Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for December 8 2023, episode 158
sangoma, Jager. Oh hello, everybody. Welcome to the
official board meeting for podcasting 2.0 This is where it
all goes down. In fact, we are the only boardroom that doesn't
do interview predictions because we are in the future. I'm Adam
curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and Alabama.
The man who fights the scrapers every day like a junkyard dog.
Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr.
Dave Jones.
Dave Jones: Like Junkyard Dog junkyard, new Junkyard Dog, man,
Adam Curry: Junkyard Dog, junkyard dog.
Dave Jones: This just, you caught me off guard because I
just realized I didn't tweet it into what you said. You said rip
it. I know. But I had this right after I fell out of my chair. So
I'm not
Adam Curry: discombobulated. Dave has eaten so many beef
milkshakes, and he's breaking chairs. Now. It's crazy.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, like it leaned over to get the shake,
and it was just like, pop and all sudden, I was like, fighting
this and to not land in the floor.
Adam Curry: I wish I wish I'd been recording it because that's
exactly what a sight and it was like, oh, conclusion. conclave
was like this big, clanking, clanking crash. And it was very
Dave Jones: interesting. Lots of stuff happened before the show.
You sound terrible. Yeah,
Adam Curry: yes. Yeah, we're gonna what do we have? I'm gonna
say RSB will it be the code Come on, come on big money. Big
money. Big money. Bola Ebola. Black? See got black? Yeah, I
think it's either. I mean, we went to Minneapolis for no
agenda meet 130 people was fantastic. In and out one one
day. Really cool. Fly. Yeah, well, I didn't fly myself. We
flew southwest. Okay. And it was dynamite. But you know, you're
shaking 130 hands and you're taking selfies. I'm gonna say
that's where you can possibly get some kind of diseased human
resource breathing down my neck. Either that or just the
airplane? I don't know. I'm trying not to get to sick.
That's the main thing.
Dave Jones: Cuz you know, are you what's the what? What are
you haven't been flying lately? No, notice this.
Adam Curry: Now we flew to Houston. Yeah, I haven't had any
destinations. Really? Yeah, I mean, Houston. Houston would
have been a good one. But I you know, I had the pastor and his
wife. So we had someone else fly us in a little bit bigger plane.
Still Still turboprop. You know, I be honest with you, Dave. I'm
59 I fly with my buddy. Mitch, who's my periodontist?
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's because you bought his planes got
bought?
Adam Curry: Yeah, base. And, and you know, we're flying out to
Dallas. And just the amount of I mean, I can fly I can I can do
all of this. The amount of traffic and stuff and the
attentiveness and, you know, the understanding of the situational
awareness of any airport, I would go to, I mean, you're
still going to we're going to Houston or Dallas, even San
Antonio, I mean, it's all going to be within these areas that
are heavily congested, lots of airports, lots of traffic. And
if you screw up, you know, which can be a hesitation when the air
controller asks something, you know, you get put in the penalty
box fly 20 minutes that way, we'll talk to you later. You
know, it's really Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, they got they got a
lot going on. You know, they got all kinds of, I'm slow. You
know, I'm always going to be slower than than any of the big
boys. So I'm just thinking, you know, maybe I should just have
someone else fly. It's better that way. It's just it's a
little much. You know, I I'm pretty good with the with the
audio mixer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's 45 years. I can do that.
You know, I'll just do boosted ground balls instead of flying.
Dave Jones: Yeah, make a career change. Yeah. Is, are you? I
mean, how bad is your illness? Are you? Are you feverish?
Adam Curry: Uh, yeah. I mean, I was coughing all night. My
throat hurts. My body aches. That's about it. So I know. Oh,
you might have COVID Yeah, mind, but I'm not going to test.
That's fine.
Dave Jones: Don't do. Don't do testing around here anymore. For
any No, no.
Adam Curry: Do we have home kits but I'm not I'm not going to
touch it. I'm just, you know, give me some Advil. I'm good to
go. Advil, the
Dave Jones: the, the PDF. The pediatrician literally told us
like a year ago, they're like now we don't really test for
COVID anymore because it's it screws up people's school
schedule.
Adam Curry: Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, it's been a very
powerful week in podcasting. A lot of interesting articles that
have come out, based upon the news, which is this
Unknown: one out of every six employees of Spotify won't be
around next year, the company's making those deep cuts to its
payroll as it looks to cut expenses. top executives blame
higher interest rates saying that they make borrowing for
capital expenditures more expensive. The affected
employees will receive several months severance. The cut
follows two previous layoffs this year, a total of 800
employees were let go. Now.
Adam Curry: I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we were
talking about that it's like they have no capital, that the
cost of capital is too expensive because of the you know, the
free money riders oversee exactly what we've been saying
for a whole year, for a whole year.
Dave Jones: And yeah, yeah, it's worth I think it's worth talking
about. Because we've been using this term, the free money is
gone. And, you know, people have been talking about this. I
think, one is some article a while back used the term, like
the dumb money is, is gone or something like that.
Adam Curry: I wouldn't say it was dumb money. It was just
there was free money. I mean, it was free, when it's free money,
then you can take big bets on stuff. But
Dave Jones: specifically the debt like the details of what
you know, what it means when to say that the free money is gone
is basically this is the way this works is when you know when
interest rates go up. Basically, US Treasuries become more
attractive than risky bets, because you have you have US
Treasuries paying in specifically treasuries, paying
5%. Plus, investors redirect all their cat, other capital, or
their all their free cash that is available for investing, they
redirect that into a sure thing. Yeah. I mean, if you can get a
guaranteed 5% or more on a treasury bill. Yeah. Then why in
the world, would you would you do? Are you going to put any of
that money into Spotify or some crazy startup? Hell no.
Adam Curry: But also, people need to remember the Spotify was
not an initial public offering in the truest sense of the word.
They didn't raise capital, they went to they just appeared on
the on the stock market. So you know, it was what is it reverse
listing or direct listing? I think they call it so there was
no underwriter that, you know, that had all this, you know,
that had basically sold shares and got all this extra money,
they had money, which they had raised, that privately in
subsequent rounds, when money was very, very cheap. Now, their
business model will never make them a very successful company,
because their business model is owned by the publishers and
labels. They own. They own most of the stock. So that I saw
something like, yeah, Spotify is owned by China. No, no, no, no,
that's not true. No, it's not true. Spotify is owned by music
insiders. And it's, it's just a pass through. It's a pass
through from you, the the audience to them. And Spotify
that Oh, guys, you got to make it work. And and, you know,
Spotify
Dave Jones: is the music labels. I mean, yes. Yeah. What did it
it's similar? You know, I started thinking about it this
week. It's similar to Hulu. Hulu was basically the big
broadcasters. They're like, you know, they came together and did
this essentially joint joint investment. With it, I think
it's mostly they've a lot of the pulled out now. And it's mostly
Disney left holding the bag. But initially, Hulu was always
buddy. It was everybody. Yeah, everybody went in together so
that there would be this sort of common marketplace for streaming
television. It helped them to have like a common store for
digital storefront, because they didn't have to build everything
themselves, they could just pump their content over there. And
then they were done. And this, that's essentially what Spotify
is for the music labels. It's universal, Sony and his the the,
the big three, essentially, they they just have a common
storefront where they, where it's a one stop shop for people
to go and get their strange streaming music. And that
happens to be Spotify.
Adam Curry: So the idea that they had, just to review was
let's expand, here's all this free content. Let's take that.
And you know, let's have some of our own shows. And then they
went off the rails and they they had McKinsey, I think McKinsey
interview a lot of people they wrote a whole strategy, a white
paper, which never got a copy of that they promised I would get
it. And I said no, don't do this is not a good idea. This is just
not not a good idea. And but what they did, is they created a
huge hype in around podcasting, which was already on the way up
because of great content from the 2016 Cereal podcast. This is
what got people interested in again at that at the height of
streaming when everybody was binging and showing up at the
office on Monday morning, you know that their job was on the
floor. Now all sudden, you had to wait until the next week to
listen to this very exciting true crime drama, which you
know, that's a very exciting content format. So When they
started shelling out the money, the end buying up, you know,
companies that had no profits gimlet, etc. Ringer. They were
in all these companies were in trouble. But it was big money.
It was you know, hundreds of millions of dollars Joe Rogan.
We still don't know exactly how much it was or, but okay, let's
just say it's the purported $2 million $200 million. And now in
that in that, that started the whole frenzy, and everybody
went, Oh, this is great. Fantastic. We're good to go. You
know, that would that came. You know, the typical, the people
who had been scraping by gimlet now all sudden, they wanted to
have, you know, $150,000 year salaries. The money was flowing,
the money was cheap. And now the inverse has happened. You know,
it's like Sorry, now we're cutting everything. Now.
Podcasting sucks. Now, it's no good. It's, you know, AI is all
we're talking about. But I do want to take us back to last
October 2022. This is the head of talk verticals. I think those
this was the presentation, I'm going to say that. We probably
got this from pod news. Weekly Review. I'm not sure I know,
James definitely linked to, you know, to the to the investor
conference. I think that's what it was. And here's here is how
Spotify was thinking just a little over two years or one
year ago.
Unknown: Think about it. Podcasting has been around for
almost two decades, and it's remained largely unchanged.
Mainly because of the limitations of RSS. We've been
able to replace RSS for on platform distribution, which
means that podcasts created on our platform are no longer held
back by this outdated technology. This has opened up a
new world of opportunity to add features and formats to the
podcast listening experience that have never been possible
before. So Spotify is now not only differentiated by our
catalogue of content, but also by delivering a truly superior
product for podcast listeners and creators.
Adam Curry: I would wager to say that didn't materialize anything
that was superior.
Dave Jones: That was actually my clip. I remember that, oh,
maybe. Well, then
Adam Curry: here's when we pulled this other one another
Unknown: way we've been able to innovate on the format. We've
made podcasts more interactive, finally enabling a deeper, more
intimate connection between creators and their fans. One of
our favorite things about podcasting is the unique
connection it enables between creators and listeners. It's
intimate show, voices are directly in listeners ears. But
until now, podcasting has been a one way street creators publish
shows and their audiences Listen, traditionally, RSS has
been limited to anonymized, aggregated analytics. And even
those are limited to what can be determined from IP addresses.
There you go. Yeah, because of these limitations, fans have
never had a good way to reach their favorite creators
directly.
Adam Curry: No, that's no, it's because of these limitations.
Wasn't that creators and I have a problem with the term
creators, creators couldn't it's not they couldn't reach their
audiences effectively is that you couldn't track audience
members and advertise. And then you were totally able to do it,
and you still couldn't pull it off. But
Unknown: now we're changing that we're changing. Our first way of
addressing this was with q&a and polls, both text based questions
that can be posed by the show's creators and surface listeners
in the Spotify app. These interactive features make it
easy for listeners to engage with the people behind their
favorite podcasts, and for creators to hear from their
audience directly on Spotify. These features are available now
to all anchor creators around the world. We've heard from many
creators, the q&a and polls have been crucial in helping them
develop engaged audiences that keep coming back for more
crucial Yeah, crucial. And this is just the beginning of our
interactive tools. For podcasts, we're really excited to
introduce lots of new ways for creators and their fans to
connect with each other.
Adam Curry: So I am so happy that we just stuck to our guns,
we stuck to RSS. Now this doesn't mean that we solve any,
any money making issues per se. We don't have any solutions for
advertising. In fact, we built out value for value, which does
work for people who dive into it. And I think over time,
you'll see that value for value will have its hits, real hits. I
mean, I consider no agenda to be a hit. I consider the show to be
a hit now we can't live off of it. But our project is running
off of it. That's for sure that's a hit you know, that's
that's good. It's hope betting against RSS is just not a good
idea betting against the the general idea of distributing
your podcast far and wide through RSS is just again, not a
good idea. Now, here's the problem. You know, the
advertising market is finicky. You know, what is the hot thing
right now? So podcasting was the hot thing, you know, they were
40 $50,000 per spot. Go went out um, as I was reading in this,
Adam Davidson, The Rise and Fall of podcasting, I mean that $100
CPMs Okay. And you know now that podcasting is kind of falling
out of favor because hey, Spotify can make it work that
firing people it's no good. You know, the media buyers there,
they're going to they're spending the same money on Tik
Tok, or wherever in anywhere but here, which, of course, is why
we have this, the podcast industrial complex. I'm leading
right to you, Dave, you can see it. The podcast industrial
complex is, is touting video as the only way forward and
audiences have changed and oh, no, we have to stay. You know,
we have to be flexible now. No. And by the way, this week in
tech, complete video, all these shows are video yet, and I am
sad, you know, here's Leo had to let three people go who had been
there for for like 1515 years. And he says here. Unfortunately,
our medium podcasting has suffered economically since the
beginning of COVID. As the number of podcasts grew
exponentially, the number of advertisers dwindled, and with
it, our revenue. At one time, we had as many as 30 people on
Twitch staff, not including show hosts, producing more than 30
unique shows today, the staff is half that size. And we produce
half the number of shows all video, by the way. So get out of
here with your video argument is just bowl and they put it on
YouTube and all it's not working. Because it's out of
favor. You know, we weren't there. I guarantee you in some
time, it could be five years from now. I mean, this is almost
a repeat of when YouTube was purchased, or was it a billion
dollars or $2 billion. And everybody always gotta have you
gotta have video. I had a company my my VCs were literally
saying, You gotta have video, it's got to be video. So we did
video? And did it make a difference? No. No?
Dave Jones: So did do you think video? And what did VT was
video? How instrumental was video in the demise of pod show?
Of me view? The heck if you had not gone into video, would it?
Would you have survived longer? No,
Adam Curry: no, because it was an advertising based model.
That's why I left. It's like you can't make this work. You can't
make it work. Because CPMs are a race to the bottom always. It's
always a race to the bottom. So you wind up with you know,
cheap, crappy content. And particularly if you're producing
video, it gets very expensive very quickly, or at least
expensive in in human resource cycles. So it just doesn't work.
Now what will happen, and history repeats or rhymes, we
will see a another show that will come out of nowhere that
people are going to be crazy about that. It'll be audio and
they're going to love it and people will start listening or
it'll start being hyped again. Now, will it be advertising has
a place in podcasting? It sure does. But it's not this inserted
ads and all this stuff. It's none of that. No, bridesmaid
magazine. That's how I see it.
Dave Jones: But you've got to when it comes to advertising,
you have a sort of baseline of like brand, what you could call
like brand awareness advertising, that's just never
gonna go away. I mean, brands have to, like if you're Johnson
and Johnson, you've got to just advertise on a consistent basis
to maintain to maintain public awareness of your brand. Yeah, I
Adam Curry: don't see a Johnson and Johnson ad anywhere in
podcasting. Not a single one. No,
Dave Jones: but there's some there's that out there and that
stuff is just always going to be there. But it to some degree. I
mean, it'll fluctuate a little bit, but there's that back sort
of background radiation level of brand awareness advertising,
where it's just like, Okay, we, we just got to do this always.
But then there's the, you know, the the actual campaigns where
they push specific things, and they do and they stick their
neck out advertising wise, those, you know, those are taken
a hit. That's what you know, that's what people are the,
like, spot. And there's also the thing like specifically with
Spotify, they went to, like during the pandemic they went up
from like, they doubled in size 5000 to like 10,000 employees.
This This was never sustainable. I mean, when, when, when, when
tray, when Treasuries are paying next to nothing Yeah, there you
go. Investors have to put their money somewhere to get a return.
And one might as well put it into podcasting. But But when
that's no longer the case, and the script flips and you can
make guaranteed money somewhere else. You're not going to put
your money into podcasting because it's a joke. So when the
money like when the money dried up, they had no choice but to
reduce headcount. There's this the in the stock price bump,
they got I mean, that's like a, you could call that like a
survival bounce basically the stock price, they it reflects
the fact that being profitable means they just won't go
bankrupt. Like that. It's not like they're going to be
gangbusters. It's not like they're going to make tons of
money. It's just Okay, now they're not going to die.
Adam Curry: It was interesting, because while I was gonna say,
you know, what happened is the same thing. Excuse me, the same
thing that happened with blogging is people thought,
well, I got a blog, I have readers, therefore, I shouldn't
be making money. No, it's just not true. I mean, I spent 16
years with the Vortec, building up an audience. And the first
four years were not sustainable. You know, we took risks, to get
it to where it is, and it was much earlier, you know, the, we
didn't have the tools. There's a lot of things we didn't have. We
were also building the awareness of podcasting. And you know,
we've never done video voice that under the radar, and
anybody can go listen to our donation segments, and you'll
hear that we are able to sustain two families with kids who went
through school and we're doing okay, yeah, it was not Joe Rogan
money. But that's okay. You can have a book, you can have a
message you can have a church he had, there's so many ways that
podcasting is beneficial to humanity that just doesn't
involve this noise, which is numbers and ad rates. And that's
just over for now. It's over. And all we're seeing now is the
is the last jerky moves, you know, like the the corpse is
still twitching on the ground. And that's, let's go to video
because that's where everybody is. You got to be everywhere.
No, no,
Dave Jones: no, no before the defibrillator pads.
Adam Curry: They're not going to help. They're not going to help.
And I, you know, I wish everybody lots of success. But I
think certainly our message is Britain pretty consistent in
this. No, it's just it doesn't work. It doesn't work.
Dave Jones: You know, the listen to podcast weekly review, or
pardon us weekly review. And they were talking about the this
2026 float that that Netflix that mean, excuse me that
Spotify supposedly did that now that's, you know, looming that
I'm sorry.
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. They have to pay back like $2 billion or
something.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. And that's, you know, I'm sure I'm
sure if for sure. That's in there. But one thing that was
interesting is the A saw this phrase, in the same article by
Ben Thompson, where he mentioned that in 2018, Spotify had
renegotiated their royalty rates with the major with the music
labels. Yes. And they rate the deal was, according to him that
the renegotiated lower rate was in exchange for, quote,
guaranteed subscriber growth, unquote, which I
Adam Curry: thought I haven't read. I haven't read the piece
I'll have to read. Okay. I went looking for confirmation
Dave Jones: of this. And I found a few other articles that
mentioned the same thing from that period of time it was it
was coverage. One was from NPR, where it covered where it
covered the renegotiation at the time it happened. It mentions
the same thing. And there was another analysis piece that
happened around that same time, they mentioned the same thing
that basically they had made promises to the record labels
that they would have a specific subscriber growth rate in order
to get those lower royalties. And if the royal if their growth
rate ever went down, dropped below that, that the royalties
would go up. Yeah. You know, that puts a different twist on a
lot of the podcast exclusives. They did like Rogen, the Rogen
stuff in that regard. Yeah, it wasn't an advertising play.
Sure. But it also makes you think, Okay, well, if we can't
meet subscriber growth demands, pulling in a large, popular
exclusive podcast.
Adam Curry: That's, that's what saved them probably.
Dave Jones: Yeah, you get to, let's say you pay out 200
million over over 10 years, or something like that, whoever
whatever the contract was, if that maintains your ability to
have lower royalty rates that could pay for itself easily.
Adam Curry: There's also a cultural problem at Spotify. And
if you recall, I wish I had the clip. I probably don't have any
more. Let me see. It was the CT of this. There were all these
music artists and we seek to Spotify I wish I had that all
these music artists and they were bitching and moaning and
complaining about, you know, that they weren't getting paid
or whatever. And the CT, I think was the CTO. He says, you know,
you really should be happy that we're putting that we have this
platform for you.
Dave Jones: I remember that. Yeah, we I think we played a
clip and yeah, I wish I could find it.
Adam Curry: And, and it just showed, you know, because
initially, Spotify was a if I if I recall, it was a peer to peer
it was kind of like a legal Napster. Initially, it had a
peer to peer distribution system. There was something in
there that changed later. But they've never really, they've
always thought of themselves as hey, we're, we're the big
powerful Spotify, and you should just be happy that we let you
ride along on our coattails. It's just it's just the, the DNA
of the company. I'm not saying it's good or bad. But you know,
so there's no one gets any, this is not going to be any love
going back to them now that they have problems.
Dave Jones: Well, I think they inherited that attitude,
probably from the music labels because the music or the music
labels are that is maybe people arts don't appreciate how big
and serious of a business, the music, stuff that music rights
holders stuff is if you look I saw the other day you posted
something about Rush. Rush is catalog being sold new happened
back in like 2014 or so. There's a rush sold their music catalog
to this company called ole ole is owned, I think majority owned
by the Ontario teachers pension fund. Yeah, so yeah. Big
investment. Yeah, the entire entire Ontario teachers pension
fund now owns lots of music royalty, and music catalogs.
This is huge business a hundreds and hundreds of millions of
dollars. That is owned by pension funds, retirement plans.
The like, these are serious people with high value assets
that must make a return. They're not playing around. No, no,
Adam Curry: no, exactly. Especially if they control it
know if they can if they have control. Absolutely. But this
has been going on for a long time. And David Bowie famously
sold his rights, you know, way back a Shoe Man was in the late
90s for 50 million when 50 million was 50 million. So
anyway, long story short, we need to reset what's not we I
think we're actually pretty good. I think value for value is
starting to show. Benefit. I think that the value for value
music is where we have a lot so much room to grow. We can we can
absolutely supplant radio, I mean, radios got the numbers on
radio are humongous. But it's also expensive to operate. I
heart I heart, which owns a lot of stations, not a very healthy
company financially. And you know, it's only going to get
worse, Sirius XM, they're going to have to shoot birds in this
space. Again, these things do expire. Now, I don't think
interest rates are coming down anytime soon. I don't either. So
it's going it's going to be tough for a lot of this. And as
long
Dave Jones: as that rate dropped yesterday to 3.7 on the wrong,
that'd be
Adam Curry: the opposite. They say exactly the opposite of what
they want. Yeah. So it's so it's so crooked in the world that the
Federal Reserve who prints the US dollar is happy when more
people are out of work. It's amazing. Yeah,
Dave Jones: that's what they're cheering
Adam Curry: they're cheering for it. Yes, exactly.
Dave Jones: I brought I brought clips from the media roundtable
speaking of radios, because a couple of radio guys know now
Adam Curry: this, I heard this. So I'll be interested in going
clips up you picked. But this is one of these guys is the
professor who teaches podcast does he teach podcasting? What
is his actual? What is his course that he teaches? Is audio
podcast,
Dave Jones: podcasting or something like that? I'm not
sure he's the podcast, professor. I don't know.
Adam Curry: I mean, I've sparred with him on on Twitter a long
time ago. I'm like, What is wrong with you?
Dave Jones: I'm sure he's a great guy. I'm not impressed by
his analysis. I mean, I'll just put my cards on the table. I
mean, which sounds silly because he's a radio veteran. And I'm,
you know, I'm just an IT guy. But, I mean, I think I can make
the point that some of the analysis is just it has some
fundamental contradictions that make me question the whole
thing. So let's let's just start off by the basic thesis. And I
want to I want to drive a point here, that so they start off by,
he mentioned, well, let me set it up. So this is the media
roundtable show. This is Oxford road advertising agency. And
this is Dan Granger, I believe is his name interviewing Steven
Goldstein. And Steven Goldstein is the guy who's a professor at
NYU teaches a class on podcasting. But he's also an
advertising guy. So these just the context here is these are
two advertising guys that came into the podcasting world from
radio according to what they have described themselves. So
they his so Goldstein, I think, had a hand a pretty big hand in
the study a few months ago that said that most people listen to
their podcasts on YouTube. He
Adam Curry: is his amplify media, I think is his that's his
thing.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, advertising is what is
advertised? Yes. Advertising. Yeah. So they he is advocating
for moving what he's saying moving beyond the RSS feed,
Unknown: once a podcast, because I think that's where we are at
this moment. This takes us up to today. You know, does it have to
have that RSS feed? Or is it likely to be something else? And
I think about this, and we'll talk about this probably quite a
bit. I think about this. Outside of podcast terms, I think about
things like NBC, they used to feed shows to affiliates around
the country. That's not the business they're in anymore. And
weirdly, they used to pay the affiliates. Now the affiliates
pay them. But their content is on apps and streams and it's all
over the place. They're going to do whatever it takes, including
YouTube, to get audience. And that's where we are in
podcasting.
Adam Curry: That's where you are in podcasting, bro. And I just
want to point out, you know, Steven B said, you know, before
the music is so small drop in the bucket, that's not the
point. All the numbers do what he did with this with this guy
is going to be saying, all of the you got to be the biggest
you got to have more, you got to grow your show. No, no, that's
that's over, that is all going to be over. Nothing will be
sustainable anymore. There's too much media. There's too many
channels, too many streamers. There's too much out there. That
CPMs is no artificial inventory shortage that you can create.
Because you you can just create as much as you want. It's a race
to the bottom. So that is over. But the people who are in V for
V music right now, they have never seen any money from
Spotify, or any of the streamers now that they're seeing, okay,
100 bucks, 500 bucks. They're ecstatic. That's the point.
That's where we're going. You don't need to have, you don't
need to have the biggest numbers. You don't need to be
the top of the leaderboard or the rancor. It's just not
necessary in this new model. Well,
Dave Jones: I mean, Harvey Harvey has said, right off the
bat, I've never I've never watched NBC on an app. Like,
yeah, that's there's these these examples of a you know, they're,
these are broadcast television, and now they're doing streaming
and now they're doing, you know, an app, those those, that's a
terrible example because those those streaming apps lose money.
They're all bleeding money, left and right. They're not making
anything this
Adam Curry: Steven Goldstein, he's really a radio guy, the way
I see it. He's a professor and a creator of the business of
podcasting course. But yeah, that's that's the Steinhardt
School of Culture Education, Human Development, okay.
Dave Jones: He goes on to clip to talking to talking about
chasing audience which is good, can we
Unknown: be more pliable and so I would like to think that we
can move past the RSS feed and be more nimble and focus on
garnering audience wherever it comes from.
Adam Curry: Does this guy teach how to make good podcasts or
just how to get ghost collect to collect audience members like
their like their, you know, tarot cards or something?
Dave Jones: was about that it's about advertising in this, you
know, I've been trying to make this point from for a while now
is that there is a what you would, how would you describe
this there is a there, there's a separation in these are
advertising people they've already made the transition from
broadcast radio, to podcasting. There's no loyalty in these in
these people to a particular medium. They are advertising.
They will that when you're in advertising You fought you go to
whichever medium is necessary to sell advertising. Yes, that's,
that's different than the actual pod podcast industry that is
fundamental to the architecture of podcasting. And that's why,
you know, we've we've said many times there is no quote unquote,
podcast industry. Because what the pot when people refer to the
podcast industry, they talk about podcasting as if it's some
hole, but it's not it's actually very fragmented. You have, what
you have underneath podcasting is, Ace is a set of profitable
hosting companies, Buzzsprout, arsons, DICOM, blueberry. And
you have you have them as the substrate upon which the content
is distributed through RSS. And then overlaid on top of that you
have a bunch of ad digital advertising people in those, the
point that I've been trying to make is that those two things
are at Fun, fundamentally, kind of at odds with each other. They
see they you see that RSS isn't going to give you what you want,
as an advertising person. Right? You're just going to bail out
and go to YouTube. Yeah, I mean, like, if you click three, he
talks about the, the flexibility, we need more
flexibility than RSS. And that's what he's always talking about.
Unknown: But I think we as people in the podcast space,
need to be what do I want to show we need to be more
flexible?
Adam Curry: I love podcast space. Even the podcast makes
bro. Yeah,
Dave Jones: so he says, in podcasting, we need more, we
need to be more flexible than RSS. Okay, keep that word in
mind. This was talking about the, with the some of the
fundamental contradictions of the things that are being said.
So with that in mind, he talks about in in, in clip four about
what is RSS well, and as you think about the reason that it's
even a discussion, can you just break down for some of the
audience why an RSS feed is a material factor and how we even
decide where to draw our lines? Sure,
Unknown: well, RSS stands for Really Simple Syndication. And
that's primarily what it is, is very flexible.
Adam Curry: But we got to be more flexible.
Dave Jones: Yes, we got to be more flexible, but RSS is flex.
So this, this becomes, you know, there's a certain amount of word
salad that happens here. And it's this this fundamental
difference here between the, the, the podcast between the
average digital advertising people, and the actual people
who are loyal to ad dollars and brand brands, and the podcast,
infrastructure and substrate, people who are loyal to RSS and
podcasting,
Adam Curry: we were like substrate scale, that's good.
That's, that's a sexy word substrate substrate
Dave Jones: seems like an old movie from like, the fifth
Adam Curry: pod subs.
Dave Jones: They and this, this these, one had the, the
substrate infrastructure people have they have a loyalty to what
podcasting is at its foundation. That all sort of comes into play
in clip five here,
Unknown: it is not dynamic. It doesn't come with a lot of data.
A lot of advertisers is you know, far better than I used to
dealing with rich data environments. And podcasting has
some of that, but it doesn't natively have all of that. But
that is what this industry has been built on. And yet, you
know, I don't I don't know why it can't or shouldn't evolve.
Adam Curry: So how come Spotify couldn't do it? Spotify had rich
data. They knew they knew exactly what people were
listening to. And how long why couldn't Spotify make it? Why
couldn't they pull it off? Because this clearly, it's not
just the RSS feed, it's got to be a whole collection of things.
Dave Jones: Yeah. And that and that's the that's a great point.
Because you have what what they're saying is one thing and
what's reality is something different because it's like,
well, advertisers are used to rich data. So do you mean rich
data in the sense of Nielsen ratings, because that's not very
Adam Curry: rich. Now they're talking about total total
spying, connecting you with your friends that you're on the same
network Bluetooth proximity apps that are tracking your your
finger moves, this is the kind of data you know, data brokers,
this is the kind of stuff they're used to. In
Dave Jones: the only people that make big money in that game are
Google. Nobody else may and Facebook fails but he else makes
humongous money in the ad word in that arena, the the
television arena where data is not rich at all that people are
making are making money there. That's that's real. That's real
money being spent. And there's no there's no data. I don't just
watch that on the air and on the air. And I have to report it to
you in a coupon book.
Adam Curry: You know what's interesting, at any moment, any
podcast, app developer, Marco fountain, anybody could create
could put all kinds of tracking stuff in their app, which would,
which would give that app a huge advantage? Over you know, over
everybody else, and you can put the SDKs into your app. It's
amazing. You can do a replay Exactly. See what what somebody
was what they were tapping on their screen. They'll know if
they're hold, if they're listening in bed, if they're
walking, if they're driving in their car, all this stuff is
very normal for apps. Nobody does that, to my knowledge, or
certainly is not selling that rich data. Why not? What is it
about the substrate people that we just don't do that? See, I'm
serious. This is very interesting. Is Are there no
shysters out there? Who would want to do this?
Dave Jones: I think it's because if I'm gonna stick my neck out,
and guess I think it's because we sort of inherently know in
the back of our mind that if we did that, it would be a one shot
deal. And then your audience hates you. Yeah. Take the Money
and Run option. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because you because
as soon as you do that, to your to your customer base, they're
out. They're not you. It's you've changed the narrative on
them. And they're not they're not going to I mean, they're not
going to get it.
Adam Curry: I see almost every week someone yelling at me, what
is this podcasting? 2.0 these apps give me ads. I know, bro,
that's the podcast, you're listening to? That. That's a guy
who's giving you the ads? It's I mean, advertising is not good.
In
Dave Jones: that manner. Yeah, that's the you mean, you want to
hear the pic money shot? Clip six, when is it a podcast? And
when is it not? And where do you think that should go? And
Unknown: I don't care. I gotta I don't care. You know, my
background is content and audience and sales dollars Chase
ears. So let's go find yours. wherever they are. Figure the
mechanics out. Okay,
Adam Curry: well, that's totally fair. Totally fair, totally
fair. Go do the criticism,
Dave Jones: but don't but but the only criticism would be the
enemy, even if it even is a criticism is that's not a
podcast, that is not somebody who is loyal to podcasting, and
trying to make the podcast industry know, into something
into something bigger and better. That is somebody who's
in the advertising industry, and trying to make the advertising
industry bigger and better. And those are two different things.
Because you, you do have people whose jobs and livelihoods
depend on podcasting, not advertising, podcasting. And
when you conflate the two terms, it it can do real damage,
because there it is a it confuses the market.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's there's so much wrong
with the market now. I mean, imagine your immediate buyer and
this, you know, and people saying, hey, everything's down.
Why is it down? Well, it's because of the app is just
downloading was not downloading him. No, that's not it. It's
just down. What is it up down? It's like, there's no clear
answers. Everybody's dancing around it. It's just not. Yes,
you correct. You don't have rich, great data that you have
in other avenues. You just don't. So it's all iOS 17
Dave Jones: fault. Let's just play it. Clearly. Yeah, I
remember Pearl Harbor. Yeah. It was in
Adam Curry: iOS 70. Yeah.
Dave Jones: That I think I mean, like the the download slowdown.
That's an interesting phenomenon to the OP is interesting to me,
because John Spurlock said he's not seeing that same slowdown on
mp3 stats, which means which tells me that the people I would
say op three is biased towards podcasters who are very hands on
with their shows. You know, I mean, they're, they're people.
They're probably people who are very careful and considerate
about the way they do their show stats, they're not just going
out. And if you're if you're choosing Opie three, you've
thought about it. Yes. And you've probably thought about
lots of stuff that relates to your podcast, you're probably a
very careful person in that regard. So this tells me that
that this general slowed down in downloads across the board is
happening outside of that sector of people. Because it doesn't
seem to be happening for shows that are on mp3. Alright.
Interesting that that means that there's there may be just a
general falling off in either listenership to that to the
lower tier of shows or maybe just fatigue on the part of
podcasters that are starting to, to bail out and put shows out at
it at a smaller pace. I don't know what
Adam Curry: now, I heard something interesting that, you
know, how hosting companies have to renew their cert, their IAB
certification before the end of the year, or they know they
won't be, quote unquote, certified? What? Is it possible
that a lot of these companies just like, well, there's not
really a lot of money in advertising anyway, we can give
you you know, the numbers that are compliant, but we're not
gonna what does it cost? What does it what does it cost these
days to? We get certified, I thought
Dave Jones: guards down with the host is like, it was like,
initially, it was like, 50 grand, yeah, but it's gone down
since then. Right. And then they give everybody a coupon
Adam Curry: for a drink.
Dave Jones: You get everybody a mate, you know, like, like, a
gift card to like, drop the price down to like, 12 or
something like that. It's still a lot of money 15
Adam Curry: A lot of money and made me look hosting companies,
their business is very simple. provide good hosting and an
interface and a customer support. Then if it's if it's
going to cost them too much money for not, you know. I don't
know as Nathan Jesus 12 and a half 1000 for a new member. Oh,
they really took it down. 6250 for renewable non member. Oh, if
you're not a member at 17, five and 887 50. So that's a lot of
money. It's realize a lot of money, real money to no money.
Dave Jones: What I don't the hosting companies may be looking
around and seeing that.
Adam Curry: What's the point? That's my point. Exactly.
Dave Jones: Yeah. What's the if So here, you can you can
juxtapose this with the apple, excuse me, not the apple with
the with the podcast slowdown. For some reason that nobody
fully understands yet. All the sudden droid downloads across
the board just dropped 16 17% Except
Adam Curry: for Pocket Casts. That went up. Yeah. I was that
worried?
Dave Jones: So if you have that, if, if if global downloads can
drop by 17%. And nobody knows why, what what's the point of
even having some sort of a beast? Well, that's
Adam Curry: an excellent point. That's how poor the data really
is. We don't even know why.
Dave Jones: Yeah, what I would, you know, as a, as an industry,
everybody could say, well, we're just we're doing it based on the
way that the two point of the last spec that we saw, we're
basing everything on that. And that's good enough. Good.
Adam Curry: Now this stuff has never worked. I mean, they
brought in Terry Semel into YouTube. It's always when you
bring the Hollywood people in oh, we're going to now is going
to look, AOL. AOL bought Time Warner. Come on. It's been going
on forever. Oh, yeah. Wait decision, once we put the
technology with the content is going to be great. No, it just
it. And this is kind of good, because everybody can now blame
it on Kim Kardashian and the Obamas. And Bruce Springsteen
and the other, they can pretty much blame it on everybody
except Joe Rogan. They can blame all this, the Harry AND MEGAN
Oh, it's all their fault, because, you know, Spotify
burned money on them. That that's, that's, I guess, the
upside of what they can do anyway.
Dave Jones: Plus the escape. Escape. Yeah, yeah. I thought.
So I have a cron job that runs every day in it. It sets feed,
feed priority and popularity. So this cron job runs on the
podcast index front end servers. So the the front end API
servers, they log every call for 90 days. And every every every
morning it the cron job runs and looks at yesterday's log and
tallies up for each feed that was requested for episodes. Like
so if a if an app requested an episode list using the episodes
by feed ID and point and that call came from a recognized
developer token that's in a list that I've curated that I'm not
going to say who's in but it's you know, it's pod verse, you
know, fountain it's it's the standard it's it's developed
First who are writing apps that we know are, are legitimate. So
if it meets those criteria, if if one of those apps requested
episode list for a podcast feed, it tallies those up and then
says, okay, the feed popularity needs to be bumped up for the
feed. And the feed and or the feed priority if it's not a pod
being enabled host needs to go up. So in order, basically, its
base is tracking all the time to see what's being requested.
What's being requested, so that then it can begin to inform the
aggregators, the story can reform, dry search about
popularity ranking, and it can form the aggregate gators about
whether they need to pull that feed more often. So that's a
standard thing we've been doing. I've never I've never really
looked at that script. So I went back and looked at it yesterday,
just unlike, you know, wonder, wonder how many feeds this?
Adam Curry: What is this thing doing here? This is Dave's AI.
You let your AI run for a year? Uh huh.
Dave Jones: And it just out of curiosity, I'm like, Okay, a
little through some stats into it. In, in a day in a 24 hour
period, there were 35,169 individual podcast feeds that
were requested.
Adam Curry: That individual wants to be low. Yeah,
individual ones.
Dave Jones: Yes. Individual distinct, unique podcast IDs. I
think that's pretty interesting. So if we have 4.2 9 million
shows in the index, yeah. And on a in under 20, in a typical 24
hour period, less than 40,000 of those are actually being in sort
of interrogated for their episode list and their metadata.
Adam Curry: I would look at jeopardy, I would look at it
differently, I would say, look at your 60 and 90 day, Episode
updates, which is around 400,000. So your almost 40,000
will be 10%. That's how I would look at it because this 4.2
million. Yeah, we know the truth. We know, we know the
truth. Podcasting is much smaller than that. It really is.
So
Dave Jones: yeah, that's a good look. So that out of the
338,000, over, over 30 days, roughly 10. Only about 10% of
the of those shows that update in 30 day period. Anyone
listening
Adam Curry: to this where people are listening to or require
let's be fair, or requesting an episode list?
Dave Jones: And I think the our our numbers conclusive about it
are representing No, but I will say that I mean, shows like, I
mean, podcasts, apps, like pod pod verse and fountain. In
specifically those two have very long, I mean, they have a lot of
client of users. Yeah, lots of users. And those. While this may
not be wholly representative, it's a pretty good number. I
mean, I feel good about this number that if you just step
back and say okay, how many shows do you think, are actually
something that people listen to? across across the board or
globally? How many shows that if I told, you know, we know, we
know how many update,
Adam Curry: you'd have to give me uniques per week, per month,
then we need to know, we need to know frequency of update of each
of these individual shows. But yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We'll
Dave Jones: take take the 90 day stat on the index 462,000. So
that's how many shows that have published an episode in the last
90 days. If, if even if you know that number, am I okay? Well,
those are how many those are how many feeds that are publishing
episode episodes? Well, then, and we know there's some
duplicates in there and that kind of thing. So we know,
there's a margin of error. But if if you then say, if I want me
to come at it this way, if I if I said, if I told you if we were
talking and I said, Hey, you know what? I bet you the number
of shows that people actually listened to on a daily basis is
less than 50,000. Would that surprise you?
Adam Curry: On that's only across our apps.
Dave Jones: I'm thinking across the board.
Adam Curry: Well, why because this is only this is not. This
is only our apps. I mean, you think yeah,
Dave Jones: no but our apps Ruth showed 35,000 If I say 50,000 or
less, I just have this gut feeling that the number of shows
that people actively tune into and listen to on a daily basis
across the globe is in the five digit range.
Adam Curry: Could be the could be, and still a lot. Oh,
Dave Jones: it's a it's a lot. There's not a criticism saying
that these could be it's a sort of a real is a real reality
check in a way?
Adam Curry: Well, I don't know if you can, if you can slice and
dice it that way. Because, you know, all of our apps have, you
know, under combined probably have under 1% market share of
what people are using to listen to podcasts.
Dave Jones: So, but it would, but ours would be representative
of a whole, you know, because if you take that you take the
audience that is let's say if if pod verse has, if pod verse says
10,000 10,000 users and Apple podcasts has 10 million? Well,
the the range, the list of shows that they that doesn't affect
the number of users doesn't necessarily mean that the range
of shows are going to be different. And so what you know,
like what I'm saying, you're just gonna have more downloads,
but that doesn't mean you're listening to more shows.
Adam Curry: Okay. Yeah. Well, also, this is, you know, this
data that you're talking about is not download data. This is
like someone actively is looking for something as a real human
probably doing something. Yes. Possibly,
Dave Jones: I mean, that you could say searches would be more
of an indicator that this is probably this is more like
things that are actually there would be initial subscriptions,
or catch ups, aggregation help, you know, things like that. I
don't know, it's something I want to look at over time, and
just out of curiosity, not because there's any, you know,
immense value to it. But it's just, it would not be shocking,
if it's, if it's a five digit number of how many shows people
out of out of all these shows that people actually listen to
on a daily basis.
Adam Curry: And it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, 50,000, it
wouldn't surprise me on a global basis, I guess. Yeah. Because
Dave Jones: that's actually a lot of shows. I mean, a 50,000
shows a lot of podcast. That's a lot of I mean, that's, that's,
you know, a factor of, of 10 more television shows and stuff
than there are likely Yeah. So you're already way you're that's
so much content that you're way out on a limb already. So I
don't know. It's just a point of curiosity to me.
Adam Curry: I have a couple things on my list. One is pod
roll. So you've been doing work on that? Yeah. Do you want to
share with the class?
Dave Jones: Well, I'm trying to put it into the I haven't had
much coding time this way. But I'm trying to put that into the
the API calls them actually, we're already generating the,
the lists the JSON lists for those, but now return them in
the, in the actual endpoints for podcast, data. So like, when you
request a feed, it would also show you the pod roll. Okay.
Okay. Right, or the pod roll that that feed is producing, and
it's bandwidth.
Adam Curry: And I guess the question is, how will Daniel J.
Lewis be able to use this to create some magical stats that
he can sell to people? That's
Dave Jones: his job, as I'm not doing his job for him? Right
now?
Adam Curry: I'm just curious if you have any thoughts.
Dave Jones: I mean, he, he can, he can suck it in and then, you
know, start started slicing and dicing and the way he does, he's
got it. If anybody needs more stuff in here, like if you if
you look at those lists, as you said, Daniel, so it made me
think of iTunes IDs. If people need iTunes IDs in there, oh, I
Adam Curry: see what you're saying, Hey, can I hand that
off? Yeah, let me
Dave Jones: know. Because it any the more data that's in there,
the less requests they have, they don't have to just turn
around and hit the API to get it. I'm also doing something for
John, John Booth over transistor, he contacted me
about some, some stuff with POD roll. So I'm doing some stuff
for him. And I'll, I'll talk about that. I think it's gonna
be a new, there's gonna be a new end point for just saying,
Here's a batch of feed IDs. Give me all the current metadata for
all of them. Yeah, and if I can get that to work, right, it
might also solve Daniels problem because Daniel asked for the
iTunes lookup endpoint support multiples right? In a might be
able to combine those two. The way it's funny the way so the
way it works in our database, is we have an apple table and then
we have a newsfeeds table. Now the news feeds table contains
all the podcast feeds. And the apple table contains metadata
that is specific to what the way this thing exists in apple. And
then we have a linkage between the two. So when there's an
iTunes ID in newsfeeds table, it links to that record in the
Apple table. So it can get a little weird because like, like
the at the low level at the underlying level, the where the
endpoints call the low level functions to actually get the
stuff out of the database. It's actually two different
functions. So the podcast by feed ID endpoint, calls a
function called Get feeds by ID three. And that just pulls does
a it does a query on the news feeds table with a whole bunch
of joins for other tables to bring in to point out the
specific data, then, that if you do pod the hit the API endpoint
called podcast by iTunes ID, it actually doesn't request on the
Apple table and joins in all the rest of it. So it's not
Adam Curry: quite a service.
Dave Jones: Yes, just because you can do something with like,
just because you can make something work on the normal
side doesn't mean that it's just a straight like copy paste over
to the other like the the sequels to SQL statements are a
really very different. So it takes like brainpower to, to
say, Okay, this is what I'm doing over here. And now for the
iTunes ID endpoints, I've got to convert that to this equivalent
thing over here. It's not always a straightforward is, is it?
Adam Curry: Bringing up another point, I want to make sure that
Daniel and Sam are both heard activity streams. This isn't
when I hear someone saying no one listens to me. Like, I hear
you, I hear you. So I've obviously I've looked up
activity streams. This is a web standard. So this is supposed to
be the fix for everything. I'm not understanding. Do you have
an opinion on this? Or, you know, I know Sam has baked this
into pod fans, and they've got 30 activity streams, which as
far as I know, is like more like a started kind of like web based
stuff.
Dave Jones: Yes, well, activity streams is the activity streams
is related to the JSON LD JSON LD, which is a way to sort of
schematized JSON. And bring is sort of like a JSON LD is to is
to JSON, sort of what XML was to HTML.
Adam Curry: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, gotcha.
Dave Jones: It's a lot. That's not an you know that that
analogy breaks down. But that's about as close as I can get
right now. It's, it's a way to take a schema. And say, because
inherently, JSON is schema lists, it's a serialization
object serialization, right?
Adam Curry: But but it's the point here, because you know,
this supposedly is some magic potion. If everyone just did
activity streams, we'd have cross app comments, we have
booster grams going back and forth, and I just don't
understand it. Is there, does anyone run their own servers,
their central servers, it just everyone puts a file into their
feed? This is kind of the information I'm not gonna I
Dave Jones: mean, activity streams, activity streams is an
activity pub, I think I've mentioned there on the message
on there, they're two sides of the same coin. I mean, activity
streams is the sort of the baseline of the way activity pub
gets pushed around. So you can say, you know, an AI activity
pub defines a set of, of endpoints and things like this,
where it's like, okay, you can find this data here, you can
find this other data here. There's an inbox and outbox and
actor. And here's where they live. activity streams is the
actual protocol by which those actions take place. So, I mean,
you really, it's hard to separate the two from one
another. In the in, in the sense of, like, what things look like
in the real world. When you're interacting with Mastodon and
stuff, you're interacting with activity pub and activity
streams at the same time. So when do you know Sam's Sam's
took the same a similar approach to what Benjamin Bellamy did
with Casta pod and said, Okay, well, activity streams and
activity. Pub are the social, you know, the Open Social
standard, and there's a A certain you know, object, verb
subject language that happens. And that fits what we sort of do
in podcasting, it's a person is a person, the actor, following
the act, you know, which is the action, a podcast, which is the
subject, I mean, like this, the model fits for what podcasting
is. So you can sort of take that activity stream idea and lay it
on top of podcasting, and you could see how it works. So
that's what Benjamin Bellamy did with caste bodies, like let's
just embrace that, that, that that model and build our thing
around activity streams in, but then expose it with activity
pub, so that is compatible with Mastodon and all these other
things. And, you know, Sam, Sam did the same thing. And it's not
a bad idea. I mean, it's, it's good. The bridge that I'm
building that I haven't had much time to work on this past week.
As mean, it's just my goal is just to get it initially
compatible with activity, productivity pub, right. So
there's follow up. And excuse me, bless,
Adam Curry: good. commuting time. I'm sorry, I tried to get
there.
Dave Jones: So, but but activity streams, that that idea sort of
that model is, yeah, I mean, I think it works. It's just a
matter of how you build it out.
Adam Curry: I mean, what's interesting is that just cross
app comm it's just no app developers care. They have they
have, you know, everyone has some kind of implementation.
It's in there. There's no, there's no, you know, seamless
way to do it. And it just doesn't seem to be some things
you, you just can't force it. If if if the app devs aren't doing
it, then it's just not gonna happen. Doesn't matter what you
choose? Well,
Dave Jones: I get I get inspired by stuff like this. I'm glad
that like Benjamin and Sam. Oh, thank you very PP. Yeah, it's an
object actor, target asset object actor subject. Yes,
target. So the, I mean, I liked this idea. Because if it works,
and it becomes a really nice experience, then then you have
you know, Sam has an app, cast a pod is a platform, excuse me a
hosting platform. Now we have to now Yeah, and then you have then
you have the fediverse over here that is commenting and
interacting with this stuff. Now you have three good sets of
examples. And other apps can now have this rich expand, you have
mini pub from John Spurlock. I guess what I'm trying to say is
the the activity pub activity, you know, world is getting built
around us. Like as, as we speak, there's been a lot of people
that have, you know, been have been kind of irritated by the
slowness of it. But it is building itself. Yeah. And, and
you could choose if you look around a year from now, and
you're like, Oh, this is interesting. There's a lot of
pain. And this is a lot of stuff out there. And you know, oh, it
only takes it only takes a little bit a little bit of code
to and now all of a sudden, I've opened up this interrupt between
my podcast app and and what Sam's doing over here with with
boost, and I can follow this action and I can, I can now
benefit from seeing things over there. And oh, the bunch of
people subscribing to this podcast on pod fans. I can I can
trend that in my thing or show comments. Or
Adam Curry: to be honest, if I just look at pod verse and I
look at our show, you know, which I always make the route
post your your board meeting post. And so you know from the
last show underneath you is Spurlock and then Alex gates,
and then 33 over 10 or head. I mean, this is all Mastodon
comments, but they show up in the app. It's pretty cool. You
just have no way to interact from the app. That's that's the
main that's the main problem I have is like why can't I just
reply here and the app seems
Dave Jones: to end if you guys see me if you go to our website
and go down and look at into an episode and do
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, of course it all tons of comments.
Dave Jones: It is right there. I mean, this is it's all there for
the taking.
Adam Curry: Yeah, when everybody's busy, everybody's
busy. Everyone's busy.
Dave Jones: But But see, that's my point is stuff is getting
built. It is. You know, it's that and we knew this we you
know, we I think we talked about this like a year ago, we started
talking about how the the low hanging fruit was, was plucked.
Yeah. Now the
Adam Curry: hard now the harder now the real work starts.
Dave Jones: Yeah, because the hard stuff involves protocols,
and protocols. Protocols are harder than markup.
Adam Curry: Well, it's a golden age. For us in podcasting,
because we are the future being built right now that everything
else is old hat. You it's all gonna happen. It's all it's all
it's people will become more and more aware. People already are I
mean, it's just podcasters need to tell their audiences. That's
all. And it's happening.
Dave Jones: They have I've got something on my list ask you
about. Okay. And this is the image copyright thing with that
James had written up, you are an expert in this area, because
you, you have six, did you bring the first loss successful
lawsuit about Creative Commons? or Yes, about you? Yes, sued
people in one when it comes to image copyright infringement?
Specifically? Yes. Do you have thoughts on this whole thing?
Adam Curry: If that's not quite the same as the as the issue
with the Creative Commons lawsuit that I mounted. This is
very unique. The United States has smartly, I think, a whole
bunch of protections for exactly this. I mean, what this reminded
me of, and, you know, James, got it. And we had a little back and
forth. Because, you know, in Australia, I guess there's a lot
of things you don't have, and one of them is, you know, a very
clear way for, you know, a copyright copyright takedown,
there's a process. You know, we're, we're members, so, you
know, like six bucks a year. And then if someone finds something
that we're surfacing, and it's copyrighted, you know, I would
personally say, hey, once you go over those guys, because they're
posting it, but if you want, we'll take it down, you know, no
problem. And there's no, there's no lawsuit involved. What this
really reminded me of, is, there was a guy who worked for me, my,
my company thinks new ideas. And this is in the 90s for what's
his name, but doesn't actually doesn't matter. And he became
incredibly wealthy. In the porn business. He had.
Dave Jones: I've heard you've talked about this guy. Yeah, he
had moved to like LA, he had
Adam Curry: Malibu he had the house in Malibu. He had the
Ferraris he had, you know, his wife was riding horses all day.
And they had, like, the real upscale porn,
Dave Jones: by the end of Bitcoin was a Bitcoin, no, no,
no, no, real upscale
Adam Curry: porn, tie end, high end stuff, like beautifully
shot, you know, etc, beautiful models, the whole thing. And,
and I was just, I'm just talking about that. And he kind of
explains his business, which is not really selling porn to
people. It's copyright lawsuits. And the way it would work is, if
someone had downloaded usually a torrent or a movie from some
file, you know, they they would be snooping IP addresses and
boom, they'd send you a note and say, Hey, you clearly downloaded
this porn. It's ours and $5,000, or we're going to sue you, and
you really don't want that to be out in public, do you? And
that's how they made their money. No way. Yes. That's how
they made their money. And a lot of it because everyone's like, I
mean, it's kind of the, you know, these days is a funny one,
once you get an email says, I saw you I've hijacked your
computer. I saw what you were doing now. Are there anybody
give me a Bitcoin? Yeah, so we've all seen that. But this
this was real. I mean, they would basically blackmail and
then top notch lawyers who would do this all day long. You know,
do 10 a day, no more has 50,000 bucks, and people would do it
like, Oh, crap, you know, I don't want anybody to know that
I was wrong. Especially not that porn, you know, whatever. Yeah,
so that it wreaked a bit of that to me. Now, it was for I
realized it was 450 Australian dollars, like Mach Come on.
That's like a hammer. 20
Dave Jones: bucks. It's like a Big Mac. Yeah. Yeah. That's,
that's an Andrew Jackson.
Adam Curry: So and obviously, I think it's good that the James
wrote this up. I mean, it's, this is this is not something
that happens in America and I guess, bod, pod news is a LLC is
a US company. So he got out of it that way. But you know,
there's all kinds of to me, this is just a shyster. And I would
have been like, oh, yeah, I really want you to come and see.
I don't care. I mean, we've had when we had that guy who was
like, I'm representing Fox News, and you're breaking copyright.
And I said, Okay, boat King, just show me how you represent
Fox News. He never came back with that. And then he come
back, you know, some some time later. Like, I You gotta get
this. This is this is no copyright violation. And we're
happy to take it down. But you got to show me that you actually
represent the owner of this work. And I don't know how we
resolve that. But he went away. He never did. He's never came
back. He just gave up on us. So there's a lot of the shysters
out there. Well,
Dave Jones: it's Like, is it a? Is it a lid? You know that this
does that comes down to? Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? No. I
mean, like this is not legal doesn't mean that it's ethical
Adam Curry: doesn't make the world go round. Porn porn and IP
addresses makes the world go round. That's how you blast in
Malibu. That's how you get the place of Malibu. So that
Dave Jones: whole thing, that whole scam, though, that has
evolved to actual recording of things now subnet that because,
uh, you know, I do cybersecurity a lot for my day job. And a
recent recent thing that I was the conference that I was in was
talking about how this that whole scam where you get the
letter saying, I you know, I got pictures of you, you know, that
that has evolved to where now it's a little bit of a
combination between pig butchering, and that so now you
get contacted, and they're like, in some fake hot girl will chat
you up right lot for a while and get you to actually record
yourself. I don't know, you know, wagon or whatever and send
it to to
Adam Curry: her him and this is going on at your office. No,
Dave Jones: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is this is the new
global scan. Oh, okay. So then in his kitchen, you know who
it's catching? Of course, it's catching teenage boy. Yes,
obviously. And they, they record you? And or excuse me, you
record yourself and send it to them like a dick pic type thing?
Oh, good. Then they're like, oh, you know, check this out. I'm
gonna send this to all your friends on Facebook unless you
give me $200 In the $200 is specifically
Adam Curry: is what is what they think that kid can afford? Yes,
Dave Jones: exactly. They're like, Okay, we can't do so much
that they're that they're gonna freak out and not be able to get
the money we do just enough where they could probably scrape
it together and send it to us. And there was one example of a
guy that got arrested it was doing this scam. He was making
millions off this. I mean, whatever in like 100 a day.
Whenever
Adam Curry: I get any of those emails I send it I reply back.
You owe me a Bitcoin. Have you seen that thing? It's got an
elbow. Give me a break. You owe me for looking at it. No
copyright owner. I'm not that sick. All right, I have first of
all, thank you Dame Jennifer for registering modern podcast
apps.com. She heard me saying I'm boost the grand ball to
modern podcast app. And she's gonna go register that thank
you. Of course, that forwards to our app section chyron dear old
chyron has an issue with with a Shem. And this was an
interesting and I finally dug into it like okay, now I
understand what he's talking about. So he used for his buzz
sprout feed for the value block he used fountain. And I guess so
fountain as the Shem, which is basically the same thing as the
podcaster wallet with the difference. And I don't know if
you can do that with the podcast or wallet.com. But with fountain
you can set value blocks per episode. Correct. Did you know
this?
Dave Jones: In fountain? Yes, I
Adam Curry: did. Yes. So they're writing to the to I guess they
have write permissions. And they'll write b or whatever
splits chyron wants per episode, they'll write that to the value
block.
Dave Jones: is they have a party there in the partner APIA.
Adam Curry: Right, exactly. So now chyron wants to move. He
wants to move his feed. But and I guess he wants to move to a
host that has you know that has it all native in the feed? Now
he's stuck. So the question is, why was he stuck? Because he
doesn't he doesn't have a feed that he doesn't have the
information. There's no feed that he can look at even and
say, Oh, this is this is all the value blocks I had for every
single episode.
Dave Jones: It would be in the index. Yeah. Yes. But
Adam Curry: then but he has to recreate every single one of
those one by one. He needs to he needs to do that anyway, right.
You know, he wants to so his question is, can he export a
feed that has all the value blog, let's just say for
argument's sake, he wants to self host Okay, all right. So,
he needs a feed that has all of his value blocks in there should
that be certainly
Dave Jones: can do a feed so they can do a feed import?
Adam Curry: Correct. So is that something that we should offer?
Which by the way is is an intro is an interesting feature, you
know, download your feed as it is from the index is
interesting.
Dave Jones: That's an that is, I
Adam Curry: mean, especially let's say your host blows up and
just goes away or whatever, I have a perpetual backup, or is
that something fountain should provide since they're providing
the shim functionality?
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, I guess ideally found sheets
should provide it. But that's, you know, we're,
Adam Curry: we're first we'd like to facilitate. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I mean, we're good. We're good guys.
Adam Curry: Speak for yourself. Dave Jones. You owe me five
grand. Hey, I saw your IP address.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yes. Good for you. Yeah, I mean, we could do
that. Yeah, that'd be we could we could export an XML of just
sort of the basic, sort of, like, reconstruct a feed. If you
need, you know, like, hey, I need a feed of this, right?
Yeah, we could, we could do that. I mean, I can build it.
Adam Curry: Which brings me to my final point for this board
meeting. No. OPML. And, um,
Dave Jones: are you gonna, are you gonna? Are you gonna bust my
chops for No,
Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a
question, a philosophical question. Oh, my favorite can so
OPML is the most misunderstood format in the world. affirmed.
Yes. And, and this, and this kind of came to me when I saw
Christopher icing who he was publishing an OPML file of the,
you know, a day's worth of pod pings, which I'm like, this is
cool. So I go to import that OPML in my freedom controller,
and it basically just shows me a whole list of empty links,
there's nothing in there. And OPML has been OPML is, which is
outline processor Markup Language. If people follow the
spec, it is a very powerful, powerful format that we could
use for so much more than just subscription lists. You know,
I'm saying, and you could export lots of basically your data. You
know, it was like the idea of take your data with you, it will
be much more than just your, than just your subscriptions. It
could be, you know, your, your wallets. It could be all kinds
of stuff we could put in there. And there's, you know, I think
you and I have always seen future possibilities for OPML as
a format for all kinds of social activities. Yes. Is it worth
telling everybody please go look at the spec and do it right. Or
is it is there so much misinformation out there that
it'll just never happen?
Dave Jones: Well, he's doing it wrong,
Adam Curry: everybody, everybody does it wrong. I mean, if I if I
take any, any OPML export from any app, and I want to import it
into a proper OPML Outliner, which never works.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean,
Adam Curry: never will. Not a single one of them.
Dave Jones: I mean, OPML is, people. The biggest issue with
OPML is that it's married to RSS in a way that's wrong. People
think that OPML is just an RSS subscription list. Yeah, that's
right. It'd be a Mel's not it's not it's OPML is its own thing.
It existed before. RSS subscription lists were a thing.
Our sister scription lists were just a use case for OPML. But
OPML itself is, is a completely independent self self says, you
know, sufficient markup language. And I don't know, I
mean, I don't know where the I don't know where to put that.
Adam Curry: I just wanted to bring it up, you know, because
I'll tell you, here's what I find with OPML. I do all my show
notes. In an outliner, on the freedom controller, I publish an
HTML, and I publish an OPML. And because I've consistently for
about 10 years, published an OPML being at.io exists, you
know, there's been search engines built. And if you look
at if you look at an OPML file, from no agenda, as an example,
from clips, to articles, offline versions of articles, all of it
is all beautifully organized in an XML format happens to be OPML
it's collapsible, it's such a rich format. There's so much
that people could do with it. And I don't know maybe, maybe
it's that that that train has left the station. I don't know.
I've always loved it. I've always thought that's so cool.
You know?
Dave Jones: Yeah, ever when we need us, you know, we just need
the sheer Europian mail for for podcasting again, and that's
probably something that because, well, this you know what, I'm
gonna put that on If
Adam Curry: we put in, I don't know, eight years worth of work
into the freedom controller, eight years worth, and we had s
OPML, we had this whole social construct, which, which
integrates seamlessly with RSS feeds, it updates automatically
when there's an update from from, you know, an RSS feed,
which, you know, is inherently wasn't even a podcast feed, you
know, just a blog post. I mean, there's so much beauty in there.
That is
Dave Jones: going to be my that is going to be my Christmas
present to you as a share your OPML endpoint in the API. Okay,
let's, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's to, let's do that. Here's,
here's how we could do it. We make it we make it where we it
will accept an OPML file. So you're in your in, you're in pod
fans, and you and you export your feed list and want to in an
option can pop up and say, Do you want to share this
anonymized feed list with the podcast index? There you go. We
say yes, they send this they send us the XML through through
an endpoint post opera post action. Uh huh. We take it and
we interpret it. We decode the the OPML into a pod role.
Basically, we save the OPML. But then we but we treat it as a pod
role. So that you so it's a way for people to share their
subscription list
Adam Curry: I got I like it. I like it. What do you think? I
like? Is that my Christmas present? Yeah. Could I have that
I have the sweater. Still 2024
Dave Jones: Next. Next Christmas. already sent you your
Christmas razor for this year. You did you get it yet?
Adam Curry: Yeah. You actually. Now I feel like it's like a
heel. You sent me a Christmas present? Well,
Dave Jones: that's my strategy every year is to send you one
and make you feel like crap.
Adam Curry: Well worked again. I haven't even received it. And I
feel like crap. I feel like crap in general today, just cuz I'm
sick. And now you've made me feel even sicker. Thanks, nuts
and everybody else and lots of Christmas presents. Yes, you do.
I know. You're good at that. You're
Dave Jones: gonna like it. I just hope you have a DVD player.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I got I got something that yeah, I got a
computer that will play that. Can't wait. Okay. Can't wait to
see what you've dug up. Now. Dave Jones. As
Dave Jones: long as you get a DVD player good. Yes. I do. I
guess now porn is not to porn from your guest premiere, buddy.
Okay. All right. Good. Good.
Adam Curry: Because you get sued for that. $5,000 That's how it
goes. Five grand, maybe five grand. Ah, shall we say thanks
for people? Yeah, sure. We've been getting a couple of booths
here. As we move towards the holidays. Quite an odd isn't
nice booths here. Oh, hey, Kim.
Dave Jones: Can I ask you something real quick Jeff, come
before you do that. What? I'm trying to get James on the show
because we usually have him on for Christmas week. What what
day, do you what's your Christmas look like?
Adam Curry: Oh, what was that? We're gonna have to coordinate
that. I got to take a look. Yeah,
Dave Jones: that's what I figured. Yeah. You're gonna be
you might be busy with family. Oh,
Adam Curry: no, we have events you know. But it's all in and
around town. We're not traveling. But we do have event
we've got events, we got dinners and we got all kinds of stuff so
we figured we
Dave Jones: always have to do him at night anyway because it
timezone site so we could do it like one night Why doesn't
Adam Curry: he just get up in the middle of the night?
Dave Jones: If he's willing three o'clock in the morning?
Yeah, come on. He might not be coherent if he wants
Adam Curry: to be on the mighty podcasting 2.0 boardroom that'd
be a fun show. Thank you Dobby das are says blue. 7500
Satoshis. And he reminds me correctly. Ainsley. Costello
feed is up. Yeah, this is good. This is the live concert. This
is going to be to December 20 December 21 mandovi. Das is such
a hero. He he got the feed up he got the you know, connected the
stream. And he then went and checked every single podcast app
to make sure that you know what worked and what didn't guess
what everybody's got work to do. That was on test day. Yeah, test
day. Exactly. And so here he has links for pod fans for pod
verse. Podcast guru curio Kassar beautiful. So you can find that
Well, I guess you could find this in the in the chapters if
you go to the chapters, not not the Table of Contents where you
can find it as flipped by at this very moment as I'm talking
about it. Thank you Dobby Das. Now Sam Sethi boostin laid over
there in the UK to two booths here to boosted ramps and 1000s
SATs I'll go in reverse order activity streams are used. Oh,
it's actually the same. He boasts booster twice. Same, same
message. Thanks, Sam. activity streams are user generated
events. The user owns this just as the podcasts or owns the RSS.
All apps could publish activity streams to the podcast index.
Then like Saturn, I could see the action verb boost. And now
we have cross app comments.
Dave Jones: Yep, yeah, it's yes. The protocol for for user
actions. Yep. Right. Okay,
Adam Curry: so we just everyone needs to build that in Okay done
taking care of
Dave Jones: these rights. I mean, like, it's essentially
the, the, you know, his ideas boost that it integrates with
booster grams and weight because booster gram is just an action
that I users taking. So you can represent that with an X with an
activity stream event. Right? Would you absolutely for sure.
Adam Curry: We have Dred Scott. Even though he I think he's
supposed to be on a long weekend with his wife, but I don't know
he's Treb 45678 Thank you, brother. That's actual money
these days. With the bitcoin price salty crayon checks in
with a row of ducks had to reboot since pod verse is under
duress. Oh, no.
Dave Jones: What's wrong? I
Adam Curry: don't know. I don't know it's under duress, health
karma boost for the pod father. Thank you new chair boosts for
the pod sage. Hopefully the new chair is beef milkshakes. 35 by
five in the pipe. Mike Newman checks in Draper boosts 77,777
SATs and no notes off the crayon again with 4040 and there's
comic strip blogger. Oh, love this 10,000 SATs wishing you a
Merry crip crypt mus he says crypto must and a happy new fork
Bitcoiners yo CSB.
Dave Jones: Alright GCSB with the Engel with the English puns,
yes, yes.
Adam Curry: Crazy. What do you have on your list? Dave? That
was that was all the live boosts that came in?
Dave Jones: Well, I've got I've got Oscar and the boys of
fountains in us $200 from PayPal.
Adam Curry: Oh boy. Thank you so much. Oh
Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze only Ambala Thank
Adam Curry: you. Those things help
Dave Jones: me in the office this this podcast room was so
nice now with the new chairs with the assessment some time
this couple of nights ago rearrange and everything got
rearranged the reason I rearranged because I finally got
a UPS battery backup unit. Oh, this is way to go, man. Yeah,
yeah. ordered that thing you sent it. It's pretty
Adam Curry: powerful. It'll run a lot of gear for for a while.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. If it starts beeping at me, I'm going
to rip the stupid vapor out of it. I'm going to D solder that I
haven't
Adam Curry: actually haven't heard it. I don't know if my
beeps or not. It's yeah, it's an it's an a server rack cabinet.
Dave Jones: So I haven't heard you gotta write yet a 19 inch
rack. I
Adam Curry: do. I got I got one of those that you sit on the
floor. So it's like it's like a quarter rack height. And yeah, I
got all my stuff in there. Yeah, I got the got the five gigabit
fiber router in there. And I've got my start nine in there.
Dave Jones: I know drip? drips that heck, you already have a
UPS I tiga. Right? No, no. So
Adam Curry: I have the generator. So so when the power
goes out, there's always this 25 second delay in cases just a
brownout. So the studio stays on. And then the generator kicks
in. Everything's beautiful. Amen.
Dave Jones: I'm good now gold. Yeah. Dumb. I'm uptight. So.
Thank you, Oscar. Appreciate that. $200 Yes, thank you that's
very meaningful. Jean Everett 2222. Through fountain he just
says
Adam Curry: boost boost boost. Gene
Dave Jones: bein 20 to 20 tubes erode ducts through cast Maddox
as a podcast app that integrates into download you to integrate
in a download, downloaded YouTube video would be awesome
as most YouTube downloads ended up being ad free.
Adam Curry: Now that I saw, there was a lot going on about
this. I saw Mitch was looking at it. And Alex gave said Well,
here's how you do it. And I don't know if anyone actually
took any action on that.
Dave Jones: Yeah, from what I heard from what Alex said, it's
just at the heart of it's just an HLS stream, so it should work
Adam Curry: without anchor, so I guess we'll see any app that
will do this. Ainsley Costello video feed will also be able to
do this with a YouTube item. Suppose as the reason Okay, all
right, well, maybe I'll try it. Do it. I mean, how can I screw
up my feeds any worse than I already do? I mean, everything's
a mess. You've
Dave Jones: had such success with lit I think you should try
this thing. It's just harder.
Adam Curry: Listen Let is really working for me is John
Spurlock's making fun of me. Like,
Dave Jones: what was your time zones? Your time zone? Yeah,
well, I
Adam Curry: mean, it's for me it's like this like AMPM is like
when I set it and then I don't check it and it's just, I need
to pay more attention. I need to pay more attention to it. It's
hilarious hilariously bad. Hey, some
Dave Jones: people are still posting on Mastodon will be live
in 15 minutes. So I think you're, you're already ahead of
the curve. Plus one to see this gene been 20 to 22. Another road
dose from Gene Benitez plus one to super chapters. And the way
that could integrate could be integrated with podcast hosts
existing chapter creation interfaces. It solves the UX
aspect in a very clean and simple way. Well, I
Adam Curry: didn't understand that at all. You remember super
chapters as we're Oh yes. Dovizioso super chapters. Yeah,
yeah. works beautifully. It's a great it's a great way to
explain it to people.
Dave Jones: So Brian of London 1948 Happy Hanukkah Brian. Yes.
He says to cast magic he says I hate it but I agree. Posh
podcasting 2.0 no agenda and fucking pivot. I can't help
myself.
Adam Curry: It's harsh, man. Yes, I can't help myself either.
I mean it's crazy how loyal I am to my hate Listen, which is
pivot it's it's unbelievable it's I'm very less like oh, it's
Tuesday. Oh it's Friday my hate listeners out yeah I can't wait.
isn't as
Dave Jones: I've got a new hate on the media as my I didn't have
a hate Listen
Adam Curry: well on the now. They had a repeat that a repeat
this midweek show. That was lame. I know. It was boring.
There's like from January on the media is a good hate. Listen.
And after the after the
Dave Jones: Trump thing. I'm like they've got he's gotten me
by the short hairs.
Adam Curry: I wish they were 2.0 boost them. I boost my hate.
Dave Jones: I would do that. Do 500 SATs a minute. Boost. Hey,
Adam Curry: what did I hear you now? 1001 SATs per minute?
Dave Jones: Yeah, you shamed me publicly shamed.
Adam Curry: I didn't shame you. I never said anything about it.
I have not mentioned my, my booths size at all on my stream
size at all. I have not streamed my my powerful stream. I have
not mentioned that at all. I keep I keep my support on the
QT.
Dave Jones: I'm your co host and if you publicly revealed that
you have a fat stream as to reveal the size of mastering
Adam Curry: but again, I didn't reveal that my stream was fat.
It got
Dave Jones: it got revealed. So I had to respond. So there's no
privacy
Adam Curry: anymore. You know, man, look at this. Look at the
fatness of that guy stream.
Dave Jones: Check out this enormous boost. RP 1984 4000
SATs to fountain says back in September I read a blog post
about set based advertising in response to Chris Fisher and a
discussion he had on office hours about the ad pocalypse
hitting podcasting by ideas similar to what you were talking
about and thought you maybe you'd like it. He has a link
here tools because it's like a blog post. Yeah, he says also
this is not a thought of it first boost. Many people thought
of it before I did PS 12345 Spaceballs boost is a boost
level over edubirdie network they even have for it.
Adam Curry: Spaceballs from the movie Spaceballs? I got it
Dave Jones: yeah, that was the 12345 was the combination I
Adam Curry: so I think that didn't fountain basically try
this. They tried to get the they would give people SATs for
listening to ads. I don't think it went anywhere. I think it
kind of petered out. So I'm not sure I'm not sure if I've never
really believed in that idea. Like, I'll let you know I'll
give you my time. I'll listen to your ads if you pay me I just
don't know this never quite felt right to me. I don't know. I've
never seen implementation.
Dave Jones: Karen it's mere mortals podcast 16292 fountains
has been awhile since I had an episode where I understood
almost nothing I guess are cool.
Adam Curry: Podcasts are cool. But I believe me I don't
understand either. chyron I'm just hanging on to Dave's
coattails. Rene
Dave Jones: nega paying three five to one sets through pod
verse he says we still have that stupid policy. Okay. All right.
That's interesting grammar says we still have that stupid taxes.
But the promise we could download not upload anything
anywhere except so oh him. I think he's talking about the
recordable media tax that you were talking about.
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wait, and so he's in Holland
right now They probably they probably don't pay for it they
do pay for it so we have this commies
Dave Jones: stupid taxes with the promise we could download
not upload anything anywhere except software then they said
no more downloading and still taxes on everything was storage
everything I still download of course yeah wow you criminal
Adam Curry: we got your IP address you gotta let her come
in here my lawyer five grand Karen
Dave Jones: again 2222 from curio carry caster from the mere
mortals podcast. He says sent an email just clarify my problem
from the last episode. Hope it helps. Yes it did.
Adam Curry: We've already fixed your problem. We're going to fix
it. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I will. I will put a XML export on the thingamajigger
Adam Curry: the thing in the JPI Yes, that's great. That's great
and Jaeger dot podcast and next thing you have a jigger,
Dave Jones: monthlies. We get to see pod verse $50. Thank you pod
verse. Mitch and Kreon. Brendon apod, page $25. Part gram $1.
Joseph maraca $5 Emilio Kendall, Molina $4, new media $1 and
basil Philip $25. Thank you, basil and Lauren ball. $24.20.
Thank you, Lauren. And that's our group.
Adam Curry: Yeah, we appreciate these. These are this is value
for value. We've been talking about it. This is a great
example of how value for value works. And the proof is in the
pudding. Yeah, we're smoking her own dope here. Let me go take a
look at that. Yes, Italico, the tally coin stuff, you can go to
podcast index.org. Down at the bottom, there's two links. One
is for your Fiat fun coupons. That's for the PayPal. Another
one is we'll take you to our on chain Support Portal, which no
one has used since October 27. But of course, what we really
want you to do is get a modern podcast app. Thank you, Dame
Jennifer modern podcast apps.com. Fill up your filler up
and boost SEO to your heart's delight. And does what? It it's
interesting to see I guess, just before we end here, I'm seeing
more and more apps start to integrate the breeze SDK. I'm
reading about not not our apps, but you know, general lightning
apps. And and man, is the Albey must really be growing fast.
Because you know, they're they're really trying to keep
everybody I guess under a million SATs in your wallet.
It's like, you know, please, we don't I guess they don't want
the responsibility, which I can totally understand. Yeah, for
Dave Jones: sure. I wonder, when do you think? Do you think
Royer? Somebody? He did a breeze SDK overview once before? Do you
think he'd be willing to do one just for the podcast developers?
Adam Curry: I would I think that would be fantastic. I know that
Steven bellows looked at it, but it's doesn't really work. Well,
for the PW A's. Yes,
Dave Jones: alpha first. Yeah, web apps are gonna be that's
gonna be tough.
Adam Curry: Why is that?
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, because you got you got to have
your keys and everything visible. Like, if you're if
you're a web only app, and you don't have a server back end,
you you can't, you've really essentially can't have any
secrets. No. You know what I mean? Because you because it's
all going to be visible somewhere. Because the only
thing there that the code that runs everything is right there
in the browser. So you can't hide it. So you can't he really
he can't even have like, like podcast index API tokens. It's
right there.
Adam Curry: I thought curio Kassar use the server. Maybe I'm
wrong. Yeah,
Dave Jones: Matthew, I'm not sure how he's doing it. But
that's just a general problem with PW A's and he may have like
one small back end server, but it might not be enough to do
sort of this for this level of processing. And
Adam Curry: actually, I thought that that lb was going to do an
integration with the breeze SDK. So maybe, maybe we still have to
ask well, first image we know we talked about if we get to the
Get out, guys. Yeah. I noticed that they didn't knock your door
down when you mentioned it before that like I got no time
for these podcasts. I hate to say hey, like no, do Nasir man
like come on
Dave Jones: I've got it. I made a note of mustard to myself. Do
you got
Adam Curry: a lot of notes? How are we going to how are we going
to finish out this year with all these notes there's so much to
do.
Dave Jones: See Bumi and more. It's one of the 12 more it says
that
Adam Curry: there's a number of more choices in our life. Okay,
all right.
Dave Jones: All right. I get that note we good?
Adam Curry: Yes. All right, brother.
Dave Jones: I wanted to say our hosting fees to like the end of
the year update on our hosting fees were current only paying
665 a month. Wow. Linode
Adam Curry: that's that's, that's up from what it was last
year, isn't it? Yeah, it's nearly
Dave Jones: 100 100 bucks. Yeah. And our Cloudflare bill a month
is 90 bucks.
Adam Curry: So that's not too bad.
Dave Jones: No, it's not bad. That's not bad. We've got some
other stuff in there. Like, you know, we got to pay lawyers and
accountants and all that good stuff. But yeah, that's our
primary. Those are those are two big ones. And
Adam Curry: and our notice I've been seeing is all the every
payment that goes to node stays on the node. We're pretty good
routing node, I think. Yeah. Oh,
Dave Jones: yeah. Forget about that. What how much is what's in
our bill? What's our bill? 202 voltage to voltage? Yeah, 30
years? Yes.
Adam Curry: A little more. Maybe? Yeah, I think it's at
least 100 bucks a month. Probably more.
Dave Jones: Because it because he like he had to like give us
bigger discs or something. Yeah,
Adam Curry: he had. Yes. All kinds of bigger stuff. We have a
very unique situation. It's like nobody has the amount of
transactions we have. It's It's outrageous. Insane. It's insane.
Dave Jones: Okay, did you know that are so every every
transaction that comes through our node, we sink down to a
MySQL database so that we can properly report our own taxes
and our oil and all that. I know you do that? Yeah. Yes. So we
have a cut every note every transaction that's ever come
through our lightning node, the pay podcast and this lightning
node we also have a copy in this MySQL database. Wow. Including
Adam Curry: all the to V records. Yes. Now that's that's
a data bundle. I'd like to mine that would be cool.
Dave Jones: It's where we is how we generate the V for the the
podcast.
Adam Curry: Toss. Yeah, yes, the top top stats. Let's see how
many tops do we have today? While we're at podcast index?
dot top. Let me see today. It is the top 119
Dave Jones: Nice. Yeah, it was 169 last week.
Adam Curry: I see this this reads almost like I love it. I
got the the Italian guy up in fourth place for you started
Yeah, yeah, I always started with that. All sudden, there's
all these Italians like posting on my Twitter like lawyer bla
bla bla, bla, bla, bla bla booster. Grand Ball.
Dave Jones: Solid Italian right there.
Adam Curry: This whole thing reads like boosted Grand Ball
Christmas comes but once a year, morning love from the door falls
bacon on my mind. Nice. Nice. So
Dave Jones: we have all those we have all those in the in the
database. And that database is now 21 gigs.
Unknown: Oh, cool. It's pretty big.
Dave Jones: That's 21 gigs of that's 21 gigs of nothing but
lightning transactions. Gotta love it. Gotta love it three
years with a lightning transaction. So
Adam Curry: do we archive that at a certain point or view? Move
it off into like, do send it to the mountain to tape tape drives
on the mountain.
Dave Jones: Iron Mountain mountain. That'd be fun at
Adam Curry: Costco. This everyone should know about this
Costco does a 14 terabyte drive they're selling a single disc
Seagate 14 terabyte drive for 149 bucks.
Dave Jones: Holy crap.
Adam Curry: That's that's that's pretty cheap, man. Oh,
Dave Jones: that's dirty for a 14 terabyte drive. Yeah.
external drive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 150 bucks. There it is.
Yeah. 149 Do you ever in your life, think that you would see
the day where we'd have 14 terabytes on a single disk?
Adam Curry: Well, considering my first hard drive was for my Mac
Plus, and it was an external 20 megabytes scuzzy drive, which
was, which was big. And I mean, that that that was like a, like
a school bag. That's how big it was. And this got the scuzzy
plug. My
Dave Jones: dad My dad did some work for IBM a long time ago. He
was an RPG as 400 programmer. Oh, yeah. And he got this. He
got this little girl some sort of little pin or something. It
was like a commemorative thing. And it was a one kilobyte chip.
That was like Waco, like static RAM or whatever, in a cold core
memory or something like that. It was like this one megabyte
chip encased in like, a hard blue side or something like
that. It was like this little novelty thing like this is this
is awesome. You know, like is one one megabyte.
Adam Curry: Amazing.
Dave Jones: Well The desk forever like you, you're looking
you just look at it. You're like, oh my god, that
Adam Curry: was one megabyte. Well, do you remember? In order
to download a picture that was one megabyte it would take
literally an hour I think was one megabyte to an hour.
Dave Jones: And you just hoped that it was a progressive JPEG.
Adam Curry: Yeah. So you could see the chick unveil the black
Dave Jones: lacing happens as
Adam Curry: exactly alright everybody now now we've gone too
far. Dave Have yourself a great weekend, brother. You going back
to the office?
Dave Jones: Yep. Okay. Get to film better man. Yeah. Oh, no,
no, actually, I
Adam Curry: I got a second wind here. That's good. No wonder
that smells so bad. No. Thank you all chat room. Thanks for
being here. Thank you for supporting us value to value
podcasting. 2.0 the board room comes back next week. See you
then.
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