:09,990
podcast index.org. For more
information, go podcast.

2098
02:12:11,220 --> 02:12:12,480
Adam Curry: Drop the dongle.