1 00:00:00,359 --> 00:00:04,889 podcasting 2.0 for August 28 2020, this is episode number 2 00:00:04,889 --> 00:00:14,219 one. We're upgrading podcasting what other software tech podcast 3 00:00:14,219 --> 00:00:20,759 starts like that? It's Adam curry coming to you from Austin, 4 00:00:20,759 --> 00:00:24,719 Texas for the very first episode of podcasting. 2.0. We're going 5 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:30,329 to upgrade podcasting. And with me, podcasting is my friend and 6 00:00:30,329 --> 00:00:32,219 partner Dave Jones. Dave, how you doing? 7 00:00:32,850 --> 00:00:33,810 I'm good, man. What's up? 8 00:00:34,019 --> 00:00:38,489 Great. This is it's we have you know, we've met once in person, 9 00:00:38,489 --> 00:00:44,279 we've spoken on Skype and on phone calls for man. 10 years, I 10 00:00:44,279 --> 00:00:46,229 guess is how long we've been? 11 00:00:47,610 --> 00:00:51,060 Yes. The only time I've met you in person is we spent the night 12 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:51,480 at your house. 13 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:53,400 That's right. You were coming through town, you were on your 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,050 way somewhere else in transit? Yeah. 15 00:00:55,530 --> 00:00:58,830 Yeah, you fed. You fed me and my wife, and it was awesome. 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:00,990 Now, what do I What did I make? 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,350 No, you took us to the restaurant? Oh, there you go. 18 00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:06,750 You did not cook. 19 00:01:07,950 --> 00:01:11,430 These days I might have. We're all southern boys. I'll take you 20 00:01:11,430 --> 00:01:16,470 up on now all of a sudden, we're all for all Southerners. So I 21 00:01:16,470 --> 00:01:19,590 think to explain what this podcast is about? Well, first, 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,490 I'd like to say that it really is intended for the three 23 00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:26,370 stakeholders in podcasting, which is people who make 24 00:01:26,370 --> 00:01:30,420 podcasts. And what that is, is interpretation we can get to 25 00:01:31,020 --> 00:01:34,320 people who listen to podcasts, who also interact, of course, 26 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:38,040 with their favorite podcasters. And for this for the purposes of 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,870 this podcast, the software developers who either have ever 28 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:46,860 thought about making a podcast app about different ways of 29 00:01:47,460 --> 00:01:52,680 presenting podcasts and making them more fun or more features 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,100 or things that just currently can't be done with the 31 00:01:56,340 --> 00:01:59,940 ecosystem. And certainly not because of all the heavy lifting 32 00:01:59,940 --> 00:02:05,430 that comes into play with the actual back end of what a 33 00:02:05,430 --> 00:02:11,310 podcast player or podcast app has to be. And I think it'd be 34 00:02:11,310 --> 00:02:15,240 handiest if, if Dave, if you and I talked a little bit about how 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,640 we met each other what we've been doing for the past 10 36 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:21,690 years. And then we'll talk about a bit of the backstory of how we 37 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:24,990 came to this point and what the heck we're doing. So yeah, when 38 00:02:24,990 --> 00:02:28,710 I wasn't, if I can remember correctly, we were both in a 39 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:33,450 like a beta thing. One of Dave whiners. outliner 40 00:02:34,140 --> 00:02:38,880 projects. Yeah, it was easy to for poets, that it was like a 41 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,920 melee kind of a mailing list. More than more than software 42 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:46,440 originally. And when I first started listening, I started 43 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,840 listening to your podcast, no agenda. I was I started 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:53,940 listening to that and heard that you were using the world 45 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:58,860 outline, which was like a module, so to speak of the OPML 46 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:03,750 editor, which itself was a descendant of was at Frontier, 47 00:03:03,780 --> 00:03:06,690 different radio, user land and frontier, which all gave Dave 48 00:03:06,690 --> 00:03:09,630 whiners lifelong project. Okay. 49 00:03:09,810 --> 00:03:12,450 So that, you know, when when I saw that there was software 50 00:03:12,450 --> 00:03:14,580 backing up the whole world outline. And that's how you were 51 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:18,960 doing your show notes. And all the publishing for the show. I 52 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,110 thought, well, that's really cool. And I don't know anything 53 00:03:22,110 --> 00:03:24,180 about frontier, I don't know, any, you know, how any of this 54 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:28,050 stuff works. So I just dove in, like I typically do, you know, 55 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,510 with two feet and just started hacking on stuff. And I'm not a 56 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:38,610 programmer by profession. I'm a sysadmin. But I've been 57 00:03:38,610 --> 00:03:42,000 programming for, you know, many, many years on the side and just 58 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,150 projects. So I thought, well, I'll just go ahead and, you 59 00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:48,090 know, start hitting this. And of course, you know, making all 60 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:50,520 kinds of mistakes and screwing it up. But I got into the 61 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,990 mailing list. And we were in the Met you because you were in 62 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:58,560 there as well. We're all beta testing this stuff together. And 63 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,330 I think if my memory serves me correctly, I think the way that 64 00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:09,270 it evolved was that you were had some ideas for a bigger project. 65 00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:16,920 And I, myself had been thinking about moving the frontier and 66 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,190 the stuff that frontier was doing and us and world outline 67 00:04:20,190 --> 00:04:23,910 was doing. I've been thinking about moving it to just a LAMP 68 00:04:24,060 --> 00:04:28,920 stack based Linux application. Because what what had been 69 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,870 happening was that the frontier code base that OPML editor was 70 00:04:33,870 --> 00:04:36,900 built on was showing his age, especially on the Windows side. 71 00:04:37,260 --> 00:04:43,320 And back then we were all this stuff was done by by rote 72 00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:48,660 spinning up an EC to Amazon instance, installing Windows on 73 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:53,220 it, and then installing the OPML editor in that and then starting 74 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:56,490 it serve content HTTP only at the time and all that kind of 75 00:04:56,490 --> 00:05:00,000 jazz. So what was happening is, if you had like more than one 76 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,590 encore in your windows AC, two instance, Frontier would like 77 00:05:04,590 --> 00:05:06,420 crash all the time. You know, it's just 78 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:11,490 the technical explanation to it just didn't scale well. 79 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:17,220 No. Like I even go as far as I have. Thank you, Maria. I'm sure 80 00:05:17,220 --> 00:05:21,480 you remember Ted Howard? Sure, he was to you. I remember 81 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:26,550 working a little bit with Ted to try to fix the source. And of 82 00:05:26,550 --> 00:05:28,920 course, the non downloading this, I'm downloading the source 83 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,420 code, the windows source code for frontier and trying to find 84 00:05:33,420 --> 00:05:39,900 a multi CPU bug, which is like, multi threading, which is like 85 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:42,660 the hardest thing to do in the whole world, right? And you fish 86 00:05:42,660 --> 00:05:45,120 I just said, Yeah, screw it, I may screw it. I'm just gonna 87 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,690 take all this stuff, that this that this thing does all the 88 00:05:48,690 --> 00:05:52,920 stuff that I like, and just build another, just build my own 89 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:53,700 application from 90 00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:56,190 it. Now, this is something you said here, which is really 91 00:05:56,190 --> 00:06:00,450 critical. The origins of podcasting have different 92 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,530 different parts to the history, and one is really not discussed 93 00:06:04,530 --> 00:06:09,300 at all. And that a lot of that's my my fault. Dave Weiner, of 94 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:13,860 course, being the creator of RSS and who I work with, when he, I 95 00:06:13,890 --> 00:06:16,680 convinced him to come up with what became the enclosure 96 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:22,680 element. He's my outline guru, and I outlining is what everyone 97 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,410 knows when an outline is even a file folder, it can be an 98 00:06:25,410 --> 00:06:30,450 outline. It really functions well, for my brain, it's the way 99 00:06:30,450 --> 00:06:34,080 I think. And I'd like to fold up nodes and be able to move stuff 100 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,040 around. And it's how I write everything. And a very powerful 101 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,150 feature is the ability in an outline. So let's say you have a 102 00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:44,460 node where you double click on it, it would expand and there's 103 00:06:44,460 --> 00:06:48,930 something underneath it, it had something called the include, 104 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,070 and include node could mean you could do if you double click on 105 00:06:53,070 --> 00:06:58,110 that node, it will issue an HTTP request to that OPML file, which 106 00:06:58,110 --> 00:07:02,280 could reside anywhere else very similar to gopher back in the 107 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:07,740 day, which I'm very intimately familiar with, or obviously just 108 00:07:07,740 --> 00:07:13,440 a hyperlink system, but without lines, and the original iPod 109 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:20,160 or.org index for all podcasts at the time was based on OPML, 110 00:07:20,190 --> 00:07:23,850 which is standard. Another standard day they wind wrote, I 111 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:26,880 didn't know that, that he did the OPML standard. 112 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,270 No, no, I didn't know that I Potter was based on that. Yeah, 113 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:30,960 yeah. 114 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,680 And so what I would do is I'd have country identity by country 115 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,220 of countries up at the top. And then I'd have country managers 116 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:41,100 who just volunteers who were sniffing around who's doing the 117 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:46,890 podcast. And then they could include RSS feeds as an RSS 118 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:49,860 know, type in the outline. I know it's getting technical. But 119 00:07:50,310 --> 00:07:52,650 I know I'm here to try and keep the non technical people 120 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:59,730 thinking. What so you really just had a a huge distributed 121 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:05,910 directory of nodes maintained by volunteers that really just 122 00:08:05,910 --> 00:08:10,020 pointed to RSS feeds. And I could what was very rudimentary 123 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:13,980 and I have zero programming skills is really hacky. But I 124 00:08:13,980 --> 00:08:17,460 could crawl this entire tree and then bring up most recently 125 00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:20,880 updated, and I could see what was happening. And then category 126 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,360 started to form. And this was a beautiful project. And I was 127 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:31,380 hooked on the idea. I love the world outline project. And maybe 128 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:38,040 I'll just go let's, let's keep let's keep going here. So that 129 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:38,400 wasn't me. It 130 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,280 was glad you said that. Because I didn't know the history of I 131 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,700 Potter like, yeah, that was, that was probably what year was 132 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,810 that? Maybe 2000 2003 or four? Yeah. Okay, so yeah. And that 133 00:08:48,810 --> 00:08:51,420 was way, you know, that was way before I started listening to 134 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:51,990 podcast at 135 00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:55,590 the same time, the daily source code was the podcast, which I 136 00:08:55,590 --> 00:08:59,520 made specifically for developers and completely an analogue to 137 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,030 what we're doing here to get them involved in this 138 00:09:03,030 --> 00:09:07,410 conversation. And we need to build something. And those early 139 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,970 software developers were, in fact, building podcast apps, and 140 00:09:11,970 --> 00:09:14,850 they had different names. They also use the iPod or moniker and 141 00:09:14,850 --> 00:09:18,270 then we had iPod or lemon iPod or X for different operating 142 00:09:18,270 --> 00:09:21,840 systems. And there was just a slew of stuff some connected to 143 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,590 mp3 players, others did the iTunes shuffle and others 144 00:09:25,830 --> 00:09:32,190 different concepts, etc. And maybe I should just take I'll 145 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:34,500 just take down the Steve Jobs and we'll come around to this 146 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,700 since I'm already talking about the specific specific thing. So 147 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:39,240 podcast, 148 00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:43,140 you get that whole thing the other thing relates to I mean, 149 00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:45,030 that's directly a Steve Jobs thing. Yes. 150 00:09:45,030 --> 00:09:48,630 And is the is directly related to my meeting with him. So this 151 00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:52,800 was just building and I was doing the daily source code and 152 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,620 I was experimenting a lot with the mood for me. It was really 153 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:59,280 about programming. I was doing stuff with cars walking around 154 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,360 while I was flying. airplanes, all cool stuff, you know, but 155 00:10:03,810 --> 00:10:07,020 certainly in those first hundreds of episodes, it was all 156 00:10:07,020 --> 00:10:09,690 about this feedback loop with the developers. And we learned a 157 00:10:09,690 --> 00:10:13,500 lot of things like, you know, if you subscribe to a new feed, 158 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:16,140 it's probably not a good idea to start auto downloading every 159 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:20,010 single element in the feed, you know, especially back in the day 160 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:23,580 with, you know, basically dial up still. So it's like 161 00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:26,610 the html5 audio tag, when you have 75 on the page, you 162 00:10:26,610 --> 00:10:27,420 probably want to set that 163 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:31,770 to yes, and you have an AWS and they send you a bill. Exactly. 164 00:10:31,770 --> 00:10:36,600 Yeah. Very large bill. So things start to happen. Stuff starts to 165 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,050 heat up. I'm getting calls from I was living in Belgium at the 166 00:10:40,050 --> 00:10:43,920 time, but actually, BBC was one of the first and the BBC was 167 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:49,680 very interested and did pieces on me on BBC, I think was radio 168 00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:53,910 four or five and I but it was just great pieces 169 00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:57,150 on just only on you or on iPod or 170 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,080 podcast. Yeah, podcast. And in general, because the focus was 171 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,500 not really on the directory. But everybody was using this 172 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:09,090 directory, this iPod or directory to pop either populate 173 00:11:09,090 --> 00:11:14,190 their own idea of a directory in their own app, or just to pull 174 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:17,880 data from it in real time or cache it. So it was an important 175 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:23,850 piece. Then 2005 I get a call. It's Eddie Q, who now runs a lot 176 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:29,490 of the entertainment at at Apple and has kind of a cool name, 177 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,140 Eddie Q. EJ, 178 00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:34,680 most Motown producer, 179 00:11:35,790 --> 00:11:39,150 PDQ gonna give you a Cadillac, you record this, and he's kind 180 00:11:39,150 --> 00:11:42,810 of in that business. Still. He says, Hey, Steve would like to 181 00:11:42,810 --> 00:11:47,850 meet with you to do you have time? Like, Yeah, fuck, yeah. 182 00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:52,920 Yes, of course. And it was a d3 conference. I think that was San 183 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,490 Diego. And I said, Okay, well come to d3. And Steve will meet 184 00:11:56,490 --> 00:11:59,550 with you. And so this is kind of it's a big was a big place 185 00:11:59,730 --> 00:12:03,240 exactly where it was, but kind of a venue. And so there's these 186 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,690 dressing rooms, whatever green room type setup, and I go back, 187 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:10,290 and he takes me back and Steve there. And right away, and it's 188 00:12:10,290 --> 00:12:16,590 just the three of us right away, I noticed Steve Jobs is much 189 00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:20,640 thinner at the time. 2005. So I don't know if he was sick or 190 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,750 not. And he had a list, which I'd never heard before. But he 191 00:12:24,750 --> 00:12:28,290 was really personable. And you know, you said, well, actually, 192 00:12:28,290 --> 00:12:31,890 he was he was yelling like guy that fucked up Wi Fi. He was 193 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:33,000 yelling something to Eddie. 194 00:12:33,270 --> 00:12:35,070 I'm like, I may have yelled that this way. 195 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:39,330 And later, I realized, it dawned on me that they were probably 196 00:12:39,330 --> 00:12:42,960 working on the iPhone. And it's now reasonably well known that 197 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,290 Steve Jobs never wanted it to be a cell phone. He wanted it all 198 00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:50,010 to work on Wi Fi. And so something had happened with some 199 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:52,830 of the standards or, you know, to this day, I've never looked 200 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:56,190 into it. But I do recall very vividly being very angry. And I 201 00:12:56,190 --> 00:12:58,770 even thought to myself, bro, you should calm down a bit. It's not 202 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,010 good for your health. But there was other things were just 203 00:13:02,010 --> 00:13:05,070 chatting. And he's like, and all sudden, he said, Oh, how do you 204 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:07,410 record stuff? How do you do this, and I explained what tools 205 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:10,350 I'm using, because he had a big interest in how the Mac was 206 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:11,640 being used to record 207 00:13:12,569 --> 00:13:16,169 in your mind and your total Mac 100% Mac 208 00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:21,360 in fact, it turns out he told me in that meeting that I had been 209 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:25,200 publishing my my mp3 files on my I think it was called the MAC 210 00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:29,910 MAC drive at the time, which now is probably with iCloud. So it 211 00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:33,900 was like you mounted a drive on your desktop share. It's 212 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:38,760 literally drive and you paid for it. And it had limited. It was 213 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,700 limited by storage. No one was really concerned too much with 214 00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:45,450 bandwidth. But I had all these developers testing the shit out 215 00:13:45,450 --> 00:13:49,140 on my feed. And so it was just going crazy. And Steve said in 216 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:52,620 that meeting, he said, Yeah, we saw what was going on. And it 217 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:56,280 was so much bandwidth. But I just said let them go. Just 218 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,090 let's see what he's doing. Now, that's that's not the coolest 219 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,880 story. Isn't that cool? I love that. 220 00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:06,780 I love it too. Because you can't imagine that anything like that 221 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:11,250 would happen today in big tech. Especially that the CEO would 222 00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:13,830 know that one guy's using a lot of bandwidth. I mean, that's 223 00:14:13,830 --> 00:14:17,100 crazy in and of itself, but to say, well, this guy's you know, 224 00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:19,740 he's really hammering our system pretty hard. But he's kind of 225 00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:21,870 doing something interesting. Don't Don't Don't shut that 226 00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:24,120 down. Just let it yeah, let's just see what happens. And it 227 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:24,540 was cool. 228 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:28,950 And I'm not exactly sure who on the inside was looking at it and 229 00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:31,410 brought it up to the higher up or how that went. I'd love to 230 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:35,940 know. There's several people on the podcast team who I'm very 231 00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:38,970 friendly with. And super cool people and you know, they have 232 00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:41,610 their limitations to what they can do with the corporation. 233 00:14:41,610 --> 00:14:42,690 Everybody understands it. 234 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,480 They've been there like had they been there? Is there anybody 235 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,520 that's been there says that this whole time 236 00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:52,380 this I met you? I don't really know from those early years 237 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:57,090 because not long after that with help from jobs who introduced me 238 00:14:57,090 --> 00:15:01,770 to the big venture capitalist venture cap Bro investors. I 239 00:15:01,770 --> 00:15:04,710 started pod show I started the first podcast network 240 00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:07,560 that we had eventually became media, right. Yeah. 241 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,790 And that became me VO and it was a almost a decade long learning 242 00:15:11,790 --> 00:15:15,750 of that. Podcast networks just don't work, which will be a 243 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:20,280 different episode, I'm sure. Yeah, sure. So we're, so we're 244 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,570 chatting away. And yeah, one other thing is, I was using 245 00:15:24,570 --> 00:15:27,720 Audio Hijack Pro to record because you could set up a 246 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,390 little compression chain and stuff like that. So it was great 247 00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:34,110 piece of software at Mac only. And Eddy Cue was still there 248 00:15:34,110 --> 00:15:37,680 when that topic came up. And he says, Yeah, you know, Steve, the 249 00:15:37,710 --> 00:15:42,150 RDA is really bitching about the ability to our OS to be able to 250 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:45,570 record direct sound, and they really want us to block that or 251 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:49,740 put some, and Steve interrupts them goes, fuck it. These guys 252 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:51,600 need it. Hold them off as long as we can. 253 00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:56,010 So you're seeing the sausage made? Like right here? 254 00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:59,460 Yeah, yeah. And it's just like, wow, this is Steve Jobs. He's on 255 00:15:59,460 --> 00:16:03,990 my side, man. He's on my team. I love this. I love this. He said, 256 00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:11,040 Okay, Adam. I really would like your call and blessing to put it 257 00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:16,500 podcasting into iTunes. And I look at him and I go, Are you 258 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:21,000 fucking kidding me? I'm sorry. Yes. Realizing I'm talking to 259 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,020 Steve Jobs. Yes. And I've sat with a lot of people my most 260 00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:28,920 impressive our, I think was Quincy Jones before this, where 261 00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:32,580 we drank a bottle of his Latour while live on the radio talking 262 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:37,830 about his career. So, you know, I, I've met a lot of people at 263 00:16:37,830 --> 00:16:40,890 jobs is still number one on the impressive list because he was 264 00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:45,660 also he was wooing me, you know, this is what he does. He's 265 00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:50,010 incredibly good at it, and read any history about how he, and I 266 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:53,220 think maybe not even dissimilar to President Trump, you know, 267 00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:55,830 and if you fuck it up, then you're out within seconds. No, 268 00:16:55,830 --> 00:16:58,710 he doesn't care. But he's very good at the ruling part. 269 00:16:59,310 --> 00:17:01,650 It's like you're it's like you're, you know, like wanting 270 00:17:01,650 --> 00:17:05,730 to marry. It's like, you're he's like, the dad wanted to marry 271 00:17:05,730 --> 00:17:08,970 his daughter, you know, like, exactly, not please have podcast 272 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:12,270 now, but he made me feel real good about it. And I then said, 273 00:17:12,270 --> 00:17:17,100 hey, you know what, I'll even give you a copy of the index. So 274 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:19,740 you can get started, we got categories and all that stuff. 275 00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:24,750 Okay. Now, little did I know that Steve Jobs already had 276 00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:27,690 everything set up, he you know, he does not go out on stage 277 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,950 unprepared. However, this is one of the best pieces of acting 278 00:17:31,950 --> 00:17:36,480 I've ever seen from him, that I'm aware of. And this is when 279 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,980 he introduced podcasting in iTunes in 2005, at the d3 280 00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:47,520 conference conference with Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher, just 281 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:48,090 if you were 282 00:17:48,210 --> 00:17:50,190 to eventually get into selling 283 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,590 paid for your stuff, 284 00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:55,230 well, you could, you could try to sell podcasts, but the whole 285 00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:57,630 phenomenon is so great. It's free. And I think what we're 286 00:17:57,630 --> 00:17:59,970 gonna see as an advertising supported model emerge, just 287 00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:03,480 like Free Radio. Here's another Adam curry is one of the guys 288 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,290 that invented podcasting. And he has a podcast called The Daily 289 00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:10,080 source. Let me go ahead and subscribe to that. And we can go 290 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,720 listen to his latest one. Just click on it daily 291 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,190 source code show number 180. something remarkable is 292 00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:17,970 happening here. 293 00:18:18,450 --> 00:18:22,020 Radio is springing free of the regulated gatekeepers who've 294 00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:25,710 managed what you've been here, since radio was invented. It's 295 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:29,580 jumping into the hands of anyone at all with something or nothing 296 00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:30,030 to say. 297 00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:34,260 With $16 million worth of airplay strapped by 298 00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:45,210 next generation radio content in my ears. I like to think testing 299 00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:50,520 is right. It's show number 180. And it's Friday everybody. 300 00:18:53,820 --> 00:18:56,820 I've actually had to restart the show three times my Mac has been 301 00:18:56,820 --> 00:19:02,160 acting up like I think it says something to do with the 302 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,900 filesystem okay. 303 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:10,950 Do you control say dirty stuff? 304 00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:14,610 I mean, we're gonna have an explicit flag on these, like we 305 00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:17,010 do the music so you can know if it's explicit. 306 00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:18,750 So I can find it easier. Yeah. 307 00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:26,850 That's, that's, it's funny to see they to hear that and see, 308 00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:30,990 like, immediately that's, you know, what people jump to is 309 00:19:30,990 --> 00:19:34,350 get, you know, gatekeeping and, okay, how are you going to 310 00:19:34,350 --> 00:19:35,820 control this? How are you going to control that 311 00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:43,350 bingo, bingo. And Apple, their team reached out, because of 312 00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:47,730 course, they saw the end. Just knowing about the whole Mac 313 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:50,700 drive backstory. They were working on this for a long time. 314 00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:53,430 Of course, it wasn't just bless this and we'll put it out and 315 00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:55,830 that was good to go. He knew exactly how he's going to 316 00:19:55,830 --> 00:20:01,080 introduce it. And the team consulted with me If, throughout 317 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,470 the next six months or so, they they added they did patent their 318 00:20:07,470 --> 00:20:14,730 changes to the basically the RSS namespace. So that's, that's 319 00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:19,320 patented, yet still Oh, they they patent so the iTunes 320 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:23,190 namespace that I don't know if I'm saying the right thing that 321 00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:26,610 the tags that are specific to iTunes, yeah, that's it then 322 00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:29,070 they put Dave and I in the patent, you know, it's like 323 00:20:29,070 --> 00:20:36,090 here's the history, etc. And I'm happy because I feel that iTunes 324 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:41,910 Apple has been a very good steward of podcasting. They've 325 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,460 they've allowed access to their, to their directory to their 326 00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:53,640 index, they have tried very hard to just give a clean experience, 327 00:20:53,640 --> 00:21:00,690 they have shown no desire to jump into an advertising model, 328 00:21:00,690 --> 00:21:02,910 which is really not their business anyway, they just want 329 00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:07,050 to make great experiences for people who use their products. 330 00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:13,440 The thing that did disappoint after the release came out and 331 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,190 we and we kind of looked at what was the what was their podcast, 332 00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:20,130 their pod catcher was their podcast app doing what it looked 333 00:21:20,130 --> 00:21:25,290 like, is, it was pretty much all very safe. That was being 334 00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:31,380 featured in PR mainly with big props to Tony Khan WGBH public 335 00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:36,540 radio in Boston, who spearheaded getting NPR into the podcast 336 00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:39,810 business from right from the get go. And I'm very happy because 337 00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:44,250 it legitimized podcast as well, podcasting. But none of the 338 00:21:44,250 --> 00:21:47,070 other stuff really made it to the top. And that was a source 339 00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:52,110 of frustration. And then, of course, when you get popularity 340 00:21:52,110 --> 00:21:56,280 lists, you know, what is it based on who was at helping? You 341 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,290 know, this is the same conversation, I'm sure they're 342 00:21:58,290 --> 00:22:01,890 having always been going on about featured apps in the App 343 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:06,570 Store. So you know, they, but they they were at least building 344 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:12,240 on their index, then I always kept our copy. And throughout 345 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:18,720 the years, I think the the entire database. Well, when when 346 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,370 we're ready to really open it up, we'll have 100, and you've 347 00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:27,990 been looking at a day what but like 1.7 1.8x and 1.8 podcasts 348 00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:31,920 of which an X percentage is active? Yeah, there's 349 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,970 like, let's see, we are looking at I've got in front of me, it's 350 00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:43,020 about it currently stands at about 1.0 8 million podcasts. 351 00:22:43,050 --> 00:22:46,650 And we like if you go back and just look at what has up which 352 00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:52,170 podcasts have updated in the last 90 days is a good round 353 00:22:52,170 --> 00:23:00,210 number to look at. There's about 46, roughly 50,000 podcasts that 354 00:23:00,210 --> 00:23:05,070 have updated in a 90 day period. So, you know, it's it's not like 355 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:09,510 the number of we don't know yet just from looking at at the 356 00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:14,340 stats, like how many of these podcasts come and go like, like, 357 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,850 you may have one that's dormant for for a while and not publish 358 00:23:17,850 --> 00:23:20,490 it yet. Right? Yeah, we don't know. But the ones that are that 359 00:23:20,490 --> 00:23:24,150 seem to be actively publishing look to be, at least from what 360 00:23:24,150 --> 00:23:27,600 we have so far about 50,000 Roughly, I would say. 361 00:23:27,930 --> 00:23:32,520 Now, let's pause this here. And let's go back to when we first 362 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:38,700 met. And what I had seen what I had learned with the OPML with 363 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:45,600 the the iPod or directory is that you could separate the and 364 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,310 I have no design skills zero. And I mean, I can't even my 365 00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:55,470 handwriting is barely even legible. It's horrible. I'm a 366 00:23:55,470 --> 00:23:57,840 great reader. But writing is I can type and that's great, but 367 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:03,240 not any other way. I, I really enjoyed the separation of the 368 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,830 content creation and management and editing, and just saving and 369 00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:11,130 then clicking over to the HTML version, which just as long as 370 00:24:11,130 --> 00:24:14,040 it was clean, as long as it worked and give me some 371 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,380 flexibility in my outline. So I can use a particular type of 372 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:25,650 node that becomes a menu bar. You know, different things I can 373 00:24:25,650 --> 00:24:30,510 fold down, tuck away. And so what 374 00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:34,530 Yes, yeah, I wasn't an outline guy. When we when when I first 375 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:37,080 got involved with the OPML editor and all that stuff y'all 376 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,350 were doing, because I mean, like I just never really been in that 377 00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:45,420 world. And like going into that. It kind of took I mean, it took 378 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:49,230 a few months to figure out like to make it feel natural. Now I 379 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:53,010 just think that way, but outlining and I guess. 380 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,950 Isn't there an analogy to coding within dense? 381 00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:03,780 Yeah, there There really is I'm not, you know, I know, Dave 382 00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:06,690 Winer hit me, he actually coded in the OPML 383 00:25:07,650 --> 00:25:09,690 form. That was his whole his whole vision. 384 00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:13,830 And I've never been able to do that. And I can't get, I can't 385 00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:17,520 get my brain to think that way. But we, but as far as like 386 00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:23,880 dumping ideas on the page, it's great. And so like I took when 387 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,750 you first contacted me is like, handsome, you're like, hey, you 388 00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:29,430 just email me out of the blue one day and you're like, Hey, 389 00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:31,830 you want to do a project. And I've got some ideas. 390 00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:35,250 And this is the core of our 10 year relationship is, Hey, you 391 00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:39,090 want to do a project? Might they might become something after all 392 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:40,350 podcasting works. 393 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:45,720 Just throw as much crap at the wall as you can, like, Okay, so 394 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,400 at least at least once every six months, yeah, I get an email 395 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,710 from you, that says, Hey, call me I've got a great idea. It's 396 00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:59,070 like, we've done, we've abandoned so many projects. 397 00:25:59,220 --> 00:26:03,720 Well, this is the beauty, we haven't actually abandoned any 398 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,860 of them. What 399 00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:06,870 what what form they were aborted. 400 00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:16,410 What formed was a, a system. That is, to be honest, is really 401 00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:22,650 100%. custom tailored to my needs for production of the no 402 00:26:22,650 --> 00:26:25,980 agenda show. And for other important pieces of my life, 403 00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:32,040 that includes a very important piece is an RSS aggregator, that 404 00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:34,620 you're talking about the freedom controller, yeah, we just talked 405 00:26:34,620 --> 00:26:37,440 about all the different bits that that we put together, 406 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:40,770 because while I was happy playing around with, with the 407 00:26:40,770 --> 00:26:44,820 outliner capabilities that you put together for me, which was 408 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:50,250 enabling me to not only maintain my, my show notes and stories 409 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:52,620 that I need to talk about in each episode, but you know, one 410 00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:55,860 click of the button pretty much turns it into a web page. And 411 00:26:55,860 --> 00:26:58,710 the same for the RSS feed. And it's all it's a beautifully 412 00:26:58,710 --> 00:27:02,070 connected system. It's a great workflow. But you were really 413 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:06,870 building an entire platform. And I would say, really built around 414 00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:09,900 the RSS aggregator, and I just want to, I want to, I want 415 00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:12,870 people to understand your expertise in this particular 416 00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:16,650 field, because it's fucking voodoo, when it comes to RSS 417 00:27:16,650 --> 00:27:20,670 feeds, and how they're how correct they are, and just to 418 00:27:20,670 --> 00:27:24,630 get something working, you know, your 10 years has been well 419 00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:25,230 spent. 420 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,740 Yeah, I mean, that you're being kind on on the on the voodoo 421 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:32,880 stuff. But I mean, like, what it's basically what we, what I 422 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,000 had started building before you ever even contacted me started 423 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,020 as a as a clone of the OPML editor and what it was doing, 424 00:27:40,140 --> 00:27:44,220 but with one thing that I had always wanted, and that was the 425 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:49,830 ability to save an article that you anywhere on the internet, 426 00:27:50,010 --> 00:27:52,500 like a readability type thing and just scrape the article 427 00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:56,730 content and save it in a database. Because if you know me 428 00:27:56,730 --> 00:27:59,580 for very long, you will know that I'm always like, at least 429 00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:02,130 once in every conversation, I'm like, Hey, I read this article 430 00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:06,210 the other day, and I cannot for the life of me remember where it 431 00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:09,750 is where I read it or anything like that. So I wanted to 432 00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:14,070 basically be constantly creating a paper trail as I went. So in 433 00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:18,000 order to do that, cobbling together all this readability 434 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,250 stuff into this end of this app X but 435 00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:23,520 just explain readability for people who who don't know, that 436 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:23,880 is, 437 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:28,200 like Instapaper, or the readability product, where it 438 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,070 basically just scrapes the just the text out and renders it in 439 00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:35,130 an in a nice, clean format. Or like, 440 00:28:35,460 --> 00:28:38,220 Apple's they have a read review even. 441 00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:44,010 Exactly, yeah, exactly that. So basically built a microblog 442 00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:48,810 platform, an RSS aggregator and a readability tool into one 443 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:52,350 single product. So you just log into it, and you know, and you 444 00:28:52,350 --> 00:28:55,290 go, you got an account, all your stuff, searchable, all that kind 445 00:28:55,290 --> 00:28:59,370 of jazz. And then, so that's, that's kind of where we started. 446 00:28:59,580 --> 00:29:02,190 And so I was like, oh, yeah, I want to do this, this project 447 00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:05,610 with you. Because originally you were thinking like, something 448 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,670 like, different your thing, almost like a social network, 449 00:29:08,670 --> 00:29:11,400 social network. Yeah, exactly. You were like, Hey, can we build 450 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,090 a social network based on OPML feeds and that kind of thing? 451 00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:17,820 Sounds like we have, I've actually got this other cool 452 00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:21,570 thing. So I set you up an account on my server, and you're 453 00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:25,440 like, hey, this could be a cool show notes thing. And so because 454 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,050 you're you're reading, you're reading the, as you're reading 455 00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:32,040 articles, you're click in the RSS feed aggregator screen, 456 00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:35,190 you're just you're clicking to expand them into readability 457 00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:38,370 view, and it's saving them automatically as you go. So as 458 00:29:38,370 --> 00:29:41,970 you're reading articles, it's building an article database, 459 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,270 and then you later go back and export those articles that you 460 00:29:45,270 --> 00:29:49,110 read on show day into an OPML outline, and it just dumps it 461 00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:50,670 all into one big show, no script. 462 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:54,000 And just so everyone understands. It's, by the way 463 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,640 when you're in the information routing business, which is what 464 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,890 I truly am taking information from email Stories, media, 465 00:30:02,910 --> 00:30:07,200 blobs, all kinds of information coming in, I have to organize 466 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,010 it. And I have to be able to build a show out of it, which 467 00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:15,870 lasts three hours. And and so my system is I have bookmarklets. 468 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,940 And I can we call it capitalizing carding, and boom, 469 00:30:20,970 --> 00:30:24,300 it'll it'll create that readable page and put it in the database 470 00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:27,660 in my database so that my system knows about it. And then I'm 471 00:30:27,660 --> 00:30:32,550 done with it. Now, this is also very handy for I have to say for 472 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:39,180 paywalls, yes, 90% of all paywalls. Okay, so it's a great 473 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:42,660 little system, when people send me stuff behind paywalls all the 474 00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:47,370 time. So I'm very happy that this exists. Emails, I just drop 475 00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:51,420 into a certain folder that's connected, didn't connect my 476 00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:54,090 IMAP and put that in the preface, my email preferences, 477 00:30:54,090 --> 00:30:57,030 and they can suck in that whole folder, and also put them into 478 00:30:57,030 --> 00:31:00,630 an outline. So I have all the emails I need, and I can just 479 00:31:00,630 --> 00:31:05,460 shuffle it around. And it truly is a matter of reorganizing, and 480 00:31:05,490 --> 00:31:08,340 putting stuff in little sub nodes, and then I'm done and 481 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:12,030 then start the show. And when after that, just hit HTML, and 482 00:31:12,030 --> 00:31:13,170 there's your page. 483 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:16,380 And when you talk, when you talk about it like that, it sounds 484 00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:19,530 like Man, this is awesome. There is I'm just gonna go install it 485 00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:21,120 right now. And that's where the whole thing. 486 00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:26,280 Yeah, it's really awesome. But you kind of have to have a 487 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,460 little more. I mean, you gotta be you gotta really want it. And 488 00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:34,350 then we create these dynamite ideas. And we've done I think, 489 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:39,180 mainly, my problem is I'm like, I don't want it to suck. I don't 490 00:31:39,180 --> 00:31:42,540 want to be advertising, anything that that I'm not interested in, 491 00:31:42,540 --> 00:31:48,240 and can it be decentralized? And we, you know, I'm a fan of IPFS. 492 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,450 And, you know, there's all kinds of integrated so many things 493 00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:56,970 over the years. And just, I just want to say about Dave. Yeah, 494 00:31:56,970 --> 00:32:00,600 he's, he's like, I'm not really a programmer, but you're a crack 495 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,360 programmer. But you program as I as envisioned a sysadmin does. 496 00:32:06,690 --> 00:32:09,300 It's like, no matter what happens, if you got a customer 497 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,090 who's working with it, and there's a problem, you wave your 498 00:32:12,090 --> 00:32:16,470 wand, and something comes back immediately. Don't worry about 499 00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:19,770 it, I got you covered. Okay, it's good. And whatever, 500 00:32:19,890 --> 00:32:21,540 whatever needs fixing, I'll work on that. 501 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,610 You know, sis admins used to be, that's the difference between an 502 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:30,780 IT guy or an in the network administrator, and a SIS admin 503 00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:33,930 is back in the day. I mean, if you're a sysadmin, you had to be 504 00:32:33,930 --> 00:32:37,590 a programmer to I mean, you, you may not be a great one. But you 505 00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:40,320 had to have programming skills, because you couldn't get your 506 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,800 job done without it. Oh, yeah, you said, a lot of sysadmin 507 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,830 stuff. It's all very practically, the programming 508 00:32:46,830 --> 00:32:49,830 stuff that sis admins do and learn how to do is all very, 509 00:32:49,860 --> 00:32:52,860 it's just, it may not, it's not what you see coming out of your 510 00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:56,070 computer science courses in college, it's like, you know, 511 00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:59,760 just make it work, peer, you know, period and make it not 512 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,430 break in the middle of the night where I had to fix it. That's, 513 00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:05,490 you know, those are two, those are two things. That's what 514 00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:08,010 you're talking about with kind of throwing everything in here 515 00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:11,280 is another Achilles heel. This product we built over the years 516 00:33:11,550 --> 00:33:15,420 is that it does like okay, I don't know if you remember this 517 00:33:15,420 --> 00:33:18,900 at one point in the on the editor page, it had a Morse code 518 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:21,450 interpreter on it, you could just type into it. And it would 519 00:33:21,450 --> 00:33:23,940 spit out Morse code. I mean, that's some crazy crap. 520 00:33:23,970 --> 00:33:28,230 I remember, you know, why wasn't I working on like a Morse code 521 00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:31,080 translator through audio or something? I know that none of 522 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,210 what I've added was crazy projects 523 00:33:33,270 --> 00:33:35,070 through it. You were like you were wanting to you were wanting 524 00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:39,630 to distribute Show Notes through the relay network. Ham radios, 525 00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:43,530 repeaters, and I'll send like, okay, Morse code bit by bit Neo 526 00:33:43,530 --> 00:33:47,430 done. At one point I just took it took all that crap out. I'm 527 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:50,100 like, it's just not even useful anymore. So I don't even know 528 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:51,090 what it does. You have to 529 00:33:51,090 --> 00:33:55,620 it's like, it's like having all the elves at Santas workshop on 530 00:33:55,620 --> 00:34:01,170 call. Dave, I want to I want the train with the truck and the 531 00:34:01,170 --> 00:34:04,800 ladder on it. But it has to have, you know, the tank tracks. 532 00:34:05,070 --> 00:34:09,840 And he goes into the shed and comes back look at it. So we've, 533 00:34:10,290 --> 00:34:13,620 we've had a wonderful working relationship that has never been 534 00:34:13,620 --> 00:34:16,650 about money. Never been about anything but building cool 535 00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:19,380 stuff. And we just kept in touch about stuff we friends, you 536 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:23,730 know, even though we don't live near each other, and was like 537 00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:25,920 one of those you don't have to talk to each other for half a 538 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,330 year and then come pick it right up. 539 00:34:27,779 --> 00:34:31,499 Yeah. And I think you know, I think that's really what, what 540 00:34:31,499 --> 00:34:33,779 made. I think that's really what's made the whole thing 541 00:34:33,779 --> 00:34:38,099 rewarding for me over the years is just the, you know, the no 542 00:34:38,099 --> 00:34:42,359 pressure aspect of it. And it's always been fun and challenging. 543 00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:46,559 And those two things like, you know, meaning meaningful work. I 544 00:34:46,559 --> 00:34:50,189 don't know where I heard they do meaningful work and, and 545 00:34:50,219 --> 00:34:53,159 meaningful relationships are like the two most important 546 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:57,629 things in here in human life. And like that's, that's what 547 00:34:57,659 --> 00:35:01,589 this project has been like Like taking it back to aggregators 548 00:35:01,589 --> 00:35:05,579 for a minute, like, the first thing that we realized or, you 549 00:35:05,579 --> 00:35:10,649 know, I realized immediately is that, like, you see a bunch of 550 00:35:10,649 --> 00:35:13,169 like starter app stuff. So whenever you have a new 551 00:35:13,169 --> 00:35:15,629 programming languages, you know, one of the first starter apps 552 00:35:15,629 --> 00:35:22,079 besides the world, build an RSS reader. So you think, Okay, this 553 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:27,209 must be easy, oh, my God, it is the most not easy thing in the 554 00:35:27,209 --> 00:35:33,509 world to be. So to build an RSS reader, a feed reader, when you 555 00:35:33,569 --> 00:35:38,009 are looking at maybe 10 example feeds. Now, that's fine. When 556 00:35:38,009 --> 00:35:41,069 you start to get up into something that's actually useful 557 00:35:41,069 --> 00:35:44,849 in the real world of the way feeds really look and the way 558 00:35:44,849 --> 00:35:48,239 they're really broken. And you're talking about potentially 559 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,439 10s of 1000s, or hundreds of 1000s of feeds, it becomes a 560 00:35:52,439 --> 00:35:58,499 complete crap show immediately, like this. So you start to see 561 00:35:58,529 --> 00:36:06,269 all kinds of broken XML, things, think crazy stuff like, like one 562 00:36:06,269 --> 00:36:11,219 thing that I saw early on was feeds that did not have an XML 563 00:36:11,219 --> 00:36:15,359 open tag, at the beginning of them, you would have, you would 564 00:36:15,359 --> 00:36:19,799 have an item in the tag that would have three pub date tags 565 00:36:19,799 --> 00:36:22,619 in it. What do you even do with that? I mean, like which ones 566 00:36:22,619 --> 00:36:27,479 right, right? Or you would have a feed that had two channel 567 00:36:27,479 --> 00:36:31,019 tags? Well, I mean, that's completely. So the whole world 568 00:36:31,019 --> 00:36:35,159 of RSS is a complete chaotic mess. And I think it's 569 00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:36,569 beautiful, but it's chaos. 570 00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:41,010 To add one thing to that, I think to this day, I do not put 571 00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:46,470 an ampersand in the title of any podcast, because I believe that 572 00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:50,280 breaks the apple podcast app, at least it may break others, but 573 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,370 Oh, does it Yeah. And you know, so before I can, I will often 574 00:36:53,370 --> 00:36:57,240 say how about this tonight? No ampersand man, no, no, add sign. 575 00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,550 No, don't don't don't do anything weird exclamation mark. 576 00:36:59,550 --> 00:37:01,710 We can do we know we get away with that. But otherwise, it's 577 00:37:01,710 --> 00:37:05,670 really open or close. Don't put none of that. Exactly. None of 578 00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:09,690 those things in there. Yeah. So that experience that you have is 579 00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:13,500 is astronomical in the business, I would say. 580 00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:18,210 And I would say this, that what what I think me and you both 581 00:37:18,210 --> 00:37:22,260 wanted from the very beginning, is because because you can 582 00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:26,700 handle that problem. Two ways. You can say, well, probably more 583 00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:29,220 than that. But you can you can, you can take a hard line, or you 584 00:37:29,220 --> 00:37:32,970 can say you don't validate fu Yeah, exactly. This feed, if 585 00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:36,090 there's something wrong or goofy in this feed, I just digit. Oh, 586 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,330 you know, and, and I will, I will begin to parse it again, 587 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,020 five months from now when you actually fix it. Or you can say, 588 00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:47,760 which was the old like UNIX mindset of be liberal with what 589 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,240 you accept right? And conservative with what you give. 590 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,850 So like, you can, you can say, and this is the approach that 591 00:37:53,850 --> 00:37:59,010 we've taken, is, we're going to do everything humanly possible 592 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,080 in code to fix this feed what we think is broken about it, and 593 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,920 then parse it, right. So that like, what you end up with, is 594 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,870 over a corpus of let's say, 6000 feeds news feeds, you end up 595 00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:17,430 with maybe the 15% of them that are completely broken. But if 596 00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:22,590 you can fix, you know, if you can fix 10% of that 15 Of those, 597 00:38:22,590 --> 00:38:26,100 then you get, you may see content that ends up being 598 00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:27,570 really important that you don't miss. 599 00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:31,890 And this is so now we're at the spot where I made one of my 600 00:38:31,890 --> 00:38:37,980 famous calls to Dave, and said, let me talk to you about this. I 601 00:38:37,980 --> 00:38:38,580 have an idea. 602 00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:42,990 And I was like yeah, 603 00:38:42,990 --> 00:38:46,380 sure. What are we gonna do? Okay, what is it? So there's a 604 00:38:46,380 --> 00:38:50,850 little history to it. Obviously, I actually in March, I went on 605 00:38:50,850 --> 00:38:56,340 the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, and which was in I 606 00:38:56,340 --> 00:38:59,940 mean, it's like being invited on to tonight's show. It's, it's, 607 00:39:00,030 --> 00:39:03,840 I've never even been invited on The Tonight Show. Cuz I don't I 608 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,620 don't think I'm a great guest for short term. yucks. You know, 609 00:39:07,620 --> 00:39:11,580 with the, with the pre produced setup lines, longer things I'm 610 00:39:11,580 --> 00:39:14,880 quite okay with. But Joe was also super nice guy. And he was 611 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,300 very, he wanted to hear the story, the story of podcasting. 612 00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:21,960 And he was, it was just an incredibly nice experience. Now, 613 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:27,900 it's a great show. Yeah, it was, it was really fun. And we've 614 00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:30,780 kept in touch actually, since then, and I've helped him with 615 00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:35,700 his move with his move to Austin. And, but his Spotify 616 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:40,080 deal was announced, maybe two weeks after that, and he told me 617 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,240 about on the phone and we chatted and what it meant. And, 618 00:39:42,450 --> 00:39:45,120 you know, he also was kind of happy and I said to him, I think 619 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,480 maybe even on the show like oh man, canceled culture is wicked, 620 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,020 you know, and they had actually, I think, tried to go after him 621 00:39:52,020 --> 00:39:56,280 and now these things do affect sponsors and no matter who you 622 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,120 are, depending on how you know how wide it can get with it. The 623 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,260 craziness but in general, he's really saved he saves his his 624 00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:09,840 whole property by having this protection of income protection 625 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,510 is really what it's about with with Spotify and and for me it 626 00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:18,120 was fantastic personally because I kind of got a I got 627 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,490 recertified, you know, it's like oh look at this guy remember 628 00:40:20,490 --> 00:40:27,840 him? Kind of on the it's a hell of a lot better than being on VH 629 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:33,930 one flashback, so it felt very good about it. You might my 630 00:40:33,930 --> 00:40:36,810 daughter just turned 30 So I got my friends all loved it. They 631 00:40:36,810 --> 00:40:38,010 all watch rogue so 632 00:40:38,310 --> 00:40:42,240 perfect. Yes. Macaulay Culkin on Twitter the other day said, Hey, 633 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:44,880 guys, I just turned 40. How does it make you feel that you don't 634 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:45,630 want to be that guy? 635 00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:47,400 Exactly, exactly. 636 00:40:48,660 --> 00:40:51,930 But I realized that this was kind of a shame, because as of 637 00:40:51,930 --> 00:40:55,560 the first of the year after a transition period, Joe's no 638 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,440 longer going to be available in any other app, I'm just going to 639 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,610 call it an app, then the Spotify app as far as I understand it. 640 00:41:03,150 --> 00:41:05,370 And that makes sense. Because they need to have that exclusive 641 00:41:05,370 --> 00:41:08,610 for their, for their platform, which I have no problem with 642 00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:12,960 doesn't matter to me one bit, mainly because I feel that this 643 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,380 creates a space for the next Joe Rogan to come along. And the 644 00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:20,400 next one and the next one. And you know, this is a big world. 645 00:41:20,430 --> 00:41:24,090 And if you really look at what's out there, what's already being 646 00:41:24,090 --> 00:41:27,300 done in podcasts that you've never heard of or seen of, you 647 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,330 know, if you just if you're able to jump into a big pile of it, 648 00:41:30,450 --> 00:41:34,260 it's very interesting what what you what you come across. And so 649 00:41:34,260 --> 00:41:37,890 there's going to be a vacuum and that vacuum will get filled up. 650 00:41:37,890 --> 00:41:41,370 And I think that's only good for everybody. So that but that did 651 00:41:41,370 --> 00:41:45,030 make me think a bit about Okay, where's this going? What is what 652 00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:49,140 is happening? What are the strategies? The second piece is 653 00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:55,800 when Apple decided to D platform Infowars and Alex Jones in this 654 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,030 was this was I know that this hurt his business? Because his 655 00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:03,270 business really came from the podcast from the audio podcast. 656 00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:05,970 Same with Joe Rogan, by the way. You think it's all the YouTube? 657 00:42:06,810 --> 00:42:11,130 The YouTube money, which no, I don't think he was sad about the 658 00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:14,940 YouTube money. But the podcast, the mp3 is where the money was 659 00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:15,510 coming from. 660 00:42:16,110 --> 00:42:19,320 Alex Jones did he? Did he have no I thought he was on radio 661 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,640 too. When he syndicated he's 662 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,240 always been streaming. He's always been a streamer. But he's 663 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:27,900 been doing a podcast from day one. And and that's particularly 664 00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:30,510 back in the day when when podcasting, its subscribe 665 00:42:30,510 --> 00:42:33,600 mechanism was very important because we had low bandwidth, 666 00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:36,000 you either couldn't stream or you just be sitting there 667 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,240 waiting for something to download podcasting helped us 668 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:42,540 over that bandwidth hump. Gotcha, which was part of the 669 00:42:42,570 --> 00:42:48,870 original idea behind it. What was that? First of all, I didn't 670 00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:52,920 like that Apple did that. I thought that they were, you 671 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,350 know, knowing what's out there and what is available through 672 00:42:55,350 --> 00:42:58,200 them, I just felt they were making a shitty judgment call. 673 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,560 And that turns out, they've done more of that, then this was 674 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:09,030 really well publicized. But because of the ecosystem, to use 675 00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:13,740 that shitty word, the ecosystem of podcasting, most podcast apps 676 00:43:13,740 --> 00:43:18,030 are getting their search queries and their directory information 677 00:43:18,030 --> 00:43:22,770 from the Apple System, which again, is is very nice that 678 00:43:22,770 --> 00:43:26,610 they've allowed that. And we'll talk about that, what they 679 00:43:26,610 --> 00:43:29,670 actually allow and how that works. But there was a domino 680 00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:34,170 effect. And the domino effect was that other podcast apps now 681 00:43:34,170 --> 00:43:39,600 also no longer had Infowars and Alex Jones. And that was like, 682 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,410 wow, you know, that's a weakness. Because for one thing, 683 00:43:44,010 --> 00:43:49,320 and this is our motto, for what we're going to explain. So what 684 00:43:49,470 --> 00:43:51,660 longer than I intended, but I think it's important to get all 685 00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:58,050 this history out, is really, we need to preserve podcasting, as 686 00:43:58,050 --> 00:44:02,250 a platform for free speech. But podcasting is the literal free 687 00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:06,420 speech example. There's nothing else but people talk. And of 688 00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:08,760 course, there's many different types of podcasts, but you get 689 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,180 the idea. So that has to be maintained, and there's no 690 00:44:12,180 --> 00:44:18,960 reason why we can't have a way for that. It's just there. You 691 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,900 know, it should be like, it should be more like your own 692 00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:25,140 blog. And not like Twitter, you know, you shouldn't be kicked 693 00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:28,890 off should be like DNS, thank you lets you be like DNS, you 694 00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:33,900 should just be able to get the podcast, and it should be 695 00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:36,750 available, you should be able to find an app that works for you 696 00:44:36,750 --> 00:44:44,640 that you like. And as I looked at this scenario, I saw the 697 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:51,600 problem. And it's most definitely I was involved in the 698 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:58,920 initial decision to give my copy of the index to Apple, but that 699 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,310 needs to be outside of any entity that needs to live in a 700 00:45:02,310 --> 00:45:08,610 place where you don't have to go through some intake process, 701 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,200 other than Gee, can we make sense of your feed, it shouldn't 702 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,220 be limited to what your free speech is, after all, it's just 703 00:45:17,220 --> 00:45:21,210 speech. Hate speech is speech, love speech, speech, it's all 704 00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:26,250 speech, I don't really care, the internet should has thank you 705 00:45:26,250 --> 00:45:29,970 for that analogy. The just like DNS doesn't care what website 706 00:45:29,970 --> 00:45:32,790 is, or what server is going to connect you to. That's really 707 00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:35,580 what I thought would be very powerful. 708 00:45:35,610 --> 00:45:38,970 Yeah, you if you, if you think about it in those terms, I mean, 709 00:45:38,970 --> 00:45:44,130 what what's needed is a directory, where the central 710 00:45:44,130 --> 00:45:50,940 directory itself has little to no policing. And then because if 711 00:45:50,940 --> 00:45:55,410 you think about it in DNS terms, if I don't want certain websites 712 00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:59,100 to be shown on my net on my internal network, then I just 713 00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:03,030 filter them at my door, don't feel I don't, I don't expect the 714 00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:07,380 root DNS name servers to filter out all the porn, all the porn 715 00:46:07,380 --> 00:46:10,440 domains, right now that they exist. And if I don't want them 716 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,820 here, you know, I just, I just filter them. And you know, so if 717 00:46:14,820 --> 00:46:17,910 you have a podcast directory, that's just got everything, and 718 00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:20,910 it's not making these decisions. And then you put the tools in 719 00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:23,880 the hands of each individual, each individual, either 720 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,990 developer, or listener, to filter and set up those those 721 00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:31,170 things that they can curate their own list. And 722 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:38,850 the flaw was that there was no incentive for independent 723 00:46:38,850 --> 00:46:43,500 software developers to really jump into making a great 724 00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:48,000 podcast, I'm gonna call it podcast experience, because just 725 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,640 saying a podcast that puts you in a frame of mind of what 726 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,900 everybody's always doing. What we learned with publishing our 727 00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:59,970 show notes in OPML, on the no agenda show, is that if you just 728 00:46:59,970 --> 00:47:03,300 OPML, which is structured data, so it's not even a database, 729 00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:07,530 it's just all these files that are easy to parse, and you can 730 00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:11,280 do something with lo and behold, we have developers who just gave 731 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,760 access to it just said, Oh, it's here, who've created search 732 00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:19,170 engines, show notes, pages with players, I mean, all kinds of 733 00:47:19,170 --> 00:47:21,750 stuff integrated. The search engine stuff is really 734 00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:26,100 impressive. It is, yeah, just by sucking up in ingressing, all of 735 00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:29,490 that structured data, which is exactly how Oh, my God, there's 736 00:47:29,490 --> 00:47:32,070 that word interrupt works is supposed to be it's all supposed 737 00:47:32,070 --> 00:47:34,950 to work together. But what incentive do they have they're 738 00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:39,450 not a software developer of a podcast app is not in the value 739 00:47:39,450 --> 00:47:46,620 chain of what's going on between the podcaster and the podcast, 740 00:47:47,220 --> 00:47:52,170 listeners. They're just there to help and facilitate. And there's 741 00:47:52,170 --> 00:47:55,860 really, in my mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's no way 742 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,700 for a developer to really focus on all that when most of your 743 00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:02,490 time is going to be spent on exactly what you were talking 744 00:48:02,490 --> 00:48:06,570 about all this shit, that just doesn't work. Because it's 745 00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:11,160 flawed. I mean, people, it's just not, it takes a lot of work 746 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,390 to get your aggregation and all these fees working. And then, 747 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:15,930 you know, 748 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:22,020 I would say it took probably, I don't think I'm being I don't 749 00:48:22,020 --> 00:48:24,630 think I'm exaggerating to say it took probably five years to get 750 00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:28,110 to aggregator where it was consistently good and not 751 00:48:28,110 --> 00:48:35,310 missing feeds. Like, I think that if you if you go, what 752 00:48:35,310 --> 00:48:37,920 would happen is you go in and you say, okay, everything looks 753 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,290 great. And then you would read it, and then you would make it I 754 00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:43,620 would, I would realize that there is some edge case, this 755 00:48:43,650 --> 00:48:46,470 certain phase we're hitting. And so then I would make a change in 756 00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:49,680 the code. And and like all of a sudden, you would contact me 757 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,810 soon as I would push the new software to your server and 758 00:48:51,810 --> 00:48:54,420 maybe with you'd say, oh my god, I'm seeing like, feeds I haven't 759 00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:54,600 seen. 760 00:48:56,010 --> 00:48:59,130 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we had we have all kinds of 761 00:48:59,130 --> 00:49:02,130 functionality like piano feet painted a story 762 00:49:02,999 --> 00:49:06,899 new and maybe it was a cause. It may have been because these 763 00:49:06,929 --> 00:49:10,259 these feeds are being generated by the same software and they 764 00:49:10,259 --> 00:49:14,699 were letting a weird UTF eight noncompliant character through 765 00:49:14,699 --> 00:49:17,159 in the encoding are some crap right? That you know, right? 766 00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:19,829 It's like in that would that would just Bork a whole you 767 00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:25,109 know, a whole handful of fades. And so like the the years of 768 00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:30,389 experience of getting the act of getting all these problems and 769 00:49:30,389 --> 00:49:33,479 making the adjustments necessary to get the feeds to work right 770 00:49:33,479 --> 00:49:38,549 in the in our aggregator. You know, that that led to this 771 00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:41,279 where it's like, Hey, can we do this on a bigger scale for 772 00:49:41,279 --> 00:49:42,029 podcast, 773 00:49:42,060 --> 00:49:45,870 right? Also, all the functionality you would want to 774 00:49:45,870 --> 00:49:51,720 have from an entire database of all podcasts and I think, debut 775 00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:55,950 and I like this, because the all podcast in the universe is a 776 00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:59,970 number you can kind of see it's not like all web pages, but all 777 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,200 Podcast feeds in the universe, we can kind of see it. So. So I 778 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:09,300 also was thinking like, wow, we really need to retool podcasting 779 00:50:09,300 --> 00:50:15,510 and another edit next stage and turn it into a platform of 780 00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:19,110 value. And what that means we're going to get to, as we continue 781 00:50:19,110 --> 00:50:22,200 in this process and this project in the podcast, want to take a 782 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,820 break, I want to play a clip here. I was sent a link by Luke 783 00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:30,090 from to hell, he's in Finland, I've known Luke for a long time, 784 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,110 he was putting podcasting into the Nokia, the early Nokia 785 00:50:34,110 --> 00:50:38,790 devices, the end was that the na 81, or that were on the MeeGo 786 00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:42,750 platform that MIMO MeeGo and the all the Linux stuff they were 787 00:50:42,750 --> 00:50:46,650 putting into, into portable devices that, of course, kind of 788 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,780 disappeared when the iPhone came out. And he sent me a link to 789 00:50:51,780 --> 00:50:55,770 the accidental tech podcast, which is this Marcos show? 790 00:50:56,460 --> 00:50:58,800 Yeah, this is the developer of overcast. Yeah. 791 00:50:58,860 --> 00:51:04,410 So overcast is a podcast app that, you know that that I use, 792 00:51:04,410 --> 00:51:08,610 I use it to you Marco is as has built a business out of it. I 793 00:51:08,610 --> 00:51:11,610 think he's one of the few. And we'll we'll talk more about, you 794 00:51:11,610 --> 00:51:15,060 know, what podcast apps are out there and why they're around and 795 00:51:15,090 --> 00:51:18,780 what their future is. But he sent me this this link, and it 796 00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:22,830 was, it was kind of related to what to what I was thinking at 797 00:51:22,830 --> 00:51:26,760 the time. And I think I sent this no, that episode to you. 798 00:51:27,210 --> 00:51:30,030 Yeah, you texted me. And you're like, you're like, listen to 799 00:51:30,030 --> 00:51:30,960 this, let's talk. 800 00:51:31,410 --> 00:51:35,040 And so they weren't using Alex Jones as an example, but 801 00:51:35,070 --> 00:51:38,670 something that Apple had done with their Apple news podcast, 802 00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:43,470 and they had removed it from the index, because they wanted I 803 00:51:43,470 --> 00:51:46,620 guess they wanted to kind of force people to use the Apple 804 00:51:46,620 --> 00:51:50,040 news app to listen to that podcast. And to me, this was 805 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,030 kind of the the Oh, wow, yeah, we got to do something about 806 00:51:54,030 --> 00:51:58,080 this moment. Because, you know, Apple is willing to do things to 807 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:03,660 their index, that, that, that hurt podcasting, across the 808 00:52:03,660 --> 00:52:07,710 board, because feeds go away and things don't come in and things 809 00:52:07,710 --> 00:52:10,920 can change. And it's an it's an I can't blame them for decisions 810 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,120 they make. But instead of complaining, we've decided to do 811 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,660 something about it. So here's what the who was Marco talking 812 00:52:18,660 --> 00:52:19,500 to on this. 813 00:52:19,620 --> 00:52:22,260 He's just talking to his co hosts on the show about about 814 00:52:22,260 --> 00:52:26,430 this Apple news today, podcast and how and what what sort of 815 00:52:26,430 --> 00:52:28,890 the trickery that Apple was playing in their index with it. 816 00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:34,110 The iTunes directory is serving as only like directory listing 817 00:52:34,140 --> 00:52:37,260 to tell you here a podcast that exists that are registered with 818 00:52:37,260 --> 00:52:42,780 Apple, that Apple's staff has like vetted to be seemingly 819 00:52:42,810 --> 00:52:46,410 legit, seemingly not illegal or inappropriate or anything like 820 00:52:46,410 --> 00:52:50,730 that. Here's the RSS feed. And then you go to the RSS feed from 821 00:52:50,730 --> 00:52:52,980 that point forward and apples no longer in the picture. So they 822 00:52:52,980 --> 00:52:55,470 really are just like a listing service that's telling you, 823 00:52:55,590 --> 00:52:58,410 here's our RSS feeds for these podcasts that we think are legit 824 00:52:58,410 --> 00:53:03,420 podcasts. And so the definition of what is a public podcast, 825 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:06,870 what the way most people interpret that is something you 826 00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:10,770 can get to in any podcast app. The more technical side of it 827 00:53:10,770 --> 00:53:13,860 seems to be it has to have a public RSS feed. But 828 00:53:13,860 --> 00:53:16,650 realistically, if it's not listed on Apple podcast with a 829 00:53:16,650 --> 00:53:20,070 public RSS feed, it's not gonna seem like a public podcast to 830 00:53:20,070 --> 00:53:24,900 most people most of the time. What Apple news today has is a 831 00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:29,520 little bit interesting. Apple news today has an iTunes ID. It 832 00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,760 is playable and searchable in Apple podcasts, it shows up in 833 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,610 the Apple Podcast Directory even in the API if you search for it. 834 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,300 However, its entry in the API does not have a feed URL that's 835 00:53:42,300 --> 00:53:46,350 just missing. So it kind of seems like Apple doesn't want 836 00:53:46,350 --> 00:53:52,740 other apps to play this. Now, if one were to manually set in a 837 00:53:52,740 --> 00:53:57,990 database, in a podcast app, this feed URL matches this iTunes ID. 838 00:53:58,050 --> 00:54:00,840 If you happen to know the right fit URL, and you happen to make 839 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:06,090 it public, it happens to play just fine. So most podcast apps 840 00:54:06,090 --> 00:54:09,210 there that have kind of been, you know, on top of this story, 841 00:54:09,570 --> 00:54:12,900 you can now search for Apple news today and just play it. And 842 00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:16,290 it works. Because most podcasts apps, I've realized, Oh, we just 843 00:54:16,290 --> 00:54:20,400 add this RSS feed and make it searchable for this title, and 844 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:25,650 it will work. And I think the I think the reason it has an RSS 845 00:54:25,650 --> 00:54:29,670 feed that's undocumented and not listed in the public API, is I 846 00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:32,880 think Apple wants it to be an exclusive to Apple podcasts 847 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,130 because they're trying to gain some kind of leverage over 848 00:54:35,130 --> 00:54:38,880 Spotify, which is eating a lot of their market share in the 849 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:45,210 podcast player space. But the apple podcast apps do not do 850 00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:50,550 server side crawling. They crawl RSS feeds directly. Apple has 851 00:54:50,550 --> 00:54:52,470 some servers like crawling to update its directories and 852 00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:56,580 everything. But when you play a podcast on Apple podcasts, it is 853 00:54:56,580 --> 00:55:00,120 directly crawling the RSS feeds from your app on your phone. on 854 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,870 your, on your Mac or whatever. And so for the Apple podcasts 855 00:55:03,870 --> 00:55:07,920 app to be able to play this exclusive podcast without 856 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,010 significantly rewriting it and some and rewriting some back end 857 00:55:11,010 --> 00:55:14,010 server stuff, which is probably a bigger project with an apple 858 00:55:14,010 --> 00:55:16,710 than what they can probably get engineering resources for right 859 00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:21,000 now. For it to be playable in their own app, they had to give 860 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:26,880 it an RSS feed. So I think it has one, just for that reason. 861 00:55:28,140 --> 00:55:32,190 So yes, I think I think what freaked everybody out? I think 862 00:55:32,190 --> 00:55:37,290 that's, that's a good sort of snippet. To show what freaked 863 00:55:37,290 --> 00:55:40,830 everybody out was that Apple is starting to sort of tinker with 864 00:55:40,830 --> 00:55:43,860 the directory now, right? Not just with the Alex Jones sort of 865 00:55:43,860 --> 00:55:47,580 D listing type of stuff, which is, you know, there's always 866 00:55:47,580 --> 00:55:50,100 going to be a certain amount of people that are okay with that, 867 00:55:50,130 --> 00:55:52,710 you know, and that's, that's, that's fine. You know, 868 00:55:52,890 --> 00:55:55,800 everybody's personal politics, but there's always going to be 869 00:55:56,910 --> 00:56:00,420 the next step. And so like, when you if you're de listing 870 00:56:00,420 --> 00:56:02,970 somebody that a lot of people don't like, you know, okay, 871 00:56:02,970 --> 00:56:06,120 well, that's, you know, maybe we can forgive that, and then the 872 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,700 next but then the next step is Okay, now we're starting to 873 00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:14,640 return things from the directory, which has become the 874 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,480 default directory for podcasting for pretty much everybody. If 875 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,000 you're not in the iTunes directory, you don't exist for 876 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,350 the most part. So now that they're starting to do little 877 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,280 odd stuff like that, which means like not returning a feed URL 878 00:56:29,580 --> 00:56:33,870 that begins to give you pause and say, Well, you know, is it 879 00:56:33,900 --> 00:56:39,900 the best idea for one company? And I think, as far as comm big 880 00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:43,470 tech companies, I'm probably on the side of apple 90% of the 881 00:56:43,470 --> 00:56:47,310 time, in most cases for their privacy stances, and that kind 882 00:56:47,310 --> 00:56:51,510 of thing. But just in general, as a general rule, is probably 883 00:56:51,810 --> 00:56:57,210 is it the is it the best idea for one company to be in sort of 884 00:56:57,210 --> 00:57:01,920 in control of the directory for all of podcasting, which is 885 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,070 supposed to be this open platform? I mean, like, if you 886 00:57:05,070 --> 00:57:07,290 think of in terms of like DNS, like we talked about a while 887 00:57:07,290 --> 00:57:13,470 ago, there's not one company that owns all of DNS, you know, 888 00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:17,220 it's it's fairly distributed at the top, you know, there are, 889 00:57:17,550 --> 00:57:21,330 obviously financial interests, but it's distributed enough to 890 00:57:21,330 --> 00:57:26,280 where one company can't use can't push their own interests 891 00:57:26,550 --> 00:57:30,630 into the way that it functions. But that's not what we have in 892 00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:34,440 podcasting. Now, what we have is a very centralized, private 893 00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:38,610 entity that is controlling pretty much what everybody 894 00:57:38,610 --> 00:57:41,730 considers the default, Yellow Pages for podcasting. 895 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,970 And so this problem, and then Marco was talking, I don't have 896 00:57:47,970 --> 00:57:50,820 the clip, but he was talking about what would it take to do 897 00:57:50,820 --> 00:57:54,840 an independent directory. And as I was listening to that, I 898 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,630 realized that everyone is, and I don't want to accuse them of 899 00:57:57,630 --> 00:58:01,440 this, but most people are stuck in the it's, you know, how do we 900 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,760 monetize? How do we make money? How do we do advertising? Do it, 901 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,250 it would take investors, you know, all these things that I've 902 00:58:08,250 --> 00:58:12,210 been through and have absolutely no interest in being a part of, 903 00:58:12,540 --> 00:58:17,280 but I did know a guy who loves a challenge and a fun project. 904 00:58:18,420 --> 00:58:22,590 Does that? Yeah. And I thought, you know, wouldn't it be 905 00:58:22,590 --> 00:58:26,940 interesting, if we could do a couple things, one, we need to, 906 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,800 to preserve podcasting as a platform for free speech. And, 907 00:58:32,370 --> 00:58:40,470 and in order to do that, we have to create a an index that 908 00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:46,170 anybody can access for their, for their project. And this is 909 00:58:46,170 --> 00:58:50,100 developers, this is this is a news, we're an API company. This 910 00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:56,550 is not about a public facing thing. So we need to enable that 911 00:58:56,550 --> 00:59:03,120 and also have have the core index be available for anybody 912 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,870 for free for any use at any time. So if you want to go and 913 00:59:06,870 --> 00:59:10,650 create your own index and load up a database, then you should 914 00:59:10,650 --> 00:59:17,280 be able to download this, you know, in a CSV file and anything 915 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,360 you want and and that would kind of be the challenge and I think 916 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,240 when we talk like you know, there's there's so many ways to 917 00:59:24,450 --> 00:59:28,440 do this simple part than not have it break you know, break 918 00:59:28,470 --> 00:59:33,180 our bank initially as we see if it catches on and having enough 919 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,950 experience with the value for value model in podcasting, which 920 00:59:37,950 --> 00:59:40,680 means Hey, you know, you you get out of it, what you put into it, 921 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:45,840 people who would be interested in supporting this type of a 922 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:51,660 project can just donate to the PayPal on podcast index.org 923 00:59:51,690 --> 00:59:53,550 First time I think we've mentioned the URL in this 924 00:59:53,550 --> 00:59:54,180 podcast 925 00:59:56,220 --> 01:00:00,090 is index.org is the is the product so to speak to We're 926 01:00:00,090 --> 01:00:06,120 building and net that's that's the, if you think about if you 927 01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,140 think about what you would want, as a developer, you would say, 928 01:00:10,140 --> 01:00:14,070 Okay, I, if I'm going to build do a project around podcasting, 929 01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:16,920 the number one thing that I want is the ability to search for 930 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:22,770 podcasts, request information about podcasts, about the feed 931 01:00:22,770 --> 01:00:26,220 and all the metadata that goes around it, and be able to see 932 01:00:26,220 --> 01:00:29,730 when there's new episodes in various ways, those are the 933 01:00:29,730 --> 01:00:32,280 three things that as a developer you want, and those are the 934 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:36,120 things that we're aiming to provide at the beginning. Just 935 01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,700 around around this initial product, there's, yeah, 936 01:00:38,850 --> 01:00:46,320 so the idea is, and the belief is there that developers really 937 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,460 want to develop, and for stuff that they probably want 938 01:00:50,460 --> 01:00:55,440 themselves see Adam and Dave, for the past decade. It's too 939 01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:01,050 much heavy lifting to get into this game. The competition seems 940 01:01:01,110 --> 01:01:05,460 overwhelming. And that is a piece that I think, you know, we 941 01:01:05,460 --> 01:01:09,180 actually discussed our roadmap way before starting down the 942 01:01:09,180 --> 01:01:12,540 road at all, and how we thought we could actually bring some 943 01:01:12,750 --> 01:01:16,740 huge value to the software developers who are creating. And 944 01:01:16,740 --> 01:01:19,680 it doesn't just have to be an app, it can be an html5 app for 945 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,430 all I care does. And any any type of application, or 946 01:01:23,430 --> 01:01:27,570 directory service or notification. The idea is give 947 01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,480 everybody as much access to as many different functions as 948 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,210 possible. And let's see if something great comes out of it. 949 01:01:33,210 --> 01:01:37,440 So before we talk about the API, specifically, I want to review 950 01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:43,080 and this is all at podcast index.org. Right at the top of 951 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,110 the podcast index is an open project to preserve podcasting 952 01:01:46,110 --> 01:01:49,890 as a platform for free speech. I don't care as long as you we 953 01:01:49,890 --> 01:01:55,890 don't care. As long as you have an RSS feed. It could be your 954 01:01:55,890 --> 01:02:01,200 lecture, there's no intake process. Anybody can add a feed 955 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,260 to the index, there's no claim your feed, your feed is in 956 01:02:04,260 --> 01:02:07,710 there, it's not in there doesn't matter who was added to it. The 957 01:02:07,710 --> 01:02:12,060 core categorise index is always available for free for any use, 958 01:02:12,450 --> 01:02:18,300 and will have archives in multiple places. Now, we are a 959 01:02:18,300 --> 01:02:22,530 partnership, a limited liability corporation, podcast index LLC. 960 01:02:22,770 --> 01:02:25,710 And we are a software developer focused partnership. I'm reading 961 01:02:25,710 --> 01:02:29,040 this that provides tools and data to anyone who aspires to 962 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,640 create new and exciting podcast experiences. Without the heavy 963 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,970 lifting of indexing aggregation and data management. What that 964 01:02:35,970 --> 01:02:40,410 means is, our core of what we're doing is we're making this 965 01:02:40,410 --> 01:02:43,500 available on our dime, and anybody who wants to help, 966 01:02:43,590 --> 01:02:46,170 because they see the value of it, and they want to support us 967 01:02:46,740 --> 01:02:53,640 with a PayPal donation. We intend to find ways to create 968 01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:58,500 such value for developers podcasters and listeners that we 969 01:02:58,500 --> 01:03:01,470 will be able to get a piece of that we don't do it for anybody 970 01:03:01,470 --> 01:03:06,330 else. We don't get anything. Yeah. So again, the core podcast 971 01:03:06,330 --> 01:03:09,360 index is financed by bytes, founders and stakeholders, 972 01:03:09,390 --> 01:03:11,460 podcasters developers and listeners, we're all in this 973 01:03:11,460 --> 01:03:14,640 together. And that means it's more than just money. It's like 974 01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,580 we need feedback, we need people testing, we need people hitting 975 01:03:17,580 --> 01:03:21,450 the API, coming up with requests, coming up with great 976 01:03:21,450 --> 01:03:24,840 ideas that we can do to enhance what we make available. 977 01:03:25,410 --> 01:03:28,770 corporate interests and advertising are antithetical to 978 01:03:28,770 --> 01:03:33,450 our business. And podcast index LLC strives to grow by providing 979 01:03:33,450 --> 01:03:37,320 enhanced API services of value to developers and organizations, 980 01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,830 which means if we can't give you something, the value, then we're 981 01:03:40,830 --> 01:03:45,000 failing, and we may fail. And that is worth trying. So our 982 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,100 mission and goal, again, preserved podcasting as a 983 01:03:47,100 --> 01:03:50,100 platform for free speech. And then if we're successful with 984 01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:54,300 phase one, retool podcasting to a platform of value exchange 985 01:03:54,390 --> 01:03:57,960 that includes developers with the podcasters. And the 986 01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,920 listeners. And we started basically today with getting 987 01:04:01,950 --> 01:04:05,850 developers to sign up if you're just interested whether you have 988 01:04:06,540 --> 01:04:10,530 high skill level low skill level. Dave, tell us what is 989 01:04:10,530 --> 01:04:14,760 behind the curtain at api dot podcast index.org. 990 01:04:16,350 --> 01:04:21,600 Okay, so game game show style, the this. Let's see, if you go 991 01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,290 to API dot podcast index.org. You it's pretty simple. You can 992 01:04:25,290 --> 01:04:29,370 sign up for a developer account, and you get some API keys. 993 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:37,770 There's no There's no ad feature at the moment for adding feeds. 994 01:04:37,770 --> 01:04:39,870 That's, that's coming. But that's got to be you know, 995 01:04:39,870 --> 01:04:43,380 that's obviously very critical to make sure that you keep 996 01:04:43,380 --> 01:04:47,100 everything it actually is there when we say that, but it's not 997 01:04:47,100 --> 01:04:51,840 public. So that that API call will be public very soon. So 998 01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,450 there's two as a developer, there's two kinds of a there's 999 01:04:54,450 --> 01:04:58,890 two kinds of keys. There is a read key and a read write key. 1000 01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:03,390 So you can In AV, by default, you will have a read key, which 1001 01:05:03,390 --> 01:05:07,710 means you can hit the API and search for you can look, search 1002 01:05:07,710 --> 01:05:13,680 for podcasts by title, or you can do lookups on your own your 1003 01:05:13,710 --> 01:05:19,740 own podcast by iTunes ID or by Feed URL. Now to give you a lot 1004 01:05:19,740 --> 01:05:23,040 of data will give you the metadata around the feed. Or you 1005 01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:28,020 can search for episodes by iTunes ID or feed URL, and some 1006 01:05:28,050 --> 01:05:31,770 a few other calls that will let you just basically get all the 1007 01:05:31,770 --> 01:05:36,030 information that you need to begin to build whatever basic 1008 01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:39,960 app that you're gonna get, you're gonna build the the 1009 01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,800 probably most basic app that you would build out of something 1010 01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:49,980 like this is there on the in the developer pages. So once you get 1011 01:05:49,980 --> 01:05:53,040 logged in, you have you have documentation, you have your API 1012 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,920 keys page, and then you have something called Search. And if 1013 01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,430 you go to the search, that is basically a podcast player, you 1014 01:05:59,430 --> 01:06:02,580 search for the podcasts you want to you want to hear, it brings 1015 01:06:02,580 --> 01:06:05,760 you back a list of matching podcasts, you click on the one 1016 01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,730 you want to want to look at. It gives you a list of episodes, 1017 01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,250 and then you just click play. Now it can read the show notes. 1018 01:06:11,250 --> 01:06:11,670 And that can. 1019 01:06:12,060 --> 01:06:14,700 So what it doesn't have, obviously, or maybe not 1020 01:06:14,700 --> 01:06:17,970 obviously, is, is a subscribe mechanism, because that would be 1021 01:06:17,970 --> 01:06:23,160 something that is completely inherent to the application 1022 01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:23,760 itself. 1023 01:06:24,270 --> 01:06:29,370 Yeah, yeah. So like this would be to say that, I'm going to 1024 01:06:29,370 --> 01:06:34,080 build an app. And then I just go get my go get my keys. And then 1025 01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:36,810 I started writing my app. And then I'm just going to use these 1026 01:06:36,810 --> 01:06:42,900 keys to, to do to do subscribe, and get notified and get, you 1027 01:06:42,900 --> 01:06:46,320 know, fun find out when you when the feed gets updated and new 1028 01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:49,050 episodes are released. Right? That's perfectly possible, then 1029 01:06:49,050 --> 01:06:52,380 the subscription mechanism is just a per user thing within the 1030 01:06:52,380 --> 01:06:55,650 app itself. Okay, so the developer themselves would do 1031 01:06:55,650 --> 01:06:59,460 this trip now, how will I think we will handle subscriptions in 1032 01:06:59,460 --> 01:07:04,560 the future? That's definitely on the roadmap to be able to say, 1033 01:07:04,620 --> 01:07:09,630 Okay, I have here's an anonymous user ID. And I'm going to 1034 01:07:09,630 --> 01:07:13,050 anonymize it on the app side. And then I'm going to hand it to 1035 01:07:13,050 --> 01:07:19,170 your API and say, here's the fields that this anonymous user 1036 01:07:19,170 --> 01:07:25,050 ID is subscribed to let me know, when you like ping me when a new 1037 01:07:25,410 --> 01:07:28,200 episode is released from one of these fees that is in the 1038 01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,860 subscription list, or the other way around the URL, just check 1039 01:07:31,860 --> 01:07:34,830 every now and then with this anonymized ID. And you can tell 1040 01:07:34,830 --> 01:07:37,980 me whether or not any one of the feeds in that subscription list 1041 01:07:37,980 --> 01:07:41,700 has been has been updated. So that that's definitely on the on 1042 01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:45,720 the roadmap that lets you that lets your app be super lean. So 1043 01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:50,160 you can say okay, well, this person, however you choose to 1044 01:07:50,190 --> 01:07:54,420 identify your user, if it's an iPhone app, or whatever, if 1045 01:07:54,420 --> 01:07:57,780 there's, if you have an ID for that person, you just give that 1046 01:07:57,810 --> 01:08:02,370 ID back to our API. In a way we don't know anything about these 1047 01:08:02,550 --> 01:08:06,030 about this stuff. It's just a random value that you decide and 1048 01:08:06,030 --> 01:08:10,560 then we'll we'll just tell you, Okay, out of these 47 podcasts 1049 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,160 that this person did this idea, subscribe to these three have 1050 01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:18,060 changed. And you just mean a hit it every hour, or whatever you 1051 01:08:18,060 --> 01:08:18,360 want to do. 1052 01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:21,360 So how does this differ just for people who are still hanging in 1053 01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:24,450 there? Who are not developers? How does this differ from what 1054 01:08:24,450 --> 01:08:28,080 can be done with the iTunes directory now versus the podcast 1055 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:28,680 index? 1056 01:08:29,610 --> 01:08:33,090 I think it's, it differs a little it's but let's just say 1057 01:08:33,090 --> 01:08:36,510 from the from as it stands right now, it's, it's mostly similar. 1058 01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:43,950 Okay, the difference is the fact that it's that is outside of, of 1059 01:08:43,950 --> 01:08:49,110 any of any interested party, that, but the one technical 1060 01:08:49,110 --> 01:08:51,510 difference at the moment right now, though, is the ability to 1061 01:08:51,510 --> 01:08:56,160 get those episode lists easily. Right? We are we are doing the 1062 01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:00,120 aggregating if I understand it correctly, right now Apple in 1063 01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:05,970 their directory, you can get those, those episode lists, but 1064 01:09:05,970 --> 01:09:09,420 you do that through HTML scraping. So like you would have 1065 01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:11,730 to there and you know, like you're not going to get, you're 1066 01:09:11,730 --> 01:09:16,830 not going to ask their API, give me all the episodes. There may 1067 01:09:16,830 --> 01:09:20,010 be a way to do it through the through the iTunes API, but it's 1068 01:09:20,010 --> 01:09:24,450 not clean, right? So if you just for here, you've got, you know, 1069 01:09:24,630 --> 01:09:27,810 you've got the iTunes ID or you've got the feed URL in on 1070 01:09:27,810 --> 01:09:31,050 our API, you just say, you know, you just hit an endpoint, which 1071 01:09:31,050 --> 01:09:35,310 is episodes, recent, you know, are there episodes meaning by 1072 01:09:35,310 --> 01:09:37,590 Feed URL, and it just, it's just one hit 1073 01:09:37,619 --> 01:09:41,999 considering? Considering we want to, maybe I'm jumping ahead 1074 01:09:41,999 --> 01:09:46,889 here, but considering we want to close the loop between listener 1075 01:09:46,919 --> 01:09:53,189 and podcaster. With the with the aggregate with the app in the 1076 01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:57,359 middle? Is there anything developers should be thinking of 1077 01:09:57,389 --> 01:10:00,719 as they start their projects up front that would To help them 1078 01:10:00,719 --> 01:10:01,409 later on. 1079 01:10:05,130 --> 01:10:09,150 I would think that they need Well, that's a hard one. And 1080 01:10:09,150 --> 01:10:13,020 because you know, the the biggest thing that we're doing 1081 01:10:13,470 --> 01:10:20,070 is the aggregating. So if you're if you're looking at, you know, 1082 01:10:20,100 --> 01:10:22,560 if you're looking at building the app you really did, you 1083 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,160 could take that whole thing out of the mix, the only thing I 1084 01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:29,250 think you would really want to think about is how you implement 1085 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:35,640 the API itself. It's very, it's very simple. It's based on an 1086 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:42,090 Amazon style AWS style API authentication mechanism. So you 1087 01:10:42,090 --> 01:10:45,390 can, if you're not familiar with that, you have a key and a 1088 01:10:45,390 --> 01:10:50,850 secret. And then to call the API endpoints, you just basically 1089 01:10:50,850 --> 01:10:54,570 create an authorization header in the HTTP request. And that 1090 01:10:54,570 --> 01:11:02,010 header is a hash of the key, the secret and the Unix timestamp. 1091 01:11:02,430 --> 01:11:05,580 That's current of the current date. And as long as it's within 1092 01:11:05,580 --> 01:11:10,740 a five minute window, that time that that will be fine. So you 1093 01:11:10,740 --> 01:11:12,780 hash those three values together, put it in the 1094 01:11:12,780 --> 01:11:17,190 authorization header, and send that along with the date. And 1095 01:11:17,220 --> 01:11:21,030 the key and the key as as other headers in this in the 1096 01:11:21,030 --> 01:11:24,030 documentation on how to do that. This is the answer some example 1097 01:11:24,030 --> 01:11:28,860 code in there too. But it's very simple, very simple process, as 1098 01:11:28,860 --> 01:11:33,030 long as you know how to add headers to your HTTP request. 1099 01:11:33,180 --> 01:11:36,720 And really, you just get handed back JSON. So if you're, you 1100 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:41,040 know, really, I mean, this could allow you to build an app, a 1101 01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:46,830 podcast, player app, I mean, with very minimal, minimal 1102 01:11:46,830 --> 01:11:50,070 effort and take so take, take marks take overcast, for 1103 01:11:50,070 --> 01:11:53,760 example. There's a whole ton of infrastructure behind overcast, 1104 01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,990 which is what has made makes it a very powerful tool, podcast 1105 01:11:57,990 --> 01:12:04,200 player is in his because he has put in the time to build his own 1106 01:12:04,770 --> 01:12:09,360 aggregator infrastructure behind that. And it's very valuable, 1107 01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:13,500 because then his app on the front on the on the iPhone side 1108 01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:16,680 can be very lean, right? And he's just making calls every now 1109 01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,040 and then to check the status of what's going on. So it's 1110 01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:20,550 basically 1111 01:12:20,550 --> 01:12:23,280 it's basically, we're doing we're replicating a lot of what 1112 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:24,210 Marco has done. 1113 01:12:25,260 --> 01:12:29,400 It's it's similar. I think, the I think the difference, and I 1114 01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:34,800 may be mistaken, but I think on his side, what he is doing is in 1115 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,500 within overcast, if you subscribe, I think he's doing an 1116 01:12:37,500 --> 01:12:43,230 iTunes look up. So if he, if if I'm an overcast user, and I 1117 01:12:43,260 --> 01:12:47,310 searched for a feed, or for a prop for a podcast, and I find 1118 01:12:47,310 --> 01:12:51,510 it, that search is coming from an iTunes, look up, and then if 1119 01:12:51,510 --> 01:12:55,950 I hit Subscribe on that, on that search result, then he says, 1120 01:12:55,950 --> 01:12:59,550 Okay, this, this is a feed I need. So he grabs it and sticks 1121 01:12:59,550 --> 01:13:02,520 it in his database. Now he's got it, aggregating it, got it. So 1122 01:13:02,610 --> 01:13:06,720 if you're talking about a million feeds in, in, you know, 1123 01:13:06,750 --> 01:13:11,070 the iTunes directory, then he may only be in he may only be 1124 01:13:11,070 --> 01:13:16,170 aggregating. I don't know. 25,000. Just right. He's only 1125 01:13:16,170 --> 01:13:19,980 aggregating. Again, I'm guessing this and he can correct me if 1126 01:13:19,980 --> 01:13:23,760 I'm wrong, but I would, I'm assuming based on the way it 1127 01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,670 looks, that he's just aggregating only the fields that 1128 01:13:26,670 --> 01:13:28,770 his his people are interested in 1129 01:13:28,980 --> 01:13:31,950 listeners, well, he's made, he's made a lot of investment. But of 1130 01:13:31,950 --> 01:13:35,910 course, we'd love for him to connect to our system too. I 1131 01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:42,240 mean, maybe has a toggle switch, which is sanitized, crazy world. 1132 01:13:42,659 --> 01:13:45,599 Yeah, that's what we talked about, like heaven. And that's 1133 01:13:45,599 --> 01:13:48,659 what's going to be in. That's that part is not fully 1134 01:13:48,659 --> 01:13:52,409 functional yet. But, you know, part of this is, within the API, 1135 01:13:52,409 --> 01:13:56,519 you can tell it, what format you want the data, the data to be 1136 01:13:56,519 --> 01:13:59,759 returned to you in. So you can say, if you just do, if you just 1137 01:13:59,759 --> 01:14:03,869 do a call, you get back a JSON reply. But if you if you put in 1138 01:14:03,899 --> 01:14:09,059 a Boolean value of, of iTunes, it'll give you back exactly the 1139 01:14:09,059 --> 01:14:12,209 way iTunes would give it back to you. So what we're hoping is 1140 01:14:12,209 --> 01:14:16,139 that people who are using the iTunes API right now for their 1141 01:14:16,139 --> 01:14:19,439 lookups, that they could easily just go in there and just make 1142 01:14:19,649 --> 01:14:21,989 make a couple of changes to the way that they're doing their 1143 01:14:21,989 --> 01:14:26,519 calls, but not change any of the other downstream code. And 1144 01:14:26,699 --> 01:14:29,039 they're going to just be getting basically they're getting the 1145 01:14:29,039 --> 01:14:32,039 exact same results they would get from the iTunes Directory 1146 01:14:32,039 --> 01:14:35,669 API, they would just be getting it from us instead. And that 1147 01:14:35,669 --> 01:14:38,399 way, you know, they can have as a fallback, the you know, you 1148 01:14:38,399 --> 01:14:42,719 can have to that you know, that way so if a failover, so to 1149 01:14:42,719 --> 01:14:43,169 speak. 1150 01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,890 So what I what I hope to have by the next time we record an 1151 01:14:46,890 --> 01:14:51,870 episode is hopefully we'll have a few developers to watch. This 1152 01:14:51,870 --> 01:14:54,180 is really just we're selecting whoever well first of all, 1153 01:14:54,180 --> 01:14:59,790 whoever comes in will be happy. Anyone's raises their hand. I'm 1154 01:14:59,790 --> 01:15:00,480 really Let's 1155 01:15:00,480 --> 01:15:03,000 refresh the page and see a new developer I was gonna be Yeah, 1156 01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:09,570 yeah, you're in. We, I'm looking for creative thinking, you know, 1157 01:15:09,570 --> 01:15:13,560 it's not, it doesn't have to be just a podcast player. For all 1158 01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:16,920 podcasts, there's many different things you can do. I mean, on 1159 01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:20,730 podcast index.org, we have one of my favorite new pastimes, 1160 01:15:20,730 --> 01:15:23,490 which it's crazy that I don't think anyone's really done it 1161 01:15:23,490 --> 01:15:26,880 that way. And there's top 10 lists and featured lists, but 1162 01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:30,690 just most recently updated. Just before we started recording, I 1163 01:15:30,690 --> 01:15:33,450 went, you know, we have a little carousel, as we call it with 1164 01:15:33,660 --> 01:15:39,990 think 10 or 2020 podcasts that have just been updated. And I 1165 01:15:39,990 --> 01:15:44,250 looked at around 11 My time and podcasts of a podcast, it was 1166 01:15:44,310 --> 01:15:48,900 sermons, there was a, it was a couple of rabbis, it was all the 1167 01:15:48,900 --> 01:15:51,750 god casters were just popping by and they all passed, they all 1168 01:15:51,750 --> 01:15:55,140 updated at the same time, it was really fantastic to see that to 1169 01:15:55,140 --> 01:15:58,320 see that scroll by. And, you know, maybe we have some time, 1170 01:15:58,500 --> 01:16:01,080 we could just have a list of like, you know, the most recent 1171 01:16:01,110 --> 01:16:04,650 100 updated, just a list doesn't have to be with images. But 1172 01:16:04,710 --> 01:16:07,650 that's so exciting. Because you listen to stuff like holy shit. 1173 01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,800 I never heard what is this podcast? Yeah, you know, there's 1174 01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:11,280 a lot, 1175 01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:13,740 there's some crazy stuff out there. Yeah, there's a lot of 1176 01:16:13,740 --> 01:16:17,010 weird stuff out there. And a lot of like, I'm just looking at 1177 01:16:17,010 --> 01:16:23,010 one, there's some podcast about Richmond, spiders football. I 1178 01:16:23,010 --> 01:16:25,830 mean, like, Who would have ever, that's something. And that's 1179 01:16:25,830 --> 01:16:28,530 something I think we need to talk about. And I think one of 1180 01:16:28,530 --> 01:16:32,640 the things we're thinking about with this series of of podcasts 1181 01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:36,660 is that these these shows is that we're going to be able to 1182 01:16:37,260 --> 01:16:39,150 this whole thing needs to be transparent. So I think what 1183 01:16:39,150 --> 01:16:41,520 we're thinking is we're going to be able to talk this stuff out 1184 01:16:41,670 --> 01:16:46,290 and build the system, that people that developers would 1185 01:16:46,290 --> 01:16:51,960 need, in real time in front of everybody transparently, where 1186 01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:55,020 people can, you know, you're listening, basically, you're 1187 01:16:55,020 --> 01:16:59,190 listening to us through a lot of this stuff in the open. So it's 1188 01:16:59,190 --> 01:17:01,890 not like, we're going back and doing a bunch of code and then 1189 01:17:01,890 --> 01:17:04,560 saying, Okay, here's this new thing. And don't worry about the 1190 01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,530 way it works, you know, because I'm going to, there's a lot of 1191 01:17:07,530 --> 01:17:12,570 things that, as you hear somebody talk about, and you get 1192 01:17:12,570 --> 01:17:16,050 an idea, it's like, hey, this, this nice, this needs to be 1193 01:17:16,050 --> 01:17:18,630 done. And I've got this great idea for the way this could be 1194 01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:21,000 better. But you would have never come to that conclusion, if you 1195 01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:23,880 have not heard the process discussed openly. So I think 1196 01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,210 that, you know, having, having this outlet to be able to talk 1197 01:17:27,210 --> 01:17:30,780 about well, we'll get into some like, techie, you know, kind of 1198 01:17:30,780 --> 01:17:33,930 like crazy, boring aggregator stuff, you know, in the future, 1199 01:17:33,930 --> 01:17:38,340 as well. And as you hear that stuff talked out, it's, it's 1200 01:17:38,340 --> 01:17:41,730 cool to be able to influence the direction of a product like 1201 01:17:41,730 --> 01:17:43,440 this. Yes, and 1202 01:17:43,440 --> 01:17:49,890 this is so reminiscent of the the original, bootstrapping of 1203 01:17:49,890 --> 01:17:54,780 podcasting. With the developers. I'm a, I'm a listener and a 1204 01:17:54,780 --> 01:17:59,790 podcast creator. So it's, we have pretty much the right 1205 01:17:59,790 --> 01:18:04,050 people at the at the table, but we need to hear the voices, you 1206 01:18:04,050 --> 01:18:07,320 know, we need to we need to get the feedback. We also want to 1207 01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:09,660 feature your apps, you know, if you make something we want to 1208 01:18:09,660 --> 01:18:12,900 feature it so other people can try it out. We'll have a GitHub, 1209 01:18:12,900 --> 01:18:18,390 I guess, where we'll use for, for discussion issues, etc. 1210 01:18:18,870 --> 01:18:23,400 Yeah, documentation, documentation is on the A is on 1211 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,910 the site after you get logged in as a developer, but I'm about to 1212 01:18:26,910 --> 01:18:30,060 put it up on the onto GitHub as well. So you know, there'll be a 1213 01:18:30,060 --> 01:18:32,850 GitHub project that we'll link to, as well. And it'll be open, 1214 01:18:32,850 --> 01:18:35,340 like it won't be behind a behind the registration wall or 1215 01:18:35,340 --> 01:18:39,480 anything. And we're looking at, we're gonna publish the stats 1216 01:18:39,480 --> 01:18:43,170 too. And, you know, think, man, you both have decided that, just 1217 01:18:43,170 --> 01:18:45,600 the more transparent, this whole thing can be the better for 1218 01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:46,590 everybody involved. 1219 01:18:46,710 --> 01:18:50,340 That's the only way it's the only way I'll do it is the only 1220 01:18:50,340 --> 01:18:53,940 way to go. And also, I just want to reiterate, this is we're 1221 01:18:53,940 --> 01:18:56,640 doing this because it's the right thing to do. And we aren't 1222 01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:01,230 actually I think the guys to do it. That's the the core basic 1223 01:19:01,590 --> 01:19:04,890 reason for this project is, hey, we just got to make sure that it 1224 01:19:04,890 --> 01:19:07,230 can be a little rickety, you know, whenever we're going to be 1225 01:19:07,230 --> 01:19:11,250 apple. But who knows, you know, when we don't have to do much, 1226 01:19:11,250 --> 01:19:14,790 we just have to be able to maintain the index, we're 1227 01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:17,820 putting our money where our mouth is, we're helping you to 1228 01:19:17,820 --> 01:19:22,260 do that. But we're a real organization behind the scenes 1229 01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:26,520 whose core mission is also to be creative, and find out if we can 1230 01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:30,330 get ways to get value flowing through these RSS connections. 1231 01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,590 And, and that can many different that can come in many different 1232 01:19:34,590 --> 01:19:37,890 forms. But we might be able to do that and everybody would 1233 01:19:37,890 --> 01:19:41,250 benefit. So that's why we've set it up properly, to set ourselves 1234 01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,970 up for success. If we achieve, you know, our first our first 1235 01:19:44,970 --> 01:19:45,540 goals. 1236 01:19:45,930 --> 01:19:48,240 Yeah, and we're fun. I mean, we're funding this out of our 1237 01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:50,220 own pocket where paying the hosting fees and that kind of 1238 01:19:50,220 --> 01:19:55,020 thing and hope. Hopefully, you've been you have, I would 1239 01:19:55,020 --> 01:19:58,980 say you have almost created single handedly the value for 1240 01:19:58,980 --> 01:20:03,690 value model and shown that it can work. Yes. With the Vortech. 1241 01:20:03,690 --> 01:20:07,620 Of course, yeah, yeah, of course with no agenda and that we want. 1242 01:20:08,010 --> 01:20:10,770 I mean, that's the whole thing is the value for value. We know 1243 01:20:10,770 --> 01:20:14,850 it works. So you know, if it's going to cost us to, you know, 1244 01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:19,710 $200 a month of, of hosting fees, before we even have the 1245 01:20:19,710 --> 01:20:24,960 first developer signed up, if that, if that can become 1246 01:20:25,260 --> 01:20:29,790 something where people can cover cover our fees and free us up to 1247 01:20:29,940 --> 01:20:34,080 to progress the platform. That's, that's great. That's 1248 01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,280 all. That's what this is about. And I mean, we spoke but in 1249 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,100 order to show the commitment to it, we're doing that we're 1250 01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:44,010 funding that ourselves right now. If you start to use it, and 1251 01:20:44,010 --> 01:20:47,640 it's awesome, then, you know, pay it for us. 1252 01:20:48,089 --> 01:20:51,209 Let's upgrade podcasting, everybody. I know there's a lot 1253 01:20:51,209 --> 01:20:53,909 of cool people in this industry, a lot of people have been kind 1254 01:20:53,909 --> 01:20:59,999 of dormant, just kind of seeing it slowly slip away to, to these 1255 01:20:59,999 --> 01:21:03,419 big players who are really whatever in your business. They 1256 01:21:03,419 --> 01:21:06,539 were radio guys, I Heart Radio, I guess they were the ones that 1257 01:21:06,539 --> 01:21:12,299 they buy Stitcher, I think and why they do that is obvious. And 1258 01:21:12,299 --> 01:21:15,149 of course, they allow any other podcast in there, you know, so 1259 01:21:15,149 --> 01:21:18,029 they are basically, you know, they're basically getting a free 1260 01:21:18,029 --> 01:21:20,759 ride on that. Okay, because you get exposure, there's nothing 1261 01:21:20,759 --> 01:21:23,609 wrong with that. But they're doing it because their their 1262 01:21:23,609 --> 01:21:27,449 model is not working so well for them Spotify as well, there, 1263 01:21:27,449 --> 01:21:31,409 they are a music streaming company who has to pay or find a 1264 01:21:31,409 --> 01:21:33,929 way to pay for everything everybody listens to because 1265 01:21:33,929 --> 01:21:38,249 they have to pay these licensing fees. So they want to transform. 1266 01:21:38,579 --> 01:21:42,269 So they want to be HBO or Netflix. And yeah, we're winding 1267 01:21:42,269 --> 01:21:45,059 up with a whole bunch of apps you gotta have to use. But 1268 01:21:45,059 --> 01:21:48,569 wouldn't it be delightful if we could just keep the platform 1269 01:21:48,599 --> 01:21:53,309 open for everybody, for anything I want, I want someone in school 1270 01:21:53,309 --> 01:21:56,099 to be able to say, Hey, man, do a podcast, I want to be able to 1271 01:21:56,099 --> 01:21:59,789 submit a feed to the index, and it work on apps right away, and 1272 01:21:59,789 --> 01:22:02,999 they can enjoy that experience and not have to even go through 1273 01:22:03,239 --> 01:22:06,959 an Apple account, an approval process, none of that it's 1274 01:22:06,959 --> 01:22:10,409 antithetical to the whole idea and the openness of podcasting. 1275 01:22:10,589 --> 01:22:13,679 And it's worth fixing. It's worth metaphases There, it's 1276 01:22:13,679 --> 01:22:17,639 worth a try. And if anything, we wind up with a kick ass database 1277 01:22:17,639 --> 01:22:20,639 that anybody can do something with. And maybe they'll discover 1278 01:22:20,639 --> 01:22:23,369 one day anthropologists will be wondering what the fuck we were 1279 01:22:23,369 --> 01:22:28,949 doing. Did they not know how to write proper RSS? These guys 1280 01:22:28,949 --> 01:22:30,599 were no good. Alright. 1281 01:22:32,580 --> 01:22:39,930 Real Time stats. We the database is 38 gigabytes currently, and 1282 01:22:39,930 --> 01:22:44,040 we have 17 point 3 million episodes of podcasts indexed. 1283 01:22:45,300 --> 01:22:46,080 Those are big numbers. 1284 01:22:46,140 --> 01:22:49,650 And we're counting the stats will also soon be on the 1285 01:22:49,650 --> 01:22:54,030 homepage, podcasts index.org. And email. Are we using info at 1286 01:22:54,030 --> 01:22:57,810 podcast? index.org? Is that what? Yeah, the easiest one for 1287 01:22:57,810 --> 01:23:03,540 us right now. So this being up this podcast, subscribe to it in 1288 01:23:03,540 --> 01:23:07,650 your favorite podcast app, but it probably will hopefully be on 1289 01:23:07,650 --> 01:23:12,540 iTunes database. By the time by the time we put it up. And also, 1290 01:23:12,540 --> 01:23:16,050 they'll be a way for you to sign up. If you have an idea. Just 1291 01:23:16,050 --> 01:23:18,450 want to come hang out. Just kick it around, take a look at it, 1292 01:23:18,570 --> 01:23:22,500 podcast index.org and consider supporting the project as well. 1293 01:23:22,650 --> 01:23:25,350 Dave, I'm really excited about about what's ahead. 1294 01:23:25,830 --> 01:23:28,380 Yeah, it's been fun, and it's gonna be fun. We got a lot of 1295 01:23:28,380 --> 01:23:31,530 stuff to talk about, too. We got we got a crazy long roadmap 1296 01:23:31,530 --> 01:23:33,690 ahead of us. And we haven't we haven't even we haven't even 1297 01:23:34,380 --> 01:23:37,530 talked about scratching the surface yet. You know, we got we 1298 01:23:37,530 --> 01:23:40,650 got a million ideas, and some of them are gonna are really weird. 1299 01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:43,380 And they're gonna, like, we got a lot to talk about. 1300 01:23:43,409 --> 01:23:46,859 I'm very fired up. I have not been this excited in a long 1301 01:23:46,859 --> 01:23:50,309 time. And it's a great project. And I'm so happy that we're 1302 01:23:50,309 --> 01:23:52,379 working on it together. And we have more partners who will be 1303 01:23:52,379 --> 01:23:55,949 introducing on the podcast when appropriate. They'll probably 1304 01:23:55,949 --> 01:23:58,019 want to pop their heads up when we have some success. 1305 01:23:59,819 --> 01:24:03,209 Yeah, we're gonna have success off their head. 1306 01:24:03,390 --> 01:24:05,760 Exactly what protecting the innocent at this point in time. 1307 01:24:05,850 --> 01:24:08,940 Yeah. All right. That's great. We'll talk to you soon, buddy. 1308 01:24:09,540 --> 01:24:11,280 Alright, man. Alright. See ya. All right. We'll talk to 1309 01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:14,760 everybody very soon here on podcast. 2.0 Thank you very much 1310 01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,580 for listening. Subscribe, consider supporting us this 1311 01:24:17,580 --> 01:24:20,850 value podcast. index.org See you next time. Bye bye.