Oh, podcasting 2.0 for October 16 2020 This is episode number
seven. Tag your
end of the week, once again, Adam curry along with the man
with the code of gold diamond Dave Jones, everybody. I'm
giving you your WWE entrance, man. Come on, take it. Take it.
I don't know what you're gonna do with this stuff when you
start like, Tag you're it. That's, that's radio go baby.
Here we are, it is the 16th It's a Friday, another week and at
time for another meeting of the Board of Directors of podcast
index.org Since we conduct all our business on the show, it's
where it's where we update each other on the past seven days.
And now it's just been busy in general for me, I think you've
had a pretty busy week two right Dave?
Yeah, yeah, it's been it's it's been crazy. He's been full. I
mean, I've got I was telling you a while ago, I've got like a
desk full of paper here. I mean, there's just so much crap to
talk about. I mean, this may be like a frickin three hour show.
I don't know
now that's okay. Tina has a friend over on the deck. So I'm
I'm gold man. I can I was gonna hide here anyway.
That intro music is is like emotionally confusing. Real is
really you get you get. What happens is you have this killer
intro music. And then we talk we read a namespace.
Who's who said tech couldn't be sexy man. There's nothing wrong
with that. I'm waiting for one of the rock guys to put maybe
the country guys to put together a song with no namespace tags.
It can be done.
Well, I thought all week I'm like, Okay, how can we make this
episode even more boring. Oh, and last week's episode, and I
thought, okay, we can talk about JSON. All righty then. Like, I
mean, that said that sounded like a look at this is a
masterclass in how to shrink your audience.
Right? Yes. Keep it as small as possible. Dave tight. Yeah.
Really tight audience. It's like,
you have those apple in show stats where it shows you It's
like they just wrote now. It's flatline. It's flatline. They're
gone. They're gone. Alright,
we're not even on Apple. I, you know, I never resubmitted once
we got the artwork, I guess I shouldn't do it. It's almost out
of my mind, weirdly enough. For me, I still use overcast.
Because I'm kind of stuck for the security features on iOS.
And I'm using a Apple iPhone seven, which I use around the
house. Because I need speed when
this kind of stuff we're doing overcast still works on the
seven.
Yeah, works great on the seven and the seven is really the
lowest number that will support the the Bluetooth spec for my
hearing aids. That's really that's really the main reason
yeah, because I can stream everything to my hearing aids.
So I can be talking to you, but I could have classical music
going on the background. Or if I jump into a podcast, then jump
on a call, I mean, constantly basically have earbuds in but I
don't know they're in because they're so small and
lightweight. So yeah, it's cool problem to have. It's actually
you know, just being an audio guy, because I have direct
access to 32 channels of compressor limiter across the
spectrum from my heat. So I have a podcast sound on my hearing
aids.
That's insane. Dad wears hearing aids and it's like, I mean, it
took him forever to get he started wearing them years ago
and it took him forever to get this stuff dialed in. Right and
they never were right. And it's just crazy. Yeah,
well, I hate to say it, but these are not your dad's hearing
aids. Yeah. This new stuff. I've got dual quad processors hanging
off each ear. Not kidding ASIC you know they got specific chips
just to do this. They've zero latency.
Can you mind Bitcoin with
ears get warm? That would be cool. Just while you're walking
around. What are you doing? I'm mining Bitcoin.
Adam, your your ears. Your left ear smoking.
Looks like your coins about to drop. Exactly. Exactly. So just
taking a moment here, Dave. We're Episode Seven. Really only
two months that we've been doing this. Congratulations to you on
how expertly you have steered and commandeered and just you
know, it's like everybody loves Dave and I love like seeing that
very good way because you know open source projects can be
very, I've been a part of a couple of them. i We all know
how they can go but this is just great. And I think a lot of it
has to do with it. Such a pent up energy and enthusiasm from
people who have Been working in? I'm gonna say it the podcast
space for a headset. He's known for a while and it's like a
cork. And I was like prop and this justice is bubbling
champagne spraying over everything. I love I love seeing
it. It's it's really go
ahead, go play. You got the clips. I Do I Do you This is
perfect. Do I so five.
Alright, so five. Podcasts are cool. Yes, they are. The super
cool.
That is from that is from the podcast. We just lost. Oh, no.
Did we just break up is the name of this podcast. So just we lost
them to Spotify.
Oh, they got a deal in there. And they're done. That's it?
Yeah. Well,
I want to talk about I've got some clips from them. I don't
want to talk about them. I think we need to talk about some
namespaces at first, but I want to talk. I want to talk about
that. Because I think we've it's worth analyzing what
I'm sorry. I'm just laughing. To make matters worse. Let's not
talk about the cool chicks. Let's talk namespace first. Way
to go, Dave.
Look, it's what everybody's been waiting for. I know. We can't
talk about the fun thing about the boring stuff.
Exactly. Well, I find that fascinating. And of course, I've
been following along at podcast, index dot social, love the
interaction, love all the ideas. And I see a lot of good ideas on
both sides. And then all of a sudden, I see stuff that like
gets implemented. And then I'm just Holy, holy crap. What just
happened here? Did we just do in a week? Because literally, we
announced the namespace last week, didn't we?
Yeah, it was last week show.
Yeah. So within one week, we already have some adoption of
the concept.
Not just the concept, but adoption of the actual I mean,
implementation of the actual tags are happening right now. So
we, we got two tags formalized.
Maybe Maybe I should just back up. If people are just joining
the podcast, and haven't listened from the beginning.
Don't know what RSS is or namespaces you can then turn it
off
or just fast forward to the cool tricky bit, which is coming up
with the what was missing, what was stagnating with imposter
podcasting for a decade or more was extended features
extensibility. And a lot of heroes and valiant efforts have
been been put on the battlefield to get some form of industry
adoption. And I would say mainly, that would depend upon
buy in from Apple, particularly, and there are new players on the
scene. And you know, there's a lot of organizations have been
working on this and trying this. And I think that we just came in
and said, I think we're going to do this. And instead of being
governing bodies or is really just people with their hands in
the mud. Then we just said look, why would just give this shot.
And then all of a sudden, we heard all these things about the
features people had working in their own environments who had
been wishing for every year. And you know, Santa Claus, bring me
this tag. And we just said, Well, what if we just put it all
in there? And we make everybody happy? And gee, we have an
index, which replicates what all the other guys are doing?
They're like Apple, and why don't we give it a shot? I think
you were telling me that, you know, everything outside of
apple and Spotify, who else is 40% of the market? Maybe more,
but maybe whatever it is, like
60 was 60 something percent of the podcast player market
could be wouldn't surprise me. I
think that's I think that's right.
Well, there's a lot that's outside. I'll take 40% Any day.
Heck yeah. I mean. So it turns out when you when you actually
when you open up the namespace and just say, Hey, everybody,
here's here's a here's a spec to get us started. Here's and it
starts off with just the things that everybody already said they
want, right? The it turns out, people want more things also.
Yeah, and it also turns out that people have really good ideas,
no q&a, just need a place to write them down in public and
discuss them. And it's really not any more complicated than
that. As far as, you know, my role in this. You know, of
course, I've got ideas too. And I'm a participant like everybody
else, but my, my sort of overseeing role is really just
chaperoning the whole thing, and in to be a tiebreaker if
something you know, if people can't come to a decision,
there's really nothing thing is not more involved in that. I
mean, everybody, everybody knows generally what is needed and
what they want, is just working out some of the details. And
what we've been doing, you know, we have been trying to be guided
by Dave went whiners rules for standards makers, which I think
is sort of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics. Yeah, for this type
of process.
And I completely agree. And I'm glad you posted that on the
Macedon, because I reread it, I'd seen it, of course, I'd
lived it, to a degree with them. And I understand it much better
now. And just to go back to what you said, we don't quite have
the same dog in the hunt, as every other player that's tried
to do this. And when I say player, I mean, like, you know,
party or whatever. We're coming at it from a very different
standpoint, I don't have anything necessarily, that I
need from hosting. I don't I have, I mean, I'm happy with
everything. will ever use transcripts or, um, transcripts.
Yeah. Will I make them? No, I don't know how to do that, you
know, will it be easy for someone to flip me a URL and all
sudden, I got transcripts and an app, I'll be delighted over the
moon. That'll happen. Yeah, that's gonna happen. And that's
what I think, too. And so to me, it's just, it's like, we've
never we had nothing to defend. We had only to gain, it's like,
we're here for you. This is the whole point is to preserve
podcasting as a platform for free speech means we can have
our own little definition of how we do that. The first one is G,
here's a thought, let everybody have free speech. And let's free
speech ourselves into a namespace. Yeah,
yeah, that, you know, I think that there's been this stuff has
been tried to, they tried to do this stuff before, with
associations, governing bodies, you know, whatever, whatever you
call it. But all these all these different attempts, you know,
let's start a nonprofit and do this kind of stuff. And that is
just like, we see how this stuff works. We see the product, the
end product you get when you go that route, by creating a body,
a standards body, and then designing a spec in private, and
then just releasing it to the public. And what you get, when
that happens is you get things like the Wi Fi Alliance
standard, oh, which the first, the first couple of revisions of
that thing were horrible, you get Bluetooth. I mean, this
thing's been a mess since day one. We know how this stuff
works. And we also know how stuff works with open source
projects, when you throw something out there, which is a
framework or wireframe for an idea. And then you let people
who have legitimate interest in seeing it succeed. We'll hash
out the details. In his it's much more complete, much more
beautiful of a process, collectively, the podcast,
posts, apps, directories, platforms, you take all those
groups together, and you lump them into what you might call
the podcast industry, or the independent podcast industry.
Together, those people are just as powerful. Yes, as Google,
Spotify, Apple, they have just as much power and just as much
voice, but that it's a loosely coupled group of entities. And
they, this, this namespace in this collective effort here is a
unifying force that exerts specifically, I'll give you and
this is a great, this is one way to get into this. Specifically,
the locked tag. Yes. And Buzzsprout implemented this
today, like three hours ago.
Yeah, that's that's a big deal got released that's putting a
stake in the ground man.
All 300,000 of their feeds now have the locked tag in them.
They are enforcing it and they are enforcing it in their
system. If they don't if they see another feed that somebody
tries to import, and it's in it says locked equals yes, they
won't import it until they unlock it. And they also are
locking all of their feeds with this with a tag that that sends
a message to every other player anchor in the industry anchor.
Anchor, by the way, and by the way, anchor Please, guys, this
is the way to go. It'd be perfect. It solves your shit in
one pot in one fell swoop. Don't import with a lock tag. No one
can complain anymore.
You're done. Your PR your PR problems are over.
All right, the press release.
It's not it's not the day it's not that anchor wants people to
do shady so
they didn't have the mechanism.
Yet. There you go. There's mechanism. It's right and it's
as easy as ad thing seriously, like 25 bytes to your RSS feed.
And you're done. You don't have to worry about that anymore.
It's it's one line in an RSS feed and a checkbox on your user
dashboard. And you're done.
And I think that, you know, however they present that to
their customers, is really going to be kind of the standard
because now I'm, I'm about to say to my RSS hosting company,
which is, oh, that's you, Dave. You listening you've created?
Yes, thank you, great customer service, you know, you've
created the tool that I use to create my RSS feed. I want my
lock tag.
Okay, that's gonna take forever. Not sure I can.
I want my lock tag. I mean, I can handle it, of course. But I
still want my lock tag.
The will we'll put it on our owner feature request list we
may get to a next
year. Oh, I think like a suit. I love you.
Yeah, that's Guess who did that? That's just one example of
something that, like users problem right now,
and that users can demand users can demand this. It's that
simple. If you're
if you're Lipson Yeah, blueberry, do it. Yeah. Just if
you do it right now,
if your feeds getting jacked, or if you're worried about it,
demand that you have that. And then all anchor has to do is
say, you know, LOGTAG equals yes, Bork.
Yeah, yeah. And and the thing about this, if if Lipson
blueberry, Captivate transistor, fireside sprout, Buzz, well,
they've already done it. They posted G Poppy and you just get
a pod bean. Just go down. If if those group of hosting hosting
companies implement the tag, and anchor does not tell you
everything you need to know. Yeah. That that's that's a
that's a way to publicly shame the hosting companies that don't
get DNS DNS has had in me, I think we talked about this on
the
very first episode. Yes, yes, yes, we did. We said
let's make podcasting like DNS, where it's its base
infrastructure. And DNS has had this concept of transfer locking
of a domain for 25 years. And that is a simple thing to bring
to the podcasting space. Yeah. Into in, we just did it. And all
you got to do is just now you just have to honor it, and put
it in your feeds. It's super simple.
Thank you, Tom, Tom Rossi and his team. I don't know if he has
a partner, right?
Because Tom and cat, Kevin. Yeah.
Thank you for doing that. Thank you for standing up. But that
that means a lot. Really does. That means that means a lot to
me to just person like that means a lot. So it's just
through it. I'm going to do it. I'd love that attitude.
I do too. And it helps to have somebody just jump in and say,
we're going to implement this right now. Yeah. Well, you know,
that's the other tag that has been formalized is the
transcript. transcripts, captions tag.
Yeah, that was that was a neat. And I'll use the Warren Beatty
phrase he used about Madonna show, that was a neat little
thread to follow. Because there was a lot of opinions, a lot of
different ideas, some actual experiences, and we're just
gonna see the same thing with the chapters. It's I love seeing
that and it's in you know, like, it was pretty damn civil to
Hello was just nice.
Yeah. And it comes down to an hour. I will credit. Day again,
day one or document. I will credit this. His role for this
for the way that went in. The role in question is, if practice
deviates from the spec, change spec. It's as simple as that. If
you have if you're if you're designing a spec, and you find
that people are already doing that thing that you're trying to
design, and they're doing it a different way, just changed the
spec to reflect what's already being done. Exactly. And so
that's what we did. We were we were designing this, we were we
came up with all these ideas. And then Buzzsprout came in and
said, Hey, guys, we we already have like this exact tag, and
guess what it's even called the podcast namespace. They were the
only ones using it. Yeah. And so we said, Great. Show us what
you're doing. And so they showed the tag, they showed all this
stuff. And we kind of bashed it out a little bit and said, You
know what we can we can make transcripts and captions both
fit this one tag with just one optional attribute that you add
for captions. And that way Buzzsprout doesn't have to
change a single frame. Right, right. Right. But if they They
want if anybody else wants to use it, they can do it. And they
also now it gives them this other option. So you just change
the spec to fit what's actually happening. And you make
developers happy
and ended I simples. That's it. I see pod friend already
supported captions. Yeah, that was crazy. I've shown that to
tea now. Like, remember I was telling you about this morning?
thing? She says, Yeah. And I said, look at this is that pod
friend? So yes. Holy shit. This captions in this? Yeah, that's
like, eight hours later. Something is not Yeah,
he doesn't sleep. I don't know what time what timezone
Denmark's on but they they must be on like 24 hour daylight
right now.
Wintertime? Yeah, could be.
Yeah, but no, I mean, he did that, like within a day. It was
perfect. It works just fine.
Yes. Amazing. All right. So since I know, I keep up with
everything I can. I'm also working on phase two of our
mission, which is retooling. Podcasting is a platform of
value. So know that that's, you know, we'll be talking about
that soon. I'd love to get the rundown for you. We already know
about the the captions and the locked. What else do we have on
deck with a namespace? Or you also put a time timeline on it
for phase one lockdown, right?
Well, as I said I was going to and so the time the timeline in
this just this is just has to be the way it goes. Okay? Again,
rules for standards makers, you have to set timelines or else
things never get done. Right. So I'll just read it. Yeah. How
about that? Okay. So it says at some point, when the new ideas
are slow to a trickle, and as a base of compatible software
developed freeze the spec, but provide an extension mechanism.
So new ideas have an outlet, developers need a foundation to
build on one that's fixed and not moving. So that's what we're
doing. The new ideas and the voices surrounding transcripts,
captions, and the locking tag, those there really wasn't much
else there. So we went ahead and finalized, we formalized those
two tags, because they're important. And there was nothing
really else to be mined on those things. So we formalized those,
and then the rest of the rest of fate of the Phase One tags.
Those are going to close and be frozen on November the 15th. So
30 days, well to 16. So November, so almost 30 days from
now. So basically a month from now. All the anything left in
the Phase One tags, it'll it'll just be frozen as is. Okay,
point. Anything beyond that? If anything, any of the tags that
we're not comfortable with in phase one, we'll just be booted
to phase two.
Now what Yeah, what else? Do we have some consensus on? Podcast
verification?
That's built into the LOGTAG. Okay,
all right. Part of it right? Of course, of course. Yeah. And
so we have right now. I'm pulling it up actually printed
this out the day before yesterday, and I was gonna start
highlighting some stuff to talk about on the show. And then,
like, I looked at it this morning and watch through the
trash can, I might change so much already. So, Trent, see, we
got chat chapters. I think we're we're kind of zeroing in on
that. I think. I think we're looking okay on that. If I think
we can fit that into phase one location. There doesn't seem to
be a lot of argument about that anymore. So I
guess my Maidenhead locator didn't make the cut.
I think it's because everybody thought that Maidenhead sounded
dirty.
That sounds ham radio operators, maybe dirty bucks. We are.
That's
it okay. And then we've got some, we've got some good
consensus around persons. So that'll be a way to define.
Yeah, that's been very interesting. I never considered
that I know, Apple implemented some version of it. And I never
really, I mean, I'm a lazy guy. And all things considered, you
know, I don't think any of this helps me at all. I mean, I don't
just don't think about it. I'm probably very wrong. And and
I've also seen some decent conversation about guests, which
I think has become something that people don't want to do.
But the the host tags interesting and I and I will
admit that as not as a podcaster. But as a as a podcast
user. I often will try and find something by somebody's name,
for sure.
I think having that defined I think is great, because then you
can just drop it in and index it in a search and you don't have
to start trying to do all this crazy stuff like my trying to
dig this stuff out of the Description field is like, it's
just so much work. And if you can do that, if you can
structure if you make the data structured in a feed, you have
to worry about that now.
Well, I'm no expert, by longshot, but a lot of the
tagging stuff, to me is mainly meant for search visibility. Is
that a fair assessment? Yeah. So my question is, at what point do
we have to be careful that we're not putting stuff in that is
going to be easily abused? So that was the comment. I liked
reading the I don't know where it was, I was reading a thread
about guests. And I think it may have been Marco, so probably
wasn't on podcast index, or social, from Marco from
overcast. And he was saying, Well, what we have is, look at
all these feeds where, you know, it's like, the like, this guy,
you know, or sound just like him, or just people putting
these names in, in order to surface in search rankings, you
know, very much like putting one feed 15,000 episodes the same
episode.
Yeah. I think that the way you get around that is just with
sanity in the aggregator, you basically say, Well, nobody's
gonna have 45 guests on an episode, right? I mean, you, you
just, you just, you index, the first, you aggregate the first
four or five tags, or however many, you know, I think, I think
a culture of the right way to handle these things will
develop, just look ahead, just like it has with everything
else, right? Because there's, you know, there's a lot, there's
lots of ways to abuse that you can hand code in a whole bunch
of key actions, key words, or write it into categories, you
could put 50 of them in there or not. But I mean, we don't we
don't take any more than eight. Right. So you know, we just
stop. But I think there's, there's abuse, abuse potential
for everything in this Sure. Everything in RSS. So I'm not
too worried about that. Because I think the main, the main
driving force around this as hosting is the hosters. And so
they're, they're going to have some control over their own
systems. Yeah, in order to stop that. But at the end, it's
something like the way it arrays now as per you can define a
person and then give them a role host or guest. And then they can
have an image associated with them, like a little, you know,
snapshot or, or a link to a wiki pedia entry or something like
that, you know, and that, that stuff can just be right there in
the feed. Which is which is cool. And the same for contacts.
You can have multiple points of contact within a feed you can
define a DMC like an abuse, okay, yeah, yeah, sure. Sure,
sure. Or another contact for like, if you want to call it
here's, if you're an advertiser, you want to advertise on my
show, you can contact me through this address. I
saw that one. Yeah, that's all that interesting. So it is so
much like DNS, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, it's like do
DNS with record lookups.
These are different record types. It's like an MX or an A
or a CNAME. Or whatever.
Right? Damn, everything's the same. You know, I
want to I want to stop here for a second. And, and talk about
JSON for a minute, because it's it's something that always comes
up in this discussion. It's a hot topic.
It's a hot topic. Yeah,
it is. It's on everybody's on everybody's tongue these days.
Yeah. Now what?
Just for the uninitiated, is JSON not just some other format
or programming language? Or is it a floor wax and a dessert
topping? I don't know, JSON. I've seen what it looks like.
Here's, here's the JSON. Okay, I see it, but what is it?
It's, it's basically a serialization format for
JavaScript. No, that doesn't help anything at all. But when
you when you want to take a JavaScript object, and, and make
it for lack of a better term, portable, where you where it can
be used outside of the script itself. You can convert it,
basically you call it you serialize it into a text,
textual representation of the objects. JSON
and that and that's information or is also can you make it
executable? No, no,
it's just data. Okay. So it's JSON is JavaScript Object
Notation is what stands for that helps. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well,
that. You know, so what this really came started to get kind
of popular when Brent Simmons and mountain race created the
JSON feeds back to Earth Three years ago,
Brent did that. Okay? Yeah, we know Brent.
Brent Simmons is clearly a legend in the Mac world. Manton,
Reese is a very good programmer. I respect him a lot. He's
microdot blog platform. And those guys are clear. They're
the smartest whip. I mean, and they did. And the JSON feed spec
is wonderful. I got no problems with anything they've done. And
I don't think there's anything really wrong with it at all. The
problem with JSON and the reason that I just can't spend any of
my energy on it, is because Well, number one, I've been down
this road before with JSON feed I was I implemented JSON feed in
the freedom controller, like within a day of it coming out in
the code, there's a, there's a just a up in my GitHub repo list
for that will take an RSS excuse me take a JSON feed and convert
it back to RSS. Okay. And the reason I did that was because
everything internal to the freedom controllers, RSS, it all
expects to be XML, you pass this simple XML objects around all
over the place. And I'm like, Well, I want to consume JSON
feed, in case it becomes a big thing. But I mean, it's
internally, I don't want to react to I can't recode
everything in here. So I created that thing. And so basically,
when when you consume a JSON feed, if you subscribe to it
with a fried mozzarella, which you can get it just it just
morphs it into RSS on the way in. So internally, it's just
XML, right? And it just felt like such a waste. I'm like, you
know, I'm basically taking this this format. I'm just converting
it right back to
XML. Yeah. The you're not getting any benefits? Not
Not really. And the the, the the other? Well, there's a few,
there's a few problems with JSON adoption. Number one, and this
goes back to the rules for standard records, is we'll see
it's one one way is better than two. Yes, one of the is one of
the rules. And that the reason one way is better than two is
because there's always going to be this long tail of adoption.
Where were people that are producing feeds have to produce
both XML and JSON both? Because they don't, because you have to
be sure that you're producing what your consumers can take. So
you have to produce both. And you never know how long you have
to produce both. So you, what happens is you end up having to
produce both forever. Yeah. And nobody wants to do that no
one really wins. No one really wins.
Yes. And that's, that's sort of the main issue. I don't know if
you've heard of, I use this. This analogy on on the mastodon
the other day, I don't know if you've ever heard of Gresham's
Law, which is bad money drives out good is this concept of,
let's just say you have gold versus some kind of fiat
currency, nobody's ever gonna go spend their gold at the grocery
store. You know, everybody's gonna spend the crap money, but
they're gonna keep the good money, the goal for themselves,
and they're gonna be Knology. Yeah, so it's the same type of
deal. It's like, the bad stuff, it may be XML in this scenario
is the bad guy. But it's the one that everybody is already using.
And so everybody's just gonna keep using that one thing,
because to switch means that you're going to have to do this
other complicated thing and put yourself at a potential risk by
by one day, cutting off maybe a certain percentage of your user
base when you drop XML, you just can't do it. And the other thing
is, the other thing about JSON that I think, bothers me so much
is developers. Developers are bad about wanting the one best
thing they want. They want perfection. And I get it. You
know, nobody wants to have a Roku and Amazon Fire Stick and
an Apple TV in their house to watch, you know, all their
shows. Yeah, I maybe that's a bad analogy. But not everybody
has this vision, especially developers are bad about this,
to have this, this fantasy vision of the perfect spec,
where it solves everybody's problem in just because there's
one and that everything is fixed. But that's not the way
anything really works. Right? We have, we have HTML on the web.
HTML is basically XML is a markup language is Markup
Language. Yeah. And nobody is talking about replacing HTML
with JSON. We have yaml, which is a yet another Markup
Language. Exactly, which is a very good markup language for
configuration files is used with things like Docker. I think
Kubernetes uses it a lot. The open API specification uses it.
Lots of things use Yamo. Because it's easy to write. And it's
visually very clear. markup languages have a benefit of
handwriting in ease of reading. JSON is easy to read, when you
have a flat list of just maybe an array or something, the more
complicated JSON gets, it becomes very difficult to write
by hand. And, like if you've seen a large JSON document,
yeah, you you really, it can fry your brain.
Well, that's what I've always liked about RSS. I could look at
it and go, okay. I can probably copy and paste this into Notepad
and put a different URL here and a different name here. And it's
like, Oh, I get it.
Yeah. Well, you did that yesterday. And you're having
some trouble with Oh,
my God. Thanks for Thanks for being my eyes and ears, man. I
was Yeah, I was I didn't know what was going on there for a
moment. But yeah,
well, you can put a stray, you can put a s a spurious curly
bracket into JSON. And you can fork the whole race, everything.
Yeah. Everything in that. And it's just as fragile as XML is
in that regard. So I think we need to get away from this idea
that there's this one perfect spec that needs to be applied to
everything. The world we live in, applies different solutions
to different problems. And what we have in the feed world is we
have RSS, it dominates. It is the master spec for everything
involving news feeds. Right. And that's okay. Yep. You and you
can, I think we need to be very careful in the independent
podcasting world about trying to sever podcasting from the rest
of blogging,
or blogging lately agree.
So there's we index 1.3 something million fates
currently, you can multiply that times 50. And that's how many
blogs there are. I mean, easily. Yeah. So you, it is it behooves
everybody to maintain podcasting, as a subset of blog,
have the same thing that blogging uses to do feeds, the
enclosure tag is there for a reason? And it and it solves
that pretty well. All we have to do is add? Did we add the
namespace on top of it to give podcasters the extra stuff that
they need that blogs may not need?
And the infrastructure is just there, the infrastructure stays
and it's perfect for me
yet? Yeah, I think I think it is, I just think that there's a
way I just think it's a lot of wasted effort to try to, to, to
up end everything and apply a completely new spec to something
that can be solved much more quickly. And I can tell you this
from from a like from a parsing standpoint that our aggregator
uses uses JavaScript. So parsing JSON would be fine. But other
aggregators don't. If I'm if my aggregators written and written
in, in JavaScript, maybe it handles JSON pretty well. But
handling JSON in something like PHP, or Swift or Swift. Now,
Swift, the first, recent recent versions of the Swift language
can handle JSON a little bit better. But the first two or
three versions of, of Swift, my God, JSON was just a nightmare.
It was it was absolutely not a better product than XML. Now is.
So I think we need to be careful about that.
Is this still a big debate about JSON versus RSS or are you just
clarifying as we move into the namespace?
I kind of wanted to clarify my feelings on it. Just so that is
basically to say that I don't have any energy for that debate.
Got it? I just don't. And this, I want to focus all my energy on
what I see as low hanging fruit, which is an XML namespace. And
if if somebody else wants to take on the mantle of trying to
get the entire industry to switch at the same time to a
different format, font, I don't think it'll ever happen. But
that's something that somebody else can do. I'm not doing that.
Yeah. And I just don't think it's necessary. I really do not
think is necessary.
Flag planted.
Yeah. In the, you know, I want to say to that JSON. JSON is
just not I don't I just don't think it's ever gonna gonna
happen. And, and more importantly, I don't think it
needs to. It's, it comes back to that idea that's talked about
just a second ago. It really comes down to it's okay. To have
more than one spec. Like more than one language. Sure. And I
just think we need to be comfortable with that. I am not.
When do we talk about the chicks. JSON man, that's like,
Okay, I got you. No, seriously. No, I understand. I understand
your reasons for saying this. And I appreciate it. I
completely agree. And I adhere to weiners Bible there. I think
he's absolutely right.
We're, I think we're basically the Are we the book TV? Podcast?
Yes, it was, it was interesting conversation we had about JSON
versus RSS. Here's your, your URLs
should be inside of node value.
Yeah, yes. Let's close that tag, and move on.
Do you want to move on to two funny things that chicks say
when they Yeah, when
they go to Spotify? did? Did they? Do we know anything about
a monster contract? Did they cash in?
Okay. We're gonna do that first Monday donations?
Oh, hell yes, of course, we have a nice list to talk about today.
Alright, let's do it. And let me explain the entire concept of
value for value, which is how we're starting this project off,
it's obviously we put our own money into, just get it off the
ground. But the idea is, we need your time, your talent, your
treasure, any combination of those to support the entire
preservation here for podcasting is a platform of free speech, we
intend to, hopefully come up with a way that everybody is in
some kind of value flow, so the index can run by itself. But
you're getting out of it, what you put into it. And, and again,
that's the developers. That's the idea people. It's, it's our
James Cridland, you know, everybody who was a part of this
is is contributing in one way or the other, and they're getting
out of it, what is what is worthwhile to them, for their
own projects, for their own sanity for their own thought
process. And we love it when we can also support the machinery
financially. And that's why we ask for value for value. There's
no limit you can whatever is valuable to you, whatever value
you're getting out of the index, whatever value you're getting
out of this show, which is part of the whole podcasting 2.0
system. Just give it back any way you can. And we've set up a
PayPal, that's it podcast index.org. And we've had some
people jump in and help us out. I think even with some couple of
recurring donations, which really keeps the server's
running.
Totally, there's a big red, there's, you finally get your
big red donation. But I
know the big red donation. Thank you very much, Trent, by the
way, I should say drunk playdough. Who, who did a
phenomenal job. I love how it looks. Our new our new homepage
or landing page. And I really appreciate that it did that for
us. It looks great.
Yeah, it's killer. It looks it looks fantastic. But as well,
we'll talk about that later. I was gonna say talk about the
Search searches better. But I'll talk about that later. In the
connected so I won't forget that. Yeah. So donations. Last,
on the last show. We got a donation, like during the show
for $500. Yeah,
that was from Benjamin.
Yeah. And he said that he would like to make that donation and I
had a cup of some correspondence with him. He said he would like
to have that donation in honor of Aaron Schwartz, which is a
hero of
his Oh, wow. Okay, nice. So, absolutely.
Yeah. And I thought that was a great idea.
We should be honored to have that kind of association.
Clearly he associates Aaron Swartz and his work with what's
going on here. So I take that as a huge compliment.
You know, I was thinking about Aaron Schwartz when he, he wrote
a vision read a really just a really, it honestly was kind of
a moving email about his story. And I was thinking about Aaron
Schwartz. You know, that's been a long time now.
It was a long time ago.
Has that been like, maybe 12 years ago or longer? Well, it's
been a while.
Let me see. Seven years ago.
Okay. Okay. It's just seemed magazines
longer, doesn't it? Yeah. No, it does seem longer.
It's kind of, I don't know, just kind of hit me how long it's
been and how strange of a whole thing. That
whole situation was very strange. Yes.
Yeah. The last thing is, like, based on what we're doing now,
that seems like a very appropriate. Tom at Buzzsprout.
Gave us $1,000. What? Last night? What? Oh, my.
Holy crap. So Tom from Buzzsprout, who's been part of
the part of the group for what two weeks now?
Not even that long week.
He comes in implements part of the spec helps us out with with
stuff they're doing already and supports.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. To get any said. I'm excited. Buzzsprout
can play a part in driving podcasting forward. We're all in
is what he's
beautiful. Oh, man. Thank you so much.
Yeah. Thanks, Tom. That is, that's killing it, man.
Yeah, that's, that's gonna keep us going. Nice. Thank you so
much.
It's so nice to have that because then you, you just don't
You don't have to worry about staying up at night. Thinking
about the bill,
then everybody has to understand my good friend Dave, who has
been thinking about my bills for a decade. without me asking,
it's like, this is too much. What are you paying? There's too
much. Let me see if I can switch this around and proxy this and
I'll do that. And I'll put that upside down. I'll flip flop
that. What's your bill? What's your bill? Like? Yeah, I know,
you care. And it's really appreciated.
Now we get that lick, man. Yeah, we
do. We're frugal baby. We know how to do that. We know how to
run lean and mean. Yeah.
Let's see. Who got we got. So that's Eric Schwartz,
honorarium. And Tom from Buzzsprout. There's see this one
is credited. $50 from Sir bill of Glen rock. Nice. And he says,
Go podcasting Mic drop.
Well, I can give him a Mic drop. I think I got a mic drop for
him. You got to you got to do. You got to do the whole go
podcast and go I have a thing for that go podcasting. We got
people coming over from no agenda and other places go
podcast with a mic drop. Yeah.
I remember that. Thank Thank you, sir. Mr. Glenn. No, sir
bill. Glen rock. That's right. Yeah. David Norman from hyper
capture. He gave us a 20 $25 a month subscription. Wow.
Fantastic. Now, yeah, he's hyper capture. Is that on? Is that a
native app? Or is that a web app? What is hyper capture
is a native app on iOS. And it's a really pretty app. And you and
he he's the one that led like a studio thing where you can? It's
like, uh,
oh, yeah. Yeah, I tried to sign up for something because he was
promoting it. Yeah, it's like for clipping and stuff. I'm
gonna second because I want to I want to I want to eat my dog
food man here. Hyper
hypercube was the first he was the very first developer to put
to use to start using us for search.
Okay, here we go. Yeah, I Propecia, good downloading as we
speak.
He implemented our API. Oh my gosh, it was maybe like, the
first week. It was very, very early. So he put he gave us a
$25 month subscription and so much. Yeah, that keeps you need
a server. See what I got here?
Oh, okay. Yeah, I thought he was web only and I'd signed up for
something and I didn't get a confirmation email and then I
got eight phone calls. And okay, great.
Yeah, now he his app is on iOS and it's very pretty He is a
very beautiful app. And he just implemented this. I looked at it
last night. This is like a newsletter feature where you can
see newsletters and stuff in the app. It's pretty. He's a good
programmer doing some really neat stuff. Thanks, David.
Yeah, I'm looking at now. It's really, it really is pretty. You
can have Yeah, just got it. Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. It's just nice looking. It's just, it's a good feeling
app. And I hope they're, again about the search. I think the
search today is much better than it was yesterday. What did
you tamp down some something happened, you did something and
stuff changed
yet. So what I did was took the all of basically, there's a
script now that's running and is looking at the logs. It's
looking at the last 24 hours of logs all the time. It's it's
looking to see from all the API calls coming from all the
different various people. It's looking to see which pod it's
looking at the ones that are episode, excuse me, feed my ID,
or feed by iTunes ID is looking at those two API endpoints. And
whenever something hits that, it, it bumps the popularity
score up.
Ah, right. So because you can track the search and the click.
Yeah, exactly. Because you can tie together, somebody searched
for this, and then they and then they the next call that comes in
associated with it was they found what they looked for, and
they tapped it got or clicked on or whatever. So you just make
the association. And so we're just doing a popularity score
ranking on that as an integer sticking that in the database,
and then we're just waiting the results based on that in
descending order. Right. And it I mean, instantly, it made the
search 1000. I
saw Yeah, no, I saw it. It was the dust podcast was the search
term that was not working. Right.
Well, was that and also, the daily from the New York Times
was never got better enough. Obviously, if you search for the
words, the daily Yeah, you got to have a ranking. I mean, you
gotta have some sort of sort of way to to wait that. And so
like, all that stuff is now fixed. I mean, all the stuff you
would expect to be in the right order.
I see it there. I see it now. So. So this is basically a whole
wrapper around the API.
Yeah, and it doesn't depend. What I like about it is it
doesn't depend on and this is what took so long to get this is
I have no interest in scraping Apple or some other service to
get this ranking information. I'm just not doing it. I'm gonna
have, we have to find other ways to live outside of that of that
silo. And so this, this is how we do it as more people adopt
the API for their apps. We just use our own internal stats to
figure out what they're looking for. And then then look and get
it. Right. So that is working. So
beautiful. Well, hyper cat, you're now on on deck. We'll
start filling it up. I can't this is nice, fast. Two very
fast. Yeah. It is found like fast apps.
Again. Yeah. So David, you're gonna get you're gonna get the
you're gonna get the second API server, you're gonna get API API
to
with a custom tunnel to your app.
Customers. Yeah.
Thank you, David. Very nice. Really appreciate it.
You had se hope I'm saying this right is so Soren you probably
can pronounce this better than I can. It's it's the the Oh, with
the strike. Yes,
sir. And yeah, that sounds right. Yep. Okay.
He did a automatic subscription monthly subscription for $10 a
month. And that exactly. I'll give you aggregator one and that
you are now paying every month for to support one of the
aggregators. Thank you. Sorry. Yeah, that really helps. It's
just another server bill. We don't have
to worry about that paper. Crumple is a nice touch in this
digital world enjoying it. Do what I can't or analog, man, I
love it.
See, no one. There's two. Okay, two other ones. Day see Derek
Vista. He did a $21 a month subscription, okay. And he is
going to get aggregator for it. Should
you are an actual server now?
Yep. Your Thank you Derek. I couldn't find a note from Derek.
I hope I didn't miss it. If I did do it, please.
What's? What's Derek's? Last name? Can we mentioned
Vickery via SK er. Okay.
See, I just somehow recall the ER ek or ck, d r e. K? This? No,
I don't have anything. Thought I'd saw onset seeing something.
Yeah, I had a couple of disrespectful emails on NC a
note. But thank you, Derek. Yeah, very much. So. Yeah,
subscription. And then Kenneth Brown. And his is a single
donation for $3.33 will take and is note his note was mac and
cheese treasurer. Thank you for your courage. Thank you, for
your courage. Yes, thank
you, indeed. Thank you for your courage.
That's it. That's, that's well, that's her Don't donation guys.
Yeah,
and a great list that is, and thank you all so much for
grasping the concept, understanding it value for
value. And in this case, the treasure, but also a lot of you
with your time and your talent. It's great. Really, really
appreciate it. Again, it's podcast index.org. And there's a
big red donation button at the bottom.
Get cameras. I've been wanting you to do this. Can you? Just
tell? Can you explain why I don't think I think one thing
that that gets lost when people when you talk about value for
value, is that people immediately make the false
association between that. And like a Patreon subscription type
thing. And there's a reason why you don't ask people to do that
y'all never say $5 a month or something like that. You always
leave it completely open. Yes. Can you explain that?
So the value value is kind of the is almost like risk, you
know, everyone assesses their own risk. You know, for one,
parachute jumping is low risk, I won't do it. But yeah, it'll fly
helicopters. Value is kind of the same way. I can't look at
someone and say, Well, you know, whatever you're getting out of
podcasts. index.org is worth $5 to you. Because that may be $5
may be much better spent for that person on something that
they value much higher. So all I'm saying is, take a look. What
kind of value are you getting from this. And that's going to
be so vastly different for a developer to a hosting person to
someone who just likes listen to podcast to someone who just
likes to help people out. And there's people like that, too.
I'm sure some of them are supporting us as well. If you
just ask people to put the value on it that they want. You're
always pleasantly surprised. And I remember this was the no
agenda show. And the way we would talk about it then is
okay, we talked for two hours, you could go to the movies, and
you could sit in a dark room with a friend and take a date,
have a drinks and popcorn could be 50 bucks. Now, you just spent
two hours with us. Was that worth 50? It turns out, many
will say no, you're about a $5 for two hour kind of experience.
But that's true. That's okay. That's what you know. And that
may be and by the way, that $5 may be a lot for that person.
And some people say, Man, I was 500 for me, I don't know, maybe
they're sitting on a goldmine, I don't know. But when you do
that, it's a much, much better transparent process. And no one
ever feels diminished. I keep going back to and I was so
disappointed when iTunes started to sell music. And everything
was valued at 99 cents. And one of my favorite songs, I think
it's the best love songs. I want to hold your hand by the
Beatles. And when you when I look at that, and this is only
99 cents. You know, I think, you know, Sir George Martin who
produced it. I know I can hear the room that it was done in I
can hear Paul and John and just and I like that's that's worth
so much more to me. And if you'd only asked me or said what do
you think it's worth I would have given you so much more. So
I feel shortchanged because I couldn't give you the value that
I thought it was and you know, since they will Apple's a public
company they need to be able to project their revenues and their
and their cost. But we don't have any of that. Which we just
want to keep going from one day to the next and for the last 13
years is how you live My life, my rent was determined by the
value that people got from my work. And if the value was good,
then I could pay rent and and have an extra coffee. And it's
just, it keeps you on your toes, it keeps you doing your best
work. And I feel it makes everybody happy about their
contribution on all sides of the equation.
I remember when I've been listening, I listened to no
agenda for a minimum of 10 years, but maybe, maybe 11. And
I remember when you made the transition, and left me vo to do
to do no agenda full time. And I remember the disk it was the
process. You talked about it for a few weeks. And then you
finally made the jump, you're like I'm doing it. Now they're
pulling the plug. I'm going all in. And, you know, when you did,
when you did that, it was a, it was a risk, because you didn't
know, you didn't, you didn't know whether the donations are
gonna fall off a cliff or anything like that. When you
when you put yourself out there, people step up, it's
mankind at its best. And I was I was talking to my wife I was
talking about, you know, how this is working. And she says,
so everyone comes in, and she's she comes from the nonprofit
world, she has a very different background. She used to be in
banking a long time ago, more in the administrative side. It's
just Okay, so let me understand. So everyone comes in to this
group. And, and they share their software. And they share all the
code and everyone can use it. Yeah. And really? Yeah, yeah, I
know, it sounds strange. But that's some of the most, it's,
like I've said it, this is art, you know, I see art being
created. Yeah, there's science behind it and math and all that.
I just see art, in every everything that's going on in
with the index and with the with the developers and the right now
hyper capture. Everywhere I look as beautiful art, it's it's
expression of how people want to portray something and
experience. It's one of the most beautiful human things there
are. And it's interesting that it's found in this to me, in
this environment. And yeah, that's exactly what it is. And
you know, what is fun, because people can go take that code,
and go off, and they can do stuff together, or they can
build a billion dollar corporation, or they can
continue to just do whatever they want with it just something
for themselves. It's, it's so opposite of the entire world
around us. It's the antithesis of it. It's, it's fantastic. And
then you add some value for value on top of that, to keep
things going. Where we do have to deal with with the outside
world and actual prices and stuff. And I think it's for this
very reason that as we move ahead, we're gonna see everybody
benefiting. And I mean, financially, I see it, I can
taste it, I can taste it.
Yeah. Because the developers and everything they're sharing,
that's the thing is the developers that are making all
this plumbing that didn't make all of this possible. They've
been left out of the loop. And that's the big time. But I mean,
they're, they're left with just trying to, you know, sell a $9
app on the App Store more.
Banner ads are some banner ads. Yeah.
Yeah. And we, you know, that's that's really the focus of phase
two of this is trying to get trying to get bring the bring
the app developers into the loop where they can do value for
value, just like the podcasters can. Yep. Yeah. Thanks for doing
that. Because I think I just hear that I hear you talk about
value for value a lot. And people jump and make the false
they make the incorrect association to, to Oh, yeah, you
mean, hiding some of your content behind a paywall, so
they need so that they give you money to get the value? And
that's just not the way this works?
Yeah, that's okay. That's a very good point. And that's just,
that's just a decision that comes along with with the whole
idea. I've just never and if you say to someone, okay, you want
to listen to this, it's going to cost you 99 cents. If I dropped
$1 and my back hurt, it's very possible. I wouldn't pick it up.
I don't want to sound like I'm a rich guy, because I'm not but
let's be honest about if I dropped three quarters in the
drain, and I could bend down and I could get him. You might not
be bummed but whatever. So you're diminishing an entire
experience down to a number that you can or can't and then people
it's become so unimportant. I think people go if it's not,
it's probably not worth it. Even the trouble of signing up for
something really, just to pay 99 cents. So once you make it free
and open, and hey man If you like it, and you really like it,
then you know then kick something back one way or the
other. If you don't like it, and you're listening to it, what's
wrong with you? I mean, it's your it's a good point. Yeah, I
don't want you to risk anything. If you don't like it, then fine,
then that's okay. If you'd like it a little bit, you're on the
fence. Fine. That's, that's the value to you, Da Man, if the
world worked like that, ah, well, so
many people's value looks different, too. Because when not
just the financial part, but you take a guy like Daniel J. Lewis,
he's he's not contributing code. And he's not him he made done
over here. He hasn't yet. But you know, the, the way he's
giving us his value is by his experience, and shit and showing
up on the GitHub repos and saying, Hey, guys, I think this
is something y'all need to y'all need to consider. And that is
every bit as valuable
as a donation. Incredibly, yes. Well, that's what that's why I
say the triple T's time, talent, treasure, just spending your
time looking at it and say, Hey, one pixels off, that fucking
matters. Yeah. Does that matter matters that in a corporation,
there's a $60,000, a year person to do QA and find that, yeah,
find the pixel. So that matters definitely very valid, that
I didn't want to derail, I just want to make sure that it felt
important to talk about that. But that is a perfect segue,
though, into the chick, moving the puck
to sell out, sell out. Well, they're all going to come back,
eventually, you watch, they're all going to come back.
I'm afraid that's going to happen in this case, too. So if
you play Let me set this up. The name of the podcast is just
break up. And the I went back and listened to the show the
episode that they did the initial announcement that
they're moving to Spotify. And the announcement took like, 20
minutes. To me, it was a little long announcement. And that so
what Spotify? Let me say this, it's clear from listening to
this clip, if you just listen and read between the lines, it's
clear. You can what you're hearing is you're hearing the
meeting that took place between Spotify and and the podcaster.
And you're hearing what, what Spotify told them to emphasize
to their audience.
Oh, really?
I think so. As you listen to these clips, and tell me if you
think the same thing, okay, what what I hear in these clips, is
Spotify sending a message to their audience, and to other
podcasters Oh, okay, PLAY CLIP one. And now just break up takes
up easily, you know, without any growth right now, let's just
break up takes up, you know, 70% of my workload, and to be paid
less than part time, for my less, you know, my more than
part time work is, is it's hard on me. But you know, Spencer and
Sam and I, we really believe in the podcast. So we did this for
two years, because we wanted to get to a place where someone
like Spotify would offer us such an amazing partnership.
Okay, wow. I just had like a trauma flashback. Okay. To
people, people forget that in 2006, I started a podcast
network, in aggregate raised $65 million. To build it out over
one, I think the company finally disbanded about after 10 years.
And I was out before then, and all the pitfalls, all the things
that Spotify is gonna go through, I can predict. But
what's interesting about this particular clip, is when we did
it, and clearly, I was wrong thinking it would work. And I
have a lot of reasons that prove it's wrong and may never work.
Although in this case, you know, they have one extra advantages.
They're trying to lock these people in and not make them
public at all. We had the quit your day job. It's like come on
over to pod show or pod show. Thank you. We'll help you quit
your day job. And then all you'll have to do is podcasting.
And we definitely helped a lot of people quit their day job.
But did it everybody quit their day job? No, I mean, all the I
mean, we can get all the problems that that'll bring with
it. Maybe not totally appropriate for the show, but
that's exactly the message Spotify is sending. And so I
find that interesting. At least that's what I'm hearing. What
did you hear?
Yeah, well, that's exactly what I heard what I heard was the
meeting and the meeting is, is that the this spot a HUD five,
add to clipboard? And they said, Okay, look, what we want you to
do is emphasize in your announcement that you're going
to get a living wage. Fine. All right, right. Right. Right.
You're, you're finally going to get paid for your work. And I
think that is a message not to the listeners, but to other
podcasters.
Oh, totally. It is. It's always that's always what it is. Yes,
of course.
Yeah, play play clip, too. I'll reiterate what Sam said, which
is that we have 100% creative control, the show is still free.
Because we have to stress this, because I didn't even know this
because in one of our meetings, one of our team, Spotify team
members was like, Yeah, Spotify does such a good job pushing the
premium membership have their app that like everybody didn't,
doesn't realize that there The app is free. And I was like
under that misunderstanding, too. Even when we started
conversations with Spotify, I was like, Oh, shit, like, do
people have to get a Spotify Premium Account? No, Spotify app
is 100%. Free, you can download it today, you don't need a
credit card. And so our show will stay the same. You'll just
need to download a new app to listen to it if you don't
already use Spotify.
By now while stocks last.
And I want to say this upfront. I have no but this is not
criticism. I mean, like this is if this was the right move for
them. That's great. And I have no problem with with Spotify
off. And this is not me trying to criticize any any players in
this whole game is just I think it's good to see the clarity
behind what was happening, because what I heard in that
clip was okay, emphasize when you have your announcement, did
you hear retaining creative control?
Oh, yeah. And which, which is really great. Go ahead, I'll
tell you what's going to happen. Go ahead.
And also say at least, maybe, I don't know, seven or eight times
that is going to be for free
app is free, no change you. Right. And here's what's cool
about it, when you have total creative control. And it's free,
that means Spotify is going to put ads in front of your
podcast, which is fine. They will also do midroll podcast. If
anyone tells you that's not true, they're doing it. I know
that I know that for sure. But the problem is that when you
have creative control, the advertisers may not be that
interested because of your content. And that's when you're
going it's I was listening to who's who's on the gimlet stuff.
What are some of the gimlet shows?
Lord? I don't know. I'm not up on them. Yeah, there were some
did they get bought by Spotify?
Yeah, there was. Was? Yeah, so gimlet, I guess gimlet also does
the Michelle Obama podcast. And I don't know if it was let me
just see which one of the shows that was the current shows. It
may have been startup. But it could have been maybe reply all.
It was some thread, maybe there's a Reddit thread. It's
like, Hey, man, you got some weird advertisers on your, on
your show, like some something that kind of goes against your
whole, the whole vibe of the show? And the answer was, yeah,
we stopped doing the host reads because Spotify has the, you
know, has the right to put them in there. But since we can't
choose our sponsors, we won't read the host reads. I mean,
it's friction. Advertising is censorship. Believe me, that's
just a shortcut to the whole story. Yeah, you will, you know,
if you're completely free, and you and your F bombing or what
like she just did, some sponsors will not appreciate that. And
you will not get the ads and then eventually, the ad
departments gonna say Hey, how come? We can't sell any ad and
it's a never ending loop. It's how it goes. It's advertising is
censorship. Ultimately.
That's not you. That's not you guessing at this. That's not
that's me knowing
that's me. No, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, hell, yeah. You BMW. You
think they want to be on something with F bombs? No, they
don't. They just don't know. And they check it and then you know,
they know the DNA of where things are going. But that
doesn't matter. I'm happy. Just maybe totally clean podcast. I
don't know. It could be perfect for them. It's not okay.
No, not not at all. Interesting. It's not it's not a bad product.
I mean, I listened to a couple of shows to get some clips and
it's a great podcast. I like it a lot. I hate to see it go. The
Yeah, LET'S PLAY CLIP three and then I'll tell you what I hear
in this. You know, another thing I forgot to say in my little
tangent about like, okay, stop, stop, stop. Stop it. I play that
again. And she says it right up front. She said another thing I
forgot to say, you know, another thing I forgot to say in my
little tangent about like,
Kentia. What's that word? Kentia?
tangent. Tangent.
Okay, oops, I forgot it's on my list. I forgot it was part of
the talking points of the Deal Memo. Oh, darn.
You know, another thing I forgot to say in my little tangent
about like paying people who offer a free creative service is
that I won't like, name names here. But when we were talking
with one of our Spotify team members, something that they
brought up was that a partnership with Spotify allowed
a major, another major podcast, one way bigger than ours to
finally be able to provide health insurance for their
hosts. And I thought that that was such like a beautiful,
tangible, you know? Sure. It, it might be, it might like Sam
said, there might be a small inconvenience of changing where
you listen to this app. But it's still going to be free. And now
your favorite host can like go to the doctor.
Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. What do you hear there, Dave?
Well, I heard when you talk about on the show, to call it a
partnership, number one, don't call it an acquisition. And also
emphasize that this is a this is a way for you to like meet your
basic human needs.
As a man, well, that is that I have to say, it's one step
better than quit your day job. It's like and get good health
care. I mean, if I only thought of that, back in the in the pod
show days, it might have worked.
It just seemed like when I was listening to that announcement,
I thought, this is just, I think what you're hearing and again,
that's fine. There's no criticism here. It's all good.
But what I'm hearing is just, this is, okay, here's how it
struck me. So Spotify comes in with their Joe Rogan deal and
does. Boom, 100 100 million, or whatever the package was, you
know, and that's them planting their flag and saying, We're
here, baby, we're going to, we've got some big money to play
with and get ready. And they let every other podcaster know that
you're on your on your on the block like we can, we may come
to you and want to buy you.
It's like the early days of Twitter when you could be on the
Friends of Twitter list.
Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a good analogy. So like,
they're, they set the stage with that note with that one. And now
they're gonna do now they're gonna start picking off shows.
And each show is going to do probably a read like this, where
they basically go over these talking points. Sure,
sure. Make sure everybody but looking at Oh, God, if I am, I
hate myself. There's so many names that have the word cast.
So cast coverage.com When I look at CAST coverage.com When I use
a pod friends, pod friender I mean, give me a break. Martin,
you are you're cracking me the EFF up with that. I'm swiping
left, I'm swiping right. Like I love podcasts. I want to date
them. The stuff that I find. It's like, that's the World Man.
That's the universe. I just don't I mean, Spotify doesn't
realize it yet. And I don't know exactly. It may be I'm sure
there's very capable people in there. But you know, I said this
on Joe Rogan's show. I'm so happy for you. I gotta make sure
that we can have our the next five Joe Rogan's who he also
said they're there already. Make sure they got a place. Yeah. And
when it doesn't work out for the for the lucky few because I
won't I mean, there's, there's a cut, there's going to be cuts.
It's just how it goes. That's how it goes in mainstream media.
I've been fired from media jobs as our goes on may not even be
your fault. Maybe you got the wrong time. So whatever it is,
you'll all be welcome back. And maybe when you come back, we'll
have a way for you to make money too. If you're good. And if
you're not even if you're good. If you have an audience if you
can if you can build an audience around you, then yeah, I think
so.
And I'm, I'm afraid this show in particular make a comeback. And
just because, like you can, you can kind of hear it if you if
you go to go to clip five,
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random strangers giving them relationship advice.
So that that tells me you know, they're doing the they're doing
the play, you know, please download the app. Yeah. They're
keeping the Patreon. I was
gonna say they get to keep the Patreon. That's okay, then that
deal was a lot smaller than we think it is.
Yeah, and I don't know that. You know, at some point, I gave them
health care. That's what it is. Patreon, here some health care.
That sounds a pretty good deal. Yeah,
sure. Hey, healthcare is real money.
Yeah. But I don't know, I just think that that a lot of these
shows are going to make the jump in their audience is not.
Because here's the harsh reality. As good as your show
is, user behavior is very hard to overcome. And you are not
going to get a very large percentage of your audience to
flip out of overcast or Apple podcast or hyper capture over to
Spotify. Listen to your show, then flip back to listen to the
rest of their stuff. It's just not going to happen.
Well, even. I mean, I think we have discussed it with so many
people. I think we brought it up here in regard to Michelle
Obama's podcast. So they had problems reading, they're
reaching their quotas, clearly for their ads for their launch
partner partners. And, and then it was like, Oh, we're going to
is so great. We're gonna put it on all platforms, which
basically means Oh, we better unexcused, suffi that so that we
can get the ads, the ad plays that we promised. The the, the
user base of Spotify is a user base that listens to music. And
there are people in this world who are in the car and listen to
music, who are walking, listen to music or jogging, working
out, listen to music, and there are people who listen to
podcasts. And there are people listen to podcasts, much more
than music and people listen to music much more than podcast.
The people on spot who are Spotify users are going to in
general, be music listeners who may occasionally want to listen
to a podcast. So they are Spotify is buying audience. And
yes, I think you will get a large majority of your Joe Rogan
audience to go to Spotify. But they're not gonna listen to
Michelle Obama, I think it's going to be a different audience
could be wrong. So so they have to transition their own
audience. That's even harder have a job. You've got an
audience that is dialed into this. They know their playlists
to share and playlists. They know exactly what what they want
the music they want to listen to the new songs where to find
them. And now podcasts Okay, fine. Yeah, they're probably
using a different app for podcasts. Now, I know a lot of
people who listen to my own podcast and Spotify or did it's
just no, that's, that's a hard Well, that's the other thing.
You know, be careful what you sign. That's hard for Spotify to
do. That's very hard for them to do. It's just it's a tough job.
And you can hear it in the read it's just so much focus on
please just download the app is great. Please download the app,
please download the app. Like so the the other thing that kind of
surrounds this. Oh, wait, play. I saw one.
I saw one. You go. Like do you want serious entertainment
because we can turn on Netflix.
Okay
is the so they talked a lot about this. In in the rate in
the raid I don't think I have a clip of it. But he kept saying
that they were going to be exclusive to Spotify. And then
we're going to take them in. They said we're going to be
exclusive and our back catalogue. Right What I want to
do what I want to know is current currently they're listed
in podcast index. When they say back catalogue, does that mean
that everyone else has to D list their previous episodes?
I believe so. So
do we legally have to take it off the index?
No, no, no, no they're going to do is that that that will stay
the same but I believe they will remove their mp3 files. I think
that's what Joe Rogan is going to do come December too.
So that that gives me that gives that's a perfect idea for an
app, the archive the shows that are about to disappear. It's a
All right. Uh huh. And it can't somebody make an app and with
just like, oh, this shows about to go away, boom, grab, grab 125
mp3 is all set? I mean, I don't know. Well, I guess we'll stay
on the index for average break. I guess
that's it. Yeah, it'll break. It's very traditional Hollywood
type deal. It's, it's analogous to the Rogen deal. That's the
template, it's just a licensing deal, which means they can
decide not to put your episode up, they will pay you. But it
won't go out if the if whatever happens. Okay, let me tell you
where we're headed with this. I'm gonna use a different
analogy. The modern media model has become subscription and
streaming. And what we see is that families at home now have
since she mentioned it, Netflix, Hulu, Apple, TV, Amazon, there's
a couple more cable. And at the end of the month, when you look
at your aggregate, one 150 $150 bill for all of these services
together, you go to yourself and say, self, I am watching one
show on Hulu. I'm watching three shows on Netflix, I'm paying for
all this other stuff. And look at the bill. And the postmodern
model, which I think is where podcasting where we can take
podcasting is I want to transfer value directly to the person who
is giving me this fabulous entertainment. Because Spotify
is going in that direction, and they're all trying to create
their little fiefdoms. And the difference is the production
cost of a good podcast is not like that of a good Netflix or
Amazon show. So there's going to be so much beauty outside of
these individual silos of streaming subscription. I think
they're going to lose, they I don't think this is a war, they
can win. They just haven't done the numbers yet. Granted, we
don't have the value system flowing within podcasting yet,
but that's not far off. Yeah. Does that make any sense?
Yeah, I think so. I think it makes perfect sense. Because
whatever the this the cable cutter that could the wire
cutter, your cutter. Yeah, of course. Yeah. cord cutters. The
cord cutter movement always had at its core as its core promise
as NLL say this, as did cloud computing always had, as its
core of common that you were going to, you're going to,
you're going to save money because you're going to, you're
going to only pay for what you use, you're not going to have to
pay for all this for a bunch of channels that you never want.
And here
we are. And it's exactly what we have. Exactly. If you're into
podcasting, you're getting out yes, you don't have to pay, the
app is free. I want to repeat it again, because we had the
meeting, the app is free. However, you're gonna get ads.
And I find ads. I grew up in advertising. I've built huge
company in advertising. I started a lot of internet
advertising, even some of the models. Gosh, do I enjoy not
having to do it? And do I enjoy? This is a podcast that I don't
have to listen to it. And I'm happy that I'm so willing to
part with some of my money for it. It's just Yeah, at the end
of the month, I want to be paying $30 For just the things I
listened to. That's what I want to do.
Absolutely. And there's no, there's no way to do that within
this subscription model. I mean, there's just not a way to do
that. But I mean, because what, what always happens with a
subscription model is you sign up, you get to this, you get to
this threshold where you're like, Okay, I am, I'm doing
this, fill in the blank activity a lot, carwash, whatever, you
know, in your you're like, Okay, or you're using an apple, okay,
okay, I'll do that. I'll do the $10 month subscription. And then
you never in your your usage plummets, and then like a month
in and then like three months later, you're like, I'm still
paying for
this and then it becomes an actual annoyance. It does and
then you
have to go get out of it.
Exactly. Exactly. You know, I got a note from a producer
today. I think we're going to we probably won't discuss it on no
agenda for a whole bunch of reasons. He's in India, and he
was trying to make a donation through PayPal and PayPal said
we don't allow this to this country. peered in Hoonah and
Devorah back went to go look. And apparently this is some Visa
has Visa MasterCard, they're the ultimate guys behind all the all
the payment systems. They are doing some of their some like
digital payment between India and the US and they're ramping
that up and rolling it out. And so they just decide, okay, we're
going to cut off Pay Pal use this or don't. Holy crap. Yeah,
I mean, and that's going to affect Patreon. It's going to
affect all kinds of stuff all kinds of people know.
Yeah, that's, that's messed up in that. Yeah, that's just you,
if you
look, so the bottom line, bottom line value for value is the
model we're thinking of?
Yeah, definitely. Getting out of that chain. Yeah. The new ISO
three.
Okay, I can already see by the title, it's gonna be funny. I
don't know, sales or whatever. That's the model. That's how
they're gonna make money sales or whatever.
Yeah. Sales or whatever. Whatever. Yeah, that I just
think, you know, like I say, I have nothing I have nothing
against any, any podcasts doing what they need to do. And taking
the money and run but, you know, I mean, I think they're just
gonna it's gonna be they're gonna have to have a wake up
call. It's, they're gonna have a wake up call at some point when
the audience just drops off. Well, it means
when they are ready to just break up with Spotify. We did
not we I did. Yeah, I did. We will. We will welcome them with
open arms. Because we'll leave it on the index. Of course we
will. They can pick it right up. No problem. We'll be here for
you. Come on.
We're never gone. Never. What else? We I got so much stuff
written down. But
yeah, what's on your paper? Man?
What else? You like two hours?
Give me the I'm sure you got some stuff that's at the top of
the pile we can do before we get out of here.
Yeah, well, the on the namespace front. Let's let's just say
this. As the end, this is a good follow up to what we just talked
about. The
I think the way what people need to understand is that the these
the the big players in this binder, podcast industry, the
Google, the apple, the Spotify, those guys, they they are not
trying to preserve independent podcasting. No, at best, what
they're trying, what they're doing is they're using it as
sort of a triple A for Major League Baseball. They're they're
looking out there and see and who they want to bring up to the
major leagues. They don't care in this and we're using the
reasons related the namespace is because there's this feeling
within that, that I pick up on a lot. There's this feeling within
players in the industry that in the amongst podcast hosts and
that kind of thing, that we that we need everybody at the table
like this, the namespace, and the specs won't work because
Apple and Google and Spotify not everybody is represented. But
the problem is they don't those guys don't care.
They don't care. That's they don't care about you at all at
all at all. They're nice guys. I know the apple guys. They're
nice guy. They actually yes, human beings. Of course, they
care they've been and they've they've bent over backwards for
me. They've promoted they've been so kind, but they know that
Apple is not them. And Apple is a corporation, the corporation
has a mission, it's set by whoever, often driven by the
shareholders. And they know they know and I don't take it
personally. And you know, they're hiring people they're
going to be doing exclusive shows is obvious.
And they get asked to do it that way. And their core
britches and they're going to do you know, payments and stuff.
I'm sure they have it all all figured out that if they've got,
if anyone should should be considering a closed system,
it's apple that I don't think that's had a huge success with
Apple TV. Although it was interesting, the only I wanted
to watch trump card the documentary which is Nash
D'souza it's obviously very pro Trump. Now everyone else is
stupid, but I got to watch everything so it was only
available on Apple TV there was not available on Netflix not
available on on Amazon. That's strange. That's because politics
man that comes into play but good on the good on Apple for
having that available. But you know, I don't know if it's been
such a huge I mean their idea The biggest idea they've had for
iTunes and and for their music store and their app store has
been. What is it to Apple one or whatever their 24 hour day radio
station? But yeah, okay.
Yeah. All right, you see it with that, you need to have a Apple,
Apple TV became Apple TV plus news, Apple news became Apple
news Plus subscription. I mean, it just makes sense that Apple
podcasts are going to at some point become Apple podcasts plus
course. Exactly. It's gonna plus you're right, put a plus on,
they're gonna stick a pay their sticker price on it, and there's
going to be exclusive shows that you can't get anywhere else.
Yeah. Because they have to that, that Spotify, Apple and Google
are locked in a three way battle for X for exclusivity in the
podcasting space. And they, they just don't, they can care less
about a podcast namespace that gives that gives Captivate some
extra tags they can use like that. That's just like an
annoyance, then why do they why would they even care about that?
Again, it is important to everybody else,
we will take our 40% of the market and will grow. Yeah. And
the talent is out there. The talent is ready, willing and
able. And the only thing that being being lured with is
sparkly things. That is a sparkly thing. So we have work
to do we have a namespace to implement. And there's no that's
all part of preserving podcasting as a platform for
free speech. We don't want anything cut off somewhere that
we don't have control over it. And phase two, I think we're
gonna have a great time figuring out how to pump volume value
through this ecosystem, hosting apps, index podcasters.
listeners. That's a very powerful combination. And I'll
say it again, you're gonna see people coming back to us in the
future. Yeah, it's just gonna be it's gonna be a hell of a lot
more fun. And we smell better over here. Good smell,
healthcare, the healthcare is not new
healthcare sucks. But man, do we smell good.
That one thing that people can do right now, for value is, is
make contact with other hosting platforms, and make sure that
they are aware of the of the locking of the transfer lock
tags, specifically, but the namespace more generally,
because the the transfer locking thing I think will drive
adoption a lot. And I think other people need to know about
that. So if you have connections with Captivate transistor, you
know, fireside all the other, all the other guys. Just just
make content and make sure a lot of more I'm sure they already
know because of James Cridland is like, singing this thing from
the rooftops.
And if anybody knows anybody over anchor, let's just make
sure that anchor Yeah, yeah, hey, man, just implement that.
Because, you know, it's obvious because of their, their size.
You know, they're an obvious target to be abused for this. So
we've made it easy for you.
Yeah, I like the way that that I like putting it that way.
Because I think that they don't I don't think that anchor wants
death. Let me clearly they definitely don't want that. They
don't want that press. Now people are abusing their
platform is what has happened. We're helping them out. But
yeah, so this is a solution to their problem.
All right. So we'll focus on that. Maybe, maybe James will
write about it that always seems to help. Yeah, I think that'd be
great. That'd be great. Yeah.
And and and also get app to what we need is more. One thing we
need in the podcast, index dot social is more native app
developers. So if you have a contact with like, podcast
addict, I think Tom said he was gonna make contact
with static was already they've already put the index is a
search option now I think.
Yeah. And so did antenna pod, right. Both did yeah.
That's kind of the the first toe in the water. I like that.
Yeah. And it's a great way to do it too. Because all you're doing
is you're saying, Okay, well, if the backup search in case apples
down, you got this one.
Yeah. Or if you don't like the results, maybe you'll get
something different from us.
Yeah, exactly. You man. You get it in a different order or
whatever, you know,
and if you don't like the search results, and you you as your
app, jump on the server, the mastodon server, tell us what
you'd like to see we can make better for you. No blind box,
and the mastodon is like a freaking hive mind, man. It's
true. ACLs like I said the other day, I'm like, I need some code
for such and such, because I'm busy if somebody could give me
like a function, and I like for in like 30 minutes.
Yeah, that was the timing of the aggregator timing code. I think
it was. Yeah, I was like, I was like, I know what I want. There
was a mathematical thing. And oh, my hollow tooth here on
Tuesday.
Just like, Yeah, but yeah, we're done. We're done with that. But
it's a beautiful place. And they just read each other's minds all
the time.
To to wrap it up podcast index.org. If you've never heard
of us, or this is brand new to you. And from there, you'll see
a little menu you can join as a developer also, if you are just
interested in contributing to the conversation you and you
don't have to be a developer, you can be a former VJ can be
anything. If you're interested in podcasting, moving things
forward. Podcast, index dot social is a great place to speak
up and let us know what we can do. And on that note, is there
anything I can do for you, Dave?
You can play us oh two.
I'm like do you need servers? Do you need massages? No ISO to it
is
all we do is talk about me.
Wow, maybe they should stay on Spotify.
We're I'm good, man. I'm good.
I'm feeling good. Alright, brother. Hey, have yourself a
great weekend. Dave. Yeah, you do, man. Well, of course we'll
see each other on. I'm sure we'll see each other at the
index over the weekend. Yes, sure, everybody. Take it easy.
Bye, Dave.